Cyprus-Forum.com

[Bananiot]

So, what is a decent compromise, can you please elaborate on this?

I also find the idea of diving peoples or nations into friends and foes very short of substance. This is third world thinking and extremely unproductive. Respect is more important in terms of international acceptance and it can only be gained by pragmatic and serious politicians who do not offend by their arrogant actions and do not try to trick the international community the way Papadopoulos did. He has thrown Cyprus into isolation and if you are looking for traitors you better start with the head, rather than look for scapecoats in the shape of lowly Bananiot.

[mehmet]

In most cases your friends are only those that you have very very strong historical ties with. The rest will just move and act in a friendly or hostile way depending on their interests. Some times their interests will be complex, so they can act in both friendly and hostile ways at the same time.

But as I explained above the current situation is that Turkey is our enemy. We all wish that this will change of course. We have no benefit to have a country of 60 million as our enemy.[/quote]

Are you saying that Greece is your friend? And by 'your' do you mean yourself personally,Greek Cypriot's in general or all Cypriots?

And when you say Turkey in your enemy; again for you . all GC's or Cypriot's?

[Piratis]

So, what is a decent compromise, can you please elaborate on this?

I elaborated many times. Here is one:
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=211

I also find the idea of diving peoples or nations into friends and foes very short of substance. This is third world thinking and extremely unproductive. Respect is more important in terms of international acceptance and it can only be gained by pragmatic and serious politicians who do not offend by their arrogant actions and do not try to trick the international community the way Papadopoulos did. He has thrown Cyprus into isolation and if you are looking for traitors you better start with the head, rather than look for scapecoats in the shape of lowly Bananiot.

No person with some dignity left in him/her can consider the one who invaded and occupies his country as anything less than an enemy. Even thinking like that is pathetic.

An example: In Greece (and France and Russia etc etc) during world war II and the German occupation there were many that either cooperated with the Nazis, or they simply accepted them as their rulers and did nothing to help their own country. Those people are people like you thinking in the lines of: "They are too powerful, why should I go against them? I will never manage to gain anything more anyways. Kissing their ass might be better". Those people are pathetic to say the least, and for many of them the word traitor suits better.

Are you saying that Greece is your friend? And by 'your' do you mean yourself personally,Greek Cypriot's in general or all Cypriots?

And when you say Turkey in your enemy; again for you . all GC's or Cypriot's?

We are Greek Cypriots and yes, Greece (a democratic one) is our friend because they often sacrifice what would be better for them, and support us for what we think is better for us.
This of course doesn't mean that Greece is an enemy of TC. Actually Greece could be a very close friend to TC if the Cyprus problem didn't exist.

Turkey is our enemy because it illegally occupies part of our country. So for me and the great majority of GC they are an enemy. About TCs I am not sure. On one hand you are Turkish Cypriots so it is natural to have close bonds. On the other hand you are Turkish Cypriots and if you consider the whole Cyprus as your own country then you should also think of Turkey as an occupying force.

The difference between Greece and Turkey in Cyprus is that Greece supports us because we are Greek Cypriots but beyond that it has little interest in Cyprus. On the other hand Turkey seems to have strategic and other interests in Cyprus (military, Baku-Ceyhan pipeline etc) and these interests seem to be a higher priority for them than the interests and the well being of Turkish Cypriots.

[mehmet]

We both agree that we prefer democrcy to military rule. It's ironic that Greek military rule came to an end because of Turkish military action in Cyprus but the two events are directly related. There would have been no Turkish military action in Cyprus if Greece stayed out of Cyprus politics in the years before 1974. I don't think that could be disputed either. So while I can understand your unhappiness about Turkish involvement in Cyprus I hope you are honest enough to admit that Turkey was reacting to what was happening to Turkish Cypriots and what had happpened to Turkish Cypriots.

If after all this I should see Greece as my friend, is it too much for Greek Cypriots to at least stop seeing Turkey as the enemy and see it as a necessary part of the solution?

Personally I am prepared to forgive Greece for destabilising Cyprus after all these years, even though todays situation is directly related to their actions in the past.

[Bananiot]

OK Piratis, I have read your views and I am glad you are proposing a negotiated solution to the cy prob. However, I am amazed to see all this contradiction on your behalf. So, you are prepared to negotiate with the "enemy" in order to reach a settlement which undoubtedly will be taking into account the results of the invasion. That is not pathetic and obviously you think there is dignity in this line of action. May be it would be more appropriate if you suggested some form of indifada. Such action would be more consistent with your "enemy" theory, don't you think?

May I also remind you that Greece sited the same reasons to invade Turkey in 1919, that is to protect the Greek minority of Asia Minor. Yes, it's a messy business and riding the morality high grounds is not always the best way forward.

[michalis5354]

Dont you agree Piratis that the 76% of No voters ought to have clearly explained and proposed alternative federal plans to the UN? As you have done! But I am afraid Papadopoluos does not share your approach and attitude on things!

Why is he sitting Back ? He leaves everyone confused and uncertain as to the real intensive of Greekcypriots.Cyprus problem is our problem not foreigners problem. Talat made it very clear that he does not wish the TRNC to be recognised and to work towards a settlement this is a step forward . I wish I had seen a similar step by Papadopoulos.

I can understand that in Turkey there are conflicting and different views but it is natural for every country to see also their own interests on foreign issues.

[Piratis]

So while I can understand your unhappiness about Turkish involvement in Cyprus I hope you are honest enough to admit that Turkey was reacting to what was happening to Turkish Cypriots and what had happened to Turkish Cypriots.

As I said numerous times, if Turkey intervened in Cyprus, restored order and then left, today we would all together celebrate that day and thank Turkey for what it did for us (don't forget that the people that made the coup where mainly killing Greek Cypriots that resisted). Unfortunately this is not what happened. Turkey used the coup as an excuse to invade and occupy part of Cyprus.

If after all this I should see Greece as my friend, is it too much for Greek Cypriots to at least stop seeing Turkey as the enemy and see it as a necessary part of the solution?

If Greece did something bad to you, this happened 30 years ago. The generals that where in charge at that time in Greece went to jail and democracy was restored.
On the other hand Turkey continues today to occupy part of Cyprus and deny to the legal owners their rights.
If Turkey followed what Greece did, even with 30 years delay, then yes, we would forgive and move ahead.

OK Piratis, I have read your views and I am glad you are proposing a negotiated solution to the cy prob. However, I am amazed to see all this contradiction on your behalf. So, you are prepared to negotiate with the "enemy" in order to reach a settlement which undoubtedly will be taking into account the results of the invasion. That is not pathetic and obviously you think there is dignity in this line of action. May be it would be more appropriate if you suggested some form of intifada. Such action would be more consistent with your "enemy" theory, don't you think?

There is no contradiction. What I ask for is a dignified compromise. What you ask for has no dignity, and "intifada" has no element of compromise.

Also, this "dignified compromise" will not be better only because it will be dignified, it will be better because it will be more fair, more functional and therefore will have much greater chances of being viable. Otherwise everything will collapse sooner than later again.

You might say that the Annan partition plan is the best we can get and nothing better will ever come. If this is the case, and we decided that we will never manage to unite Cyprus then better to agree on two separate countries with return of some land to us. This way we will at least be saved from economic disaster and many other problems that the very fragile and dysfunctional solution based on Annan plan would bring.

[mehmet]

I agree Cyprus problem has been unresolved too long. If Turkey had left after first ceasefire RoC would continue to function without Turkish CYpriot involvement, Makarios would have returned a hero to become as head of state and as Turkish Cypriots we would have faced the anger of those who were defeated and who would have been our neighbours. Do you seriously believe that Turkish Cypriots would have been safe and treated better than they were before Sampson overthrow RoC with support of Greek colonels?

Like I said problem has been unresolved too long and Turkey's intersts are not necessarily Turkish Cypriot interests, don't forget that Greek Cypriot's had been telling us their interests were the same as Greek interests for a long time.

[insan]

Mehmet,

Nothing would had been like you said... EOKA-B continued massacre TCs in Limassol, Paphos, Alaminos, Maratha, Sandalaris and Atlilar even after 24th of July when Sampson was arrested and Klerides appointed as a new president of RoC.

Violence Continues
After the Turkish landings it was argued by the Greek-Cypriots that even if the first landing was legal the extension of the area under Turkish control from 22nd July to 16th August 1974 was illegal since there was no longer and subsisting breach of the Treaty. However, the facts do not support this view, because large scale murders of Turkish-Cypriot families continued to take place, particularly in the villages of Aloa (Times, Guardian, 21st August), Zyyi, Sandallaris, Mari, Maratha, and Tokhni, and again despite the presence in Cyprus of UN troops. In Tokhni on 14th August 1974 all the Turkish-Cypriot men between the ages of 13 and 74, except for eighteen who managed to escape, were taken away and shot.

In Zyyi on the same day all the Turkish-Cypriot men aged between 19 and 28 were taken away by Greek-Cypriots and were never seen again. On the same day Greek-Cypriots opened fire in the Turkish-Cypriot neighbourhood of Paphos killing men, women and children indiscriminately. On 23rd July 1974 the Washington Post reported "In a Greek raid on a small Turkish village near Limassol 36 people out of a population of 200 were killed. The Greeks said that they had been given orders to kill the inhabitants of the Turkish villages before the Turkish forces arrived." (See also Times, Guardian, 23rd July).

On 24th July 1974 France Soir reported "The Greeks burned down Turkish mosques and set fire to Turkish homes in the villages around Famagusta. Defenseless Turkish villagers who have no weapons live in an atmosphere of terror and they evacuate their homes and go and live in tents in the forests. The Greeks' actions are a shame to humanity." On 28th July the New York Times reported that 14 Turkish-Cypriot men had been shot in Alaminos.

The "Republic had once again failed to maintain respect for the constitution

That's why second peace operation of Turkish army took place in August. Otherwise it was obvious that more massacres would had taken place onwards.

On 22nd July Ecevit called upon the UN to "stop the genocide of Turkish-Cypriots" and declared "Turkey has accepted a cease-fire, but will not allow Turkish-Cypriots to be massacred." (Times 23rd July). On 29th July he was reported by the Daily Telegraph as follows: "Security on paper will not satisfy us. Every Turk in every corner of the island must feel at home. This we regard as an inalienable human right. So called security measures which have left Turkish-Cypriots in fear of attack and massacre are no good." The German newspaper Die Zeit wrote on 30th August 1974 "the massacre of Turks in Paphos and Famagusta is the proof of how justified the Turks were to undertake their second intervention".

In any event military action never really ceased between 20th July and 16th August. The Greeks and Greek-Cypriots continued to lay mines and construct strongpoints around the Turkish positions, and the Turks continued to reinforce their troops and to send out patrols.

In that position Turkish forces were not secure, and could certainly not protect the siege in Famagusta. On 8th August the Guardian reported that they had been under sustained mortar attack for 20 days, and on 17th August the Daily Telegraph reported that in the first three days of the siege an estimated 2,000 mortar bombs had fallen on them. Accordingly the Turkish army moved our of its bridgehead and advanced upon Famagusta with the object of rescuing the Turkish-Cypriot population of Famagusta and of securing a viable defensive position. The siege of Famagusta was lifted on 16th August.

The House of Commons Select Committee on Cyprus reported in 1976 "The second phase of military operations was inevitable in the view of your committee as the position reached by the Turkish forces at the time of the first cease-fire was untenable militarily and they needed tanks and armour to consolidate their position and secure Famagusta."

Regarding the restoration of constitutional order; neither of the two parties were believing that a bi-communal unitary state would be viable anymore, so they made two important agreements in 1975(Exchange of population agreement between Makarios and Denktash... though GCs claim that they were driven away from their houses by force) , 77 and 79.

Having regard to the events of 1960 and 1974 no serious section of Cypriot opinion, whether Greek or Turk, regards re-establishment of the 1960 Constitution itself as practical, and indeed on 12th February 1977 Makarios and Denktas agreed that thenceforth they were seeking a bi-communal federal Republic. This was reaffirmed by Kyprianou, successor to Makarios, in 1979, and was even the view of the British Foreign Secretary, who answered "yes" to the following question from the House of Commons Select Committee on Cyprus (HC. 331 1975/76, page 55 para, 141):

"Would the Foreign Secretary agree that we could hardly restore the 1960 Constitution, since at least two of the provisions which were enshrined in the Constitution, the separate municipalities and the Turkish (Cypriot) share of the police and civil service, were never in fact implemented?"

Although it is impossible to re-establish the 1960 Constitution itself it continues however to be practical to re-establish the 1960 state of affairs in substance, namely respect for the human rights of all Cypriots and respect for the existence of both communities as political entities, and in the meantime for the most basic right of all, namely the right to live in peace, to be guaranteed. It would be absurd to argue that by making it impossible the re-establish the 1960 state of affairs in its entirety, Greeks and Greek-Cypriots could deprive Turkey of its right to guarantee the survival of the Turkish-Cypriot community.

Piratis,

It is not only Turkeys fault to have not been reached a solution onwards 1974...

At the first Geneva Conference on 30th July 1974, Turkey, Greece and the United Kingdom acknowledged the existence in Cyprus of two autonomous administrations representing the Turkish-Cypriots and the Greek-Cypriots respectively, and it was agreed that negotiations should be carried on to secure a workable constitution for Cyprus as a whole. Since then the leaders of the two communities have held frequent talks. In 1978 the Turkish-Cypriots proposed the reopening of the Famagusta suburb of Varosha which contains many hotels and had lain derelict since 1974, provided Nicosia airport was opened to all, but this was rejected.

The 1984 draft framework agreement had been prepared by an exhaustive series of talks under the auspices of the Secretary General, and the Turkish-Cypriots were assured by him that the document, dated 27th November 1984, was acceptable to the Greek-Cypriots. On that basis the Turkish-Cypriots agreed to go to the UN to sign it, but when Denktas arrived in New York he found that Kyprianou wished to re-negotiate it.

Kyprianou's announcement at the Summit surprised even his own people, and on his return home a motion censure upon him was passed by the Greek-Cypriot House of Representatives. In the course of the debate Mr. Clerides, leader of the Democratic Rally Party said:

"Right from the first day of the meeting, Kypranou asked for the re-negotiation of everything from A to Z. Among the points he asked to re-negotiate were issues that did not fall within the scope of the Summit, and issues which were already discussed and agreed upon. He should not have brought forth again issues already debated and agreed upon with Denktas."

In the same debate Mr. Papaiannou, Secretary-General of the AKEL party, said: "Kyprianou never adopted the basis of the federation, which was agreed upon by Makarios and Denktas, and Kyprianou never exerted any effort for the solution of the Cyprus problem on the basis of a federation. Kyprianou never respected the Summit agreements."

As you see dear Piratis some GC authorities have responsibilities not have been able to reached a just and viable solution.


What GC administration dreams of is that to make TCs a minority like Turks in Greece or any other minorities in Cyprus which perhaps are only 1/20 in compare with TCs population.


Regarding the percentage of communal rights:

Yes.. it has to be proportional... To take more representation than our population percentage is not fair. It's a discrimination. Klerides and Denktash had agreed on proportional representation and participatioon on every organization of RoC in 1971.


Regarding with the presence of foreign troops(Turkish, Greek, UN) in Cyprus:


A mutualy agreeed numbers of foreign forces should be maintained in Cyprus till two communities get along fairly good with each other. Then a referandum can be held and two communities decide foreign forces presence in Cyprus.



Regarding the settlers:

All unregistered settlers must be sent back to their countries. All others who had been brung 30-20 years ago must be granted the UCR citizenship. They are just 45 thousand settlers who are already registered as TRNC citizens. The other 75 thousands of settlers are their children or grandchildren who were born in Cyprus.



The presence of 120.000 settlers in Cyprus don't create any political risks for both communities because it has been clearly seen that just %3-5 of the settlers voted for the parties that have been founded by settlers. Overwhelming majority of settlers voted for the TC parties and there are 4-5 settler MPs in Norths parliament.


Regarding the properties have been being occupied by settlers:


They must be helped, provided debt to either buy the house they illegaly occupy or build a new house. The full entitlement of the properties which illegaly occupied by settlers must be given back to the real owners. They either sell, rent or settle down it.

A mutualy agreed limitation must be put on refugees who will return back to settle down their properties due to bi-zonality.


Regarding the political rights of Turkish constituent state citizens:

The full political rights of GCs who would live under the laws of Turkish constituent state must be given in a mutualy agreed time period when they have learned each others language and get along fairly good with each other. Otherwise they will face with lot of big difficulties to communicate each other and it won't be viable.

[Piratis]

Before I comment, can you please tell me from where you got those quotes? We have many sites that put together quotes from a billion places (whatever suits them) and present them like they are history.
Because you can find many US/UK newspapers today that try to put down our president, this doesn't mean in 10 years from now you can use what those papers wrote and present it as history.

Anyways, since you like quotes here is one more:

RESOLUTION 3212 (XXIX)
The General Assembly adopted on the evening of 1st November, 1974, resolution 3212 (XXIX) by 117 votes in favor, none against and no abstentions.

The resolution reads as follows:

The General Assembly,

Having considered the question of Cyprus,

Gravely concerned about the continuation of the Cyprus crisis, which constitutes a threat to international peace and security,

Mindful of the need to solve this crisis without delay by peaceful means, in accordance with the purposes and principles of the United Nations

Having heard the statements in the debate and taking note of the Report of the Special Political Committee on the Question of Cyprus,

Calls upon all states to respect the sovereignty, independence, territorial integrity and non-alignment of the Republic of Cyprus and to refrain from all acts and interventions directed against it;

Urges the speedy withdrawal of all foreign armed forces and foreign military presence and personnel from the Republic of Cyprus and the cessation of all foreign interference in its affairs;

Considers that the constitutional system of the Republic of Cyprus concerns the Greek-Cypriot and Turkish-Cypriot communities;

Commends the contacts and negotiations taking place on an equal footing, with the good offices of the Secretary-General between the representatives of the two communities, and calls for their continuation with a view to reaching freely a mutually acceptable political settlement, based on their fundamental and legitimate rights;

Considers that all the refugees should return to their homes in safety and calls upon the parties concerned to undertake urgent measures to that end:

Expresses the hope that, if necessary, further efforts including negotiations can take place, within the framework of the United Nations, for the purpose of implementing the provisions of the present resolution, thus ensuring to the Republic of Cyprus its fundamental right to independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity;

Requests the Secretary-General to continue to provide United Nations humanitarian assistance to all parts of the population of Cyprus and calls upon all states to contribute to that effort;

Calls upon all parties to continue to cooperate fully with the United Nations Peace-Keeping Force in Cyprus, which may be strengthened if necessary;

Requests the Secretary-General to continue to lend his good offices to the parties concerned;

Further requests the Secretary-General to bring the present resolution to the attention of the Security Council.