Cyprus-Forum.com

[denizaksulu]

Even before anything has been agreed like a true GCs your are immediately trying to worm your way out, we should therefore ask for safeguards against this sort of action which would act as a deterrant as this was what happened in the past.

That's why I always insist on a Fair & Just settlement and not try and have a forced settlement where you want advantages and privileges at the expense of your fellow citizens as the case was in 1960 and the AP in 2004. If you do, then don't blame others for exercise their democratic and constitutional rights to claim justice and equality, if you have any idea what those are, and based on your postings here on the forum, you have very little idea. In a true democracy, everything is challengeable, even all the "safeguards" you ask for, if they deem to be unconstitutional, therefore be careful what you ask for and be sure that it can benefit all Cypriots and not just yourself at the expense of others democratic and constitutional rights, because I doubt there will be any articles in the constitution as before where dozens of articles were in perpetuity as the case was in 1960 and could not be amended. Even those did not save the day for Cyprus, so don’t expect any “funny business” in today’s EU member Cyprus..!

Very eloquently put Kikapu. I wish I had that gift. I often wondered wat these safeguards would be, but for some it is a military presence - and that is what they call democracy.

[YFred]

Even before anything has been agreed like a true GCs your are immediately trying to worm your way out, we should therefore ask for safeguards against this sort of action which would act as a deterrant as this was what happened in the past.

That's why I always insist on a Fair & Just settlement and not try and have a forced settlement where you want advantages and privileges at the expense of your fellow citizens as the case was in 1960 and the AP in 2004. If you do, then don't blame others for exercise their democratic and constitutional rights to claim justice and equality, if you have any idea what those are, and based on your postings here on the forum, you have very little idea. In a true democracy, everything is challengeable, even all the "safeguards" you ask for, if they deem to be unconstitutional, therefore be careful what you ask for and be sure that it can benefit all Cypriots and not just yourself at the expense of others democratic and constitutional rights, because I doubt there will be any articles in the constitution as before where dozens of articles were in perpetuity as the case was in 1960 and could not be amended. Even those did not save the day for Cyprus, so don’t expect any “funny business” in today’s EU member Cyprus..!

Very eloquently put Kikapu. I wish I had that gift. I often wondered wat these safeguards would be, but for some it is a military presence - and that is what they call democracy.

Really there are no safeguards in democracies? Then how do we protect the poor from the rich, the tenant from the landlord and the population from monopolies? Are we not infringing on the human rights of the rich, the landlords and the monopolies?

The fact that TCs need to be protected is no different to any other democracy. Remove safeguards and you end up with jungle rule, and we know where that leads to.

EU laws are not what you imagined them. Anything agreed here will not be challenged in any way by the EU. If anything the EU is saying FFS agree and get on with it.

[denizaksulu]

Even before anything has been agreed like a true GCs your are immediately trying to worm your way out, we should therefore ask for safeguards against this sort of action which would act as a deterrant as this was what happened in the past.

That's why I always insist on a Fair & Just settlement and not try and have a forced settlement where you want advantages and privileges at the expense of your fellow citizens as the case was in 1960 and the AP in 2004. If you do, then don't blame others for exercise their democratic and constitutional rights to claim justice and equality, if you have any idea what those are, and based on your postings here on the forum, you have very little idea. In a true democracy, everything is challengeable, even all the "safeguards" you ask for, if they deem to be unconstitutional, therefore be careful what you ask for and be sure that it can benefit all Cypriots and not just yourself at the expense of others democratic and constitutional rights, because I doubt there will be any articles in the constitution as before where dozens of articles were in perpetuity as the case was in 1960 and could not be amended. Even those did not save the day for Cyprus, so don’t expect any “funny business” in today’s EU member Cyprus..!

Very eloquently put Kikapu. I wish I had that gift. I often wondered wat these safeguards would be, but for some it is a military presence - and that is what they call democracy.

Really there are no safeguards in democracies? Then how do we protect the poor from the rich, the tenant from the landlord and the population from monopolies? Are we not infringing on the human rights of the rich, the landlords and the monopolies?

The fact that TCs need to be protected is no different to any other democracy. Remove safeguards and you end up with jungle rule, and we know where that leads to.

EU laws are not what you imagined them. Anything agreed here will not be challenged in any way by the EU. If anything the EU is saying FFS agree and get on with it.

Ok, I hear what you say, or should I say, that I read what you write, but are you saying that the EU will not act as an overseer as to the proper conduct of the majority over the 'minority'? Can not this be enshrined into any agreement between the two parties so that in the unhappy event of any disagreement, a body within the EU will act as arbitrator. I can not see how this can not be achieved. To me, it will achieve a dual purpose. One is what we are talking about and the other is the shadow of Turkeys military might.( which seems a bone of contention here.) IMO

[YFred]

Even before anything has been agreed like a true GCs your are immediately trying to worm your way out, we should therefore ask for safeguards against this sort of action which would act as a deterrant as this was what happened in the past.

That's why I always insist on a Fair & Just settlement and not try and have a forced settlement where you want advantages and privileges at the expense of your fellow citizens as the case was in 1960 and the AP in 2004. If you do, then don't blame others for exercise their democratic and constitutional rights to claim justice and equality, if you have any idea what those are, and based on your postings here on the forum, you have very little idea. In a true democracy, everything is challengeable, even all the "safeguards" you ask for, if they deem to be unconstitutional, therefore be careful what you ask for and be sure that it can benefit all Cypriots and not just yourself at the expense of others democratic and constitutional rights, because I doubt there will be any articles in the constitution as before where dozens of articles were in perpetuity as the case was in 1960 and could not be amended. Even those did not save the day for Cyprus, so don’t expect any “funny business” in today’s EU member Cyprus..!

Very eloquently put Kikapu. I wish I had that gift. I often wondered wat these safeguards would be, but for some it is a military presence - and that is what they call democracy.

Really there are no safeguards in democracies? Then how do we protect the poor from the rich, the tenant from the landlord and the population from monopolies? Are we not infringing on the human rights of the rich, the landlords and the monopolies?

The fact that TCs need to be protected is no different to any other democracy. Remove safeguards and you end up with jungle rule, and we know where that leads to.

EU laws are not what you imagined them. Anything agreed here will not be challenged in any way by the EU. If anything the EU is saying FFS agree and get on with it.

Ok, I hear what you say, or should I say, that I read what you write, but are you saying that the EU will not act as an overseer as to the proper conduct of the majority over the 'minority'? Can not this be enshrined into any agreement between the two parties so that in the unhappy event of any disagreement, a body within the EU will act as arbitrator. I can not see how this can not be achieved. To me, it will achieve a dual purpose. One is what we are talking about and the other is the shadow of Turkeys military might.( which seems a bone of contention here.) IMO

That would work in ordinary circumstances, when it comes to cyprus, TCs will only trust the safeguards given by Turkey. If that is the case the GCs will have to respect it otherwise there is no solution. Two states it will be sooner or later.

[Kikapu]

Even before anything has been agreed like a true GCs your are immediately trying to worm your way out, we should therefore ask for safeguards against this sort of action which would act as a deterrant as this was what happened in the past.

That's why I always insist on a Fair & Just settlement and not try and have a forced settlement where you want advantages and privileges at the expense of your fellow citizens as the case was in 1960 and the AP in 2004. If you do, then don't blame others for exercise their democratic and constitutional rights to claim justice and equality, if you have any idea what those are, and based on your postings here on the forum, you have very little idea. In a true democracy, everything is challengeable, even all the "safeguards" you ask for, if they deem to be unconstitutional, therefore be careful what you ask for and be sure that it can benefit all Cypriots and not just yourself at the expense of others democratic and constitutional rights, because I doubt there will be any articles in the constitution as before where dozens of articles were in perpetuity as the case was in 1960 and could not be amended. Even those did not save the day for Cyprus, so don’t expect any “funny business” in today’s EU member Cyprus..!

Very eloquently put Kikapu. I wish I had that gift. I often wondered wat these safeguards would be, but for some it is a military presence - and that is what they call democracy.

Really there are no safeguards in democracies? Then how do we protect the poor from the rich, the tenant from the landlord and the population from monopolies? Are we not infringing on the human rights of the rich, the landlords and the monopolies?

The fact that TCs need to be protected is no different to any other democracy. Remove safeguards and you end up with jungle rule, and we know where that leads to.

EU laws are not what you imagined them. Anything agreed here will not be challenged in any way by the EU. If anything the EU is saying FFS agree and get on with it.

Who said there are no safeguards in Democracies.?? The constitution and "Bill of Rights" are all safeguards for all citizens. All your examples given above are a waste of time. Is the Pakistani poor treated differently than a Jamaican poor, or white poor and so on because of ethnicity.? Show me where a certain ethnic group has more rights than another as a equal citizens in what the TCs want in a Democracy other than having more rights based on ethnicity given to them as minority rights, which can be more rights given than to other citizens (majority), but of course the TCs do not want to be a minority with special rights, but want all those extra rights all the same just because they are a TC, and you think individual Cypriot citizens are not going to challenge all these wrong doings in appropriate courts in Cyprus and in the EU, no matter what the agreements are during settlement talks. Well, think again, because you can't have your cake and eat it too. You need to make a choice of being an equal citizen with equal protections and equal treatment, or you want more because you are a minority, and even then, you cannot violate others democratic and constitutional rights.. So what do you want to be YFred, a minority with more rights than the rest or an equal citizen as having same rights as the rest of the Cypriots.?

[denizaksulu]

Even before anything has been agreed like a true GCs your are immediately trying to worm your way out, we should therefore ask for safeguards against this sort of action which would act as a deterrant as this was what happened in the past.

That's why I always insist on a Fair & Just settlement and not try and have a forced settlement where you want advantages and privileges at the expense of your fellow citizens as the case was in 1960 and the AP in 2004. If you do, then don't blame others for exercise their democratic and constitutional rights to claim justice and equality, if you have any idea what those are, and based on your postings here on the forum, you have very little idea. In a true democracy, everything is challengeable, even all the "safeguards" you ask for, if they deem to be unconstitutional, therefore be careful what you ask for and be sure that it can benefit all Cypriots and not just yourself at the expense of others democratic and constitutional rights, because I doubt there will be any articles in the constitution as before where dozens of articles were in perpetuity as the case was in 1960 and could not be amended. Even those did not save the day for Cyprus, so don’t expect any “funny business” in today’s EU member Cyprus..!

Very eloquently put Kikapu. I wish I had that gift. I often wondered wat these safeguards would be, but for some it is a military presence - and that is what they call democracy.

Really there are no safeguards in democracies? Then how do we protect the poor from the rich, the tenant from the landlord and the population from monopolies? Are we not infringing on the human rights of the rich, the landlords and the monopolies?

The fact that TCs need to be protected is no different to any other democracy. Remove safeguards and you end up with jungle rule, and we know where that leads to.

EU laws are not what you imagined them. Anything agreed here will not be challenged in any way by the EU. If anything the EU is saying FFS agree and get on with it.

Ok, I hear what you say, or should I say, that I read what you write, but are you saying that the EU will not act as an overseer as to the proper conduct of the majority over the 'minority'? Can not this be enshrined into any agreement between the two parties so that in the unhappy event of any disagreement, a body within the EU will act as arbitrator. I can not see how this can not be achieved. To me, it will achieve a dual purpose. One is what we are talking about and the other is the shadow of Turkeys military might.( which seems a bone of contention here.) IMO

That would work in ordinary circumstances, when it comes to cyprus, TCs will only trust the safeguards given by Turkey. If that is the case the GCs will have to respect it otherwise there is no solution. Two states it will be sooner or later.

In that case, partition has already been achieved. If the Turkish Cypriots did not want any solution by the force of arms in 1963, 1967 1974, why must we assume that our GreekCyp compatriots will accept this. The way I see it is, we expect two wrongs to make a right. Wrong!!.IMO.

[YFred]

Even before anything has been agreed like a true GCs your are immediately trying to worm your way out, we should therefore ask for safeguards against this sort of action which would act as a deterrant as this was what happened in the past.

That's why I always insist on a Fair & Just settlement and not try and have a forced settlement where you want advantages and privileges at the expense of your fellow citizens as the case was in 1960 and the AP in 2004. If you do, then don't blame others for exercise their democratic and constitutional rights to claim justice and equality, if you have any idea what those are, and based on your postings here on the forum, you have very little idea. In a true democracy, everything is challengeable, even all the "safeguards" you ask for, if they deem to be unconstitutional, therefore be careful what you ask for and be sure that it can benefit all Cypriots and not just yourself at the expense of others democratic and constitutional rights, because I doubt there will be any articles in the constitution as before where dozens of articles were in perpetuity as the case was in 1960 and could not be amended. Even those did not save the day for Cyprus, so don’t expect any “funny business” in today’s EU member Cyprus..!

Very eloquently put Kikapu. I wish I had that gift. I often wondered wat these safeguards would be, but for some it is a military presence - and that is what they call democracy.

Really there are no safeguards in democracies? Then how do we protect the poor from the rich, the tenant from the landlord and the population from monopolies? Are we not infringing on the human rights of the rich, the landlords and the monopolies?

The fact that TCs need to be protected is no different to any other democracy. Remove safeguards and you end up with jungle rule, and we know where that leads to.

EU laws are not what you imagined them. Anything agreed here will not be challenged in any way by the EU. If anything the EU is saying FFS agree and get on with it.

Who said there are no safeguards in Democracies.?? The constitution and "Bill of Rights" are all safeguards for all citizens. All your examples given above are a waste of time. Is the Pakistani poor treated differently than a Jamaican poor, or white poor and so on because of ethnicity.? Show me where a certain ethnic group has more rights than another as a equal citizens in what the TCs want in a Democracy other than having more rights based on ethnicity given to them as minority rights, which can be more rights given than to other citizens (majority), but of course the TCs do not want to be a minority with special rights, but want all those extra rights all the same just because they are a TC, and you think individual Cypriot citizens are not going to challenge all these wrong doings in appropriate courts in Cyprus and in the EU, no matter what the agreements are during settlement talks. Well, think again, because you can't have your cake and eat it too. You need to make a choice of being an equal citizen with equal protections and equal treatment, or you want more because you are a minority, and even then, you cannot violate others democratic and constitutional rights.. So what do you want to be YFred, a minority with more rights than the rest or an equal citizen as having same rights as the rest of the Cypriots.?

No it is simpler than that. You do not need to protect one poor against another. You protect the poor from the rich.
The safeguards in EU do not do that, the laws in each country do. It is called social politics. It's called society, where the interest of society is protected against interest of the rich. The fact that the rich happen to be the GCs and the poor happens to be TCs is neither here nor there.
Protection is going to be part of the plan. It is not a wish list but a mesaurable deliverable. It will be in the plan and EU will not say a word against it.

[Kikapu]

Even before anything has been agreed like a true GCs your are immediately trying to worm your way out, we should therefore ask for safeguards against this sort of action which would act as a deterrant as this was what happened in the past.

That's why I always insist on a Fair & Just settlement and not try and have a forced settlement where you want advantages and privileges at the expense of your fellow citizens as the case was in 1960 and the AP in 2004. If you do, then don't blame others for exercise their democratic and constitutional rights to claim justice and equality, if you have any idea what those are, and based on your postings here on the forum, you have very little idea. In a true democracy, everything is challengeable, even all the "safeguards" you ask for, if they deem to be unconstitutional, therefore be careful what you ask for and be sure that it can benefit all Cypriots and not just yourself at the expense of others democratic and constitutional rights, because I doubt there will be any articles in the constitution as before where dozens of articles were in perpetuity as the case was in 1960 and could not be amended. Even those did not save the day for Cyprus, so don’t expect any “funny business” in today’s EU member Cyprus..!

Very eloquently put Kikapu. I wish I had that gift. I often wondered wat these safeguards would be, but for some it is a military presence - and that is what they call democracy.

Really there are no safeguards in democracies? Then how do we protect the poor from the rich, the tenant from the landlord and the population from monopolies? Are we not infringing on the human rights of the rich, the landlords and the monopolies?

The fact that TCs need to be protected is no different to any other democracy. Remove safeguards and you end up with jungle rule, and we know where that leads to.

EU laws are not what you imagined them. Anything agreed here will not be challenged in any way by the EU. If anything the EU is saying FFS agree and get on with it.

Ok, I hear what you say, or should I say, that I read what you write, but are you saying that the EU will not act as an overseer as to the proper conduct of the majority over the 'minority'? Can not this be enshrined into any agreement between the two parties so that in the unhappy event of any disagreement, a body within the EU will act as arbitrator. I can not see how this can not be achieved. To me, it will achieve a dual purpose. One is what we are talking about and the other is the shadow of Turkeys military might.( which seems a bone of contention here.) IMO

That would work in ordinary circumstances, when it comes to cyprus, TCs will only trust the safeguards given by Turkey. If that is the case the GCs will have to respect it otherwise there is no solution. Two states it will be sooner or later.

I think you must have been asleep in 2004, but that question has been answered with a NO vote on the AP. Besides, Turkey never had the role of being a guarantor for the TCs exclusively, but rather guarantorship of all Cypriots. Looks like they failed to keep their end of the bargain by about 4:1 ratio, or 80%-20% wouldn't you say, and now you want the that same 80% to say YES to Turkey who failed to protect them just because the 20% is happy to have gotten 50% more land than they ever had with the help of the Turkish Army.!

I tell you what, if the GCs agree with you and go along with your wishes to have Turkey as a guarantor, they are far better people than the TCs made them out to be, but somehow, if I were you, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting. As for your 2 state independent outcome of no solution, then I have some Ocean front property for sale in Arizona for you that's real cheap.!

[YFred]

Even before anything has been agreed like a true GCs your are immediately trying to worm your way out, we should therefore ask for safeguards against this sort of action which would act as a deterrant as this was what happened in the past.

That's why I always insist on a Fair & Just settlement and not try and have a forced settlement where you want advantages and privileges at the expense of your fellow citizens as the case was in 1960 and the AP in 2004. If you do, then don't blame others for exercise their democratic and constitutional rights to claim justice and equality, if you have any idea what those are, and based on your postings here on the forum, you have very little idea. In a true democracy, everything is challengeable, even all the "safeguards" you ask for, if they deem to be unconstitutional, therefore be careful what you ask for and be sure that it can benefit all Cypriots and not just yourself at the expense of others democratic and constitutional rights, because I doubt there will be any articles in the constitution as before where dozens of articles were in perpetuity as the case was in 1960 and could not be amended. Even those did not save the day for Cyprus, so don’t expect any “funny business” in today’s EU member Cyprus..!

Very eloquently put Kikapu. I wish I had that gift. I often wondered wat these safeguards would be, but for some it is a military presence - and that is what they call democracy.

Really there are no safeguards in democracies? Then how do we protect the poor from the rich, the tenant from the landlord and the population from monopolies? Are we not infringing on the human rights of the rich, the landlords and the monopolies?

The fact that TCs need to be protected is no different to any other democracy. Remove safeguards and you end up with jungle rule, and we know where that leads to.

EU laws are not what you imagined them. Anything agreed here will not be challenged in any way by the EU. If anything the EU is saying FFS agree and get on with it.

Ok, I hear what you say, or should I say, that I read what you write, but are you saying that the EU will not act as an overseer as to the proper conduct of the majority over the 'minority'? Can not this be enshrined into any agreement between the two parties so that in the unhappy event of any disagreement, a body within the EU will act as arbitrator. I can not see how this can not be achieved. To me, it will achieve a dual purpose. One is what we are talking about and the other is the shadow of Turkeys military might.( which seems a bone of contention here.) IMO

That would work in ordinary circumstances, when it comes to cyprus, TCs will only trust the safeguards given by Turkey. If that is the case the GCs will have to respect it otherwise there is no solution. Two states it will be sooner or later.

I think you must have been asleep in 2004, but that question has been answered with a NO vote on the AP. Besides, Turkey never had the role of being a guarantor for the TCs exclusively, but rather guarantorship of all Cypriots. Looks like they failed to keep their end of the bargain by about 4:1 ratio, or 80%-20% wouldn't you say, and now you want the that same 80% to say YES to Turkey who failed to protect them just because the 20% is happy to have gotten 50% more land than they ever had with the help of the Turkish Army.!

I tell you what, if the GCs agree with you and go along with your wishes to have Turkey as a guarantor, they are far better people than the TCs made them out to be, but somehow, if I were you, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting. As for your 2 state independent outcome of no solution, then I have some Ocean front property for sale in Arizona for you that's real cheap.!

Let them say no again. Interesting time the next 12 moths that’s for sure.
Arizona land, was it stolen from the indians by any chance?

[Kikapu]

Even before anything has been agreed like a true GCs your are immediately trying to worm your way out, we should therefore ask for safeguards against this sort of action which would act as a deterrant as this was what happened in the past.

That's why I always insist on a Fair & Just settlement and not try and have a forced settlement where you want advantages and privileges at the expense of your fellow citizens as the case was in 1960 and the AP in 2004. If you do, then don't blame others for exercise their democratic and constitutional rights to claim justice and equality, if you have any idea what those are, and based on your postings here on the forum, you have very little idea. In a true democracy, everything is challengeable, even all the "safeguards" you ask for, if they deem to be unconstitutional, therefore be careful what you ask for and be sure that it can benefit all Cypriots and not just yourself at the expense of others democratic and constitutional rights, because I doubt there will be any articles in the constitution as before where dozens of articles were in perpetuity as the case was in 1960 and could not be amended. Even those did not save the day for Cyprus, so don’t expect any “funny business” in today’s EU member Cyprus..!

Very eloquently put Kikapu. I wish I had that gift. I often wondered wat these safeguards would be, but for some it is a military presence - and that is what they call democracy.

Really there are no safeguards in democracies? Then how do we protect the poor from the rich, the tenant from the landlord and the population from monopolies? Are we not infringing on the human rights of the rich, the landlords and the monopolies?

The fact that TCs need to be protected is no different to any other democracy. Remove safeguards and you end up with jungle rule, and we know where that leads to.

EU laws are not what you imagined them. Anything agreed here will not be challenged in any way by the EU. If anything the EU is saying FFS agree and get on with it.

Who said there are no safeguards in Democracies.?? The constitution and "Bill of Rights" are all safeguards for all citizens. All your examples given above are a waste of time. Is the Pakistani poor treated differently than a Jamaican poor, or white poor and so on because of ethnicity.? Show me where a certain ethnic group has more rights than another as a equal citizens in what the TCs want in a Democracy other than having more rights based on ethnicity given to them as minority rights, which can be more rights given than to other citizens (majority), but of course the TCs do not want to be a minority with special rights, but want all those extra rights all the same just because they are a TC, and you think individual Cypriot citizens are not going to challenge all these wrong doings in appropriate courts in Cyprus and in the EU, no matter what the agreements are during settlement talks. Well, think again, because you can't have your cake and eat it too. You need to make a choice of being an equal citizen with equal protections and equal treatment, or you want more because you are a minority, and even then, you cannot violate others democratic and constitutional rights.. So what do you want to be YFred, a minority with more rights than the rest or an equal citizen as having same rights as the rest of the Cypriots.?

No it is simpler than that. You do not need to protect one poor against another. You protect the poor from the rich.
The safeguards in EU do not do that, the laws in each country do. It is called social politics. It's called society, where the interest of society is protected against interest of the rich. The fact that the rich happen to be the GCs and the poor happens to be TCs is neither here nor there.
Protection is going to be part of the plan. It is not a wish list but a mesaurable deliverable. It will be in the plan and EU will not say a word against it.

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE RIGHTS OF THE RICH AND THE POOR, ARE WE.? WE ARE TALKING ABOUT VIOLATION OF INDIVIALS DEMOCRATIC AND CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS HERE WHICH YOU WANT TO IMPOSE ON YOUR FELLOW CITIZENS SO THAT YOU CAN HAVE MORE RIGHTS THAN THEY AT THEIR EXPENCE. I HAVE ASKED YOU TO CHOOSE TO BE AN EQUAL CITIZEN AS OTHERS WITH SAME RIGHTS OR BE A MINORITY WITH MORE RIGHTS BUT YOU HAVE REFUSED TO ANSWER, BUT EVEN IF YOU DID CHOOSE THE LATTER, YOU WILL STILL NOT BE ABLE TO VIOLATE OTHERS DEMOCRATIC AND CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS. SO WHICH IS IT THAT YOU WANT, YFRED.?

Sorry but, I felt like "shouting" for a change, because you seem to have not heard me before.!