Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

Even before anything has been agreed like a true GCs your are immediately trying to worm your way out, we should therefore ask for safeguards against this sort of action which would act as a deterrant as this was what happened in the past.

That's why I always insist on a Fair & Just settlement and not try and have a forced settlement where you want advantages and privileges at the expense of your fellow citizens as the case was in 1960 and the AP in 2004. If you do, then don't blame others for exercise their democratic and constitutional rights to claim justice and equality, if you have any idea what those are, and based on your postings here on the forum, you have very little idea. In a true democracy, everything is challengeable, even all the "safeguards" you ask for, if they deem to be unconstitutional, therefore be careful what you ask for and be sure that it can benefit all Cypriots and not just yourself at the expense of others democratic and constitutional rights, because I doubt there will be any articles in the constitution as before where dozens of articles were in perpetuity as the case was in 1960 and could not be amended. Even those did not save the day for Cyprus, so don’t expect any “funny business” in today’s EU member Cyprus..!

Very eloquently put Kikapu. I wish I had that gift. I often wondered wat these safeguards would be, but for some it is a military presence - and that is what they call democracy.

Really there are no safeguards in democracies? Then how do we protect the poor from the rich, the tenant from the landlord and the population from monopolies? Are we not infringing on the human rights of the rich, the landlords and the monopolies?

The fact that TCs need to be protected is no different to any other democracy. Remove safeguards and you end up with jungle rule, and we know where that leads to.

EU laws are not what you imagined them. Anything agreed here will not be challenged in any way by the EU. If anything the EU is saying FFS agree and get on with it.

Ok, I hear what you say, or should I say, that I read what you write, but are you saying that the EU will not act as an overseer as to the proper conduct of the majority over the 'minority'? Can not this be enshrined into any agreement between the two parties so that in the unhappy event of any disagreement, a body within the EU will act as arbitrator. I can not see how this can not be achieved. To me, it will achieve a dual purpose. One is what we are talking about and the other is the shadow of Turkeys military might.( which seems a bone of contention here.) IMO

That would work in ordinary circumstances, when it comes to cyprus, TCs will only trust the safeguards given by Turkey. If that is the case the GCs will have to respect it otherwise there is no solution. Two states it will be sooner or later.

I think you must have been asleep in 2004, but that question has been answered with a NO vote on the AP. Besides, Turkey never had the role of being a guarantor for the TCs exclusively, but rather guarantorship of all Cypriots. Looks like they failed to keep their end of the bargain by about 4:1 ratio, or 80%-20% wouldn't you say, and now you want the that same 80% to say YES to Turkey who failed to protect them just because the 20% is happy to have gotten 50% more land than they ever had with the help of the Turkish Army.!

I tell you what, if the GCs agree with you and go along with your wishes to have Turkey as a guarantor, they are far better people than the TCs made them out to be, but somehow, if I were you, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting. As for your 2 state independent outcome of no solution, then I have some Ocean front property for sale in Arizona for you that's real cheap.!

Let them say no again. Interesting time the next 12 moths that’s for sure.
Arizona land, was it stolen from the indians by any chance?

They don't have to say NO to anything, just not show up, because they have couple of trump cards under their sleeves.. All they have to do is refuse Turkeys guarantorship and ask for the removal of all the troops and it will be you who would be saying NO.!


As for the land in Arizona, it once did belong to the Native Americans and the Mexicans, so it's your chance to buy some stolen land that you seem to support such practices in the north, in the 21st century.!

[YFred]

Even before anything has been agreed like a true GCs your are immediately trying to worm your way out, we should therefore ask for safeguards against this sort of action which would act as a deterrant as this was what happened in the past.

That's why I always insist on a Fair & Just settlement and not try and have a forced settlement where you want advantages and privileges at the expense of your fellow citizens as the case was in 1960 and the AP in 2004. If you do, then don't blame others for exercise their democratic and constitutional rights to claim justice and equality, if you have any idea what those are, and based on your postings here on the forum, you have very little idea. In a true democracy, everything is challengeable, even all the "safeguards" you ask for, if they deem to be unconstitutional, therefore be careful what you ask for and be sure that it can benefit all Cypriots and not just yourself at the expense of others democratic and constitutional rights, because I doubt there will be any articles in the constitution as before where dozens of articles were in perpetuity as the case was in 1960 and could not be amended. Even those did not save the day for Cyprus, so don’t expect any “funny business” in today’s EU member Cyprus..!

Very eloquently put Kikapu. I wish I had that gift. I often wondered wat these safeguards would be, but for some it is a military presence - and that is what they call democracy.

Really there are no safeguards in democracies? Then how do we protect the poor from the rich, the tenant from the landlord and the population from monopolies? Are we not infringing on the human rights of the rich, the landlords and the monopolies?

The fact that TCs need to be protected is no different to any other democracy. Remove safeguards and you end up with jungle rule, and we know where that leads to.

EU laws are not what you imagined them. Anything agreed here will not be challenged in any way by the EU. If anything the EU is saying FFS agree and get on with it.

Ok, I hear what you say, or should I say, that I read what you write, but are you saying that the EU will not act as an overseer as to the proper conduct of the majority over the 'minority'? Can not this be enshrined into any agreement between the two parties so that in the unhappy event of any disagreement, a body within the EU will act as arbitrator. I can not see how this can not be achieved. To me, it will achieve a dual purpose. One is what we are talking about and the other is the shadow of Turkeys military might.( which seems a bone of contention here.) IMO

That would work in ordinary circumstances, when it comes to cyprus, TCs will only trust the safeguards given by Turkey. If that is the case the GCs will have to respect it otherwise there is no solution. Two states it will be sooner or later.

I think you must have been asleep in 2004, but that question has been answered with a NO vote on the AP. Besides, Turkey never had the role of being a guarantor for the TCs exclusively, but rather guarantorship of all Cypriots. Looks like they failed to keep their end of the bargain by about 4:1 ratio, or 80%-20% wouldn't you say, and now you want the that same 80% to say YES to Turkey who failed to protect them just because the 20% is happy to have gotten 50% more land than they ever had with the help of the Turkish Army.!

I tell you what, if the GCs agree with you and go along with your wishes to have Turkey as a guarantor, they are far better people than the TCs made them out to be, but somehow, if I were you, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting. As for your 2 state independent outcome of no solution, then I have some Ocean front property for sale in Arizona for you that's real cheap.!

Let them say no again. Interesting time the next 12 moths that’s for sure.
Arizona land, was it stolen from the indians by any chance?

They don't have to say NO to anything, just not show up, because they have couple of trump cards under their sleeves.. All they have to do is refuse Turkeys guarantorship and ask for the removal of all the troops and it will be you who would be saying NO.!


As for the land in Arizona, it once did belong to the Native Americans and the Mexicans, so it's your chance to buy some stolen land that you seem to support such practices in the north, in the 21st century.!

Regarding, Showing up, they can do what they like. Time is against them.
Regarding Turkey, the guaranty will remain unless TCs ask for it to be romoved.

Regarding land, you really don't get it. You need to step back, think about the assumtions you make. You can check what I have said. You can even send one of your GC palls to speak to a farmer on the east side of the electric pylons and ask them who they are and whose land they are using. It is very easy to prove becasue the local agreement has not changed to this day.
I support the activities on the TCs because they had no other choice. It was not their choice that there has been no agreement for 35 years. It takes two to tango. The roc is just as guilty as Dengtash was regarding no agreement.
Things are not as clear cut as you make them out to be.

[T_C]

If the situation is as Kikapu says then what exactly is the point in these negotiations, and more so in BBF?!?!

Why go through the hassle of devising a BBF if the TCs are just going to be a minority with minority rights? It would be pointless!

If that was the case, the only solution the EU would accept would be a unitary state...think about it!

[YFred]

If the situation is as Kikapu says then what exactly is the point in these negotiations, and more so in BBF?!?!

Why go through the hassle of devising a BBF if the TCs are just going to be a minority with minority rights? It would be pointless!

If that was the case, the only solution the EU would accept would be a unitary state...think about it!

Absolutely right, and as the EU support the negotiations, then the EU will have no problems with the agreement. It is logical, but our Kickapoo is far from logical. He has inherited some Hellenic ideas and just can't break away from them. Unitary state is dead. It will not come back. It has been accepted by both sides.

[zan]

If the situation is as Kikapu says then what exactly is the point in these negotiations, and more so in BBF?!?!

Why go through the hassle of devising a BBF if the TCs are just going to be a minority with minority rights? It would be pointless!

If that was the case, the only solution the EU would accept would be a unitary state...think about it!

Don't go there T_C.......His little world will have you taking pills from a nurse in Lilac robes

[Viewpoint]

If the situation is as Kikapu says then what exactly is the point in these negotiations, and more so in BBF?!?!

Why go through the hassle of devising a BBF if the TCs are just going to be a minority with minority rights? It would be pointless!

If that was the case, the only solution the EU would accept would be a unitary state...think about it!

Don't go there T_C.......His little world will have you taking pills from a nurse in Lilac robes

But TC makes a valid point should be not be proactive and demand that the EU will not take seriously any attempts by the GCs to change and new solution that both sides commit to as the alternative will only be a repeat of the past.

[Kikapu]

If the situation is as Kikapu says then what exactly is the point in these negotiations, and more so in BBF?!?!

Why go through the hassle of devising a BBF if the TCs are just going to be a minority with minority rights? It would be pointless!

If that was the case, the only solution the EU would accept would be a unitary state...think about it!

Hello T_C,

Where the hell did you get the idea that I'm talking about a Unitary state and not BBF as in True Federation. It is the NeoPartitionist on this forum who seem to think that BBF means 2 independent states of equal stature which makes the north an absolute TC state and the south an absolute GC state and that each can have independent Bi-lateral foreign policy agreements with another foreign power and at some point they can walk away and become independent country. Now T_C, if you think my definition of BBF means a minority status for the TCs, then you got me mixed up with someone else as to what I want. It is all these NeoPartitonists that are crying for minority status by asking for special rights which are given to minorities and not to those who just want to be equal citizens to everyone else. These bozos are begging to become a minority in the new Cyprus. Go and complain to these nut cases as to why they want to become a minority and not 100% equal citizens without special privileges which are only given to minorities as minority rights.

[YFred]

If the situation is as Kikapu says then what exactly is the point in these negotiations, and more so in BBF?!?!

Why go through the hassle of devising a BBF if the TCs are just going to be a minority with minority rights? It would be pointless!

If that was the case, the only solution the EU would accept would be a unitary state...think about it!

Don't go there T_C.......His little world will have you taking pills from a nurse in Lilac robes

How come he never sent me the nurse then?
Its not fair.

[Viewpoint]

If the situation is as Kikapu says then what exactly is the point in these negotiations, and more so in BBF?!?!

Why go through the hassle of devising a BBF if the TCs are just going to be a minority with minority rights? It would be pointless!

If that was the case, the only solution the EU would accept would be a unitary state...think about it!

Hello T_C,

Where the hell did you get the idea that I'm talking about a Unitary state and not BBF as in True Federation. It is the NeoPartitionist on this forum who seem to think that BBF means 2 independent states of equal stature which makes the north an absolute TC state and the south an absolute GC state and that each can have independent Bi-lateral foreign policy agreements with another foreign power and at some point they can walk away and become independent country. Now T_C, if you think my definition of BBF means a minority status for the TCs, then you got me mixed up with someone else as to what I want. It is all these NeoPartitonists that are crying for minority status by asking for special rights which are given to minorities and not to those who just want to be equal citizens to everyone else. These bozos are begging to become a minority in the new Cyprus. Go and complain to these nut cases as to why they want to become a minority and not 100% equal citizens without special privileges which are only given to minorities as minority rights.

Twist and turn...you are still trying to sell us minority rights everyone can see that...go to hell cause thats where you have a one way ticket to and belong.

[B25]

Kiks, I think you have really rattled their cage, especially the venomous Person (VP) one.

Go man Kik some arse, they can't take it when its the truth. The fear decency, democracy, human rights and freedom.

Can't really blame them I suppose, as they have grown up with criminals and thats all they know. Go man go!