Cyprus-Forum.com

[Gregory]

My fathers family originally came from what is now called Lviv in Ukraine,although when him and his mother went to England in the late 1930's because they were afraid(and quite rightly as it turned out!)that Germany would invade Poland and being Jews they would be in danger,the city was in Poland.After Germany invaded,the Soviets were next to occupy the place and Stalin decided that the post-war boundary of Poland would be shifted westwards,making it part of the Ukraine under his control!The Polish population were kicked out and replaced by Soviets and nobody in the West has ever raised the question of compensating them,even though many Poles fought with the Allies against Germany in the war...and remember the Poles had done nothing to deserve what happened to them,any more than many Greek Cypriots in 1974.
It's all a question of geopolitical expediency,and as other people have rightly pointed out,justice is not equally distributed among all countries-try asking the Poles about it,or the Sudeten Germans etc etc...
Part of the Cyprus solution has to involve a compromise on properties and that means compensation in more than a few cases.After 35 years the E.U. will not ignore the rights of people who have been born in northern Cyprus since their parents came here after 1974-once again this involves compromise.A considerable number of Greek and Turkish Cypriots will not choose to return to their previous homes anyway and will opt for compensation so they can stay where they are now-once again a compromise is possible.
What I am trying to say is the case of Cyprus is not unique in world history and similar situations-or worse have happened in many other places...otherwise the Poles might as well start suing Russia,the American Natives the U.S. government,Greeks from Istanbul suing Ankara about past grievances etc etc while the situation on the ground consolidates and the greedy corrupt lawyers continue to deceive and exploit the gullible and the naive!
Morally, sentimentally we all have a case,but the world is grounded on harder principles and we have to live with reality!
Of course nobody is going to accept peanuts and there will be international contributions towards compensation,even though economic conditions in the past would probably have allowed more to be paid out than under current conditions internationally...but that's another disadvantage of the passge of time...

But if the rights of the property owner have been acknowledged by the other side whats the point of this post?

[Tim Drayton]

My fathers family originally came from what is now called Lviv in Ukraine,although when him and his mother went to England in the late 1930's because they were afraid(and quite rightly as it turned out!)that Germany would invade Poland and being Jews they would be in danger,the city was in Poland.After Germany invaded,the Soviets were next to occupy the place and Stalin decided that the post-war boundary of Poland would be shifted westwards,making it part of the Ukraine under his control!The Polish population were kicked out and replaced by Soviets and nobody in the West has ever raised the question of compensating them,even though many Poles fought with the Allies against Germany in the war...and remember the Poles had done nothing to deserve what happened to them,any more than many Greek Cypriots in 1974.
It's all a question of geopolitical expediency,and as other people have rightly pointed out,justice is not equally distributed among all countries-try asking the Poles about it,or the Sudeten Germans etc etc...
Part of the Cyprus solution has to involve a compromise on properties and that means compensation in more than a few cases.After 35 years the E.U. will not ignore the rights of people who have been born in northern Cyprus since their parents came here after 1974-once again this involves compromise.A considerable number of Greek and Turkish Cypriots will not choose to return to their previous homes anyway and will opt for compensation so they can stay where they are now-once again a compromise is possible.
What I am trying to say is the case of Cyprus is not unique in world history and similar situations-or worse have happened in many other places...otherwise the Poles might as well start suing Russia,the American Natives the U.S. government,Greeks from Istanbul suing Ankara about past grievances etc etc while the situation on the ground consolidates and the greedy corrupt lawyers continue to deceive and exploit the gullible and the naive!
Morally, sentimentally we all have a case,but the world is grounded on harder principles and we have to live with reality!
Of course nobody is going to accept peanuts and there will be international contributions towards compensation,even though economic conditions in the past would probably have allowed more to be paid out than under current conditions internationally...but that's another disadvantage of the passge of time...

What Stalin actually did was to move the whole of Poland westward. Yes, large numbers of ethnic Poles were expelled from the Ukraine and Lithuania, but at the same time the new western border of Poland encroached on a lot of German territory and huge numbers of ethnic Germans were expelled in the same manner, even from Silesia where Germans and Poles had cohabited for centuries. I often used to conjecture - during the year that I spent as a student at the University of Warsaw in the days of Communism - that Stalin's plan was to give Germany justifiable irridentist claims against Poland - I remember seeing 'Silesia is German' demonstartions in West Germany in the 1980's -so that the Poles would have to align themselves closely with the Soviet Union as the guarantor of their new borders.

[Kikapu]

You have finally found your highly intellectual level in how to communicate.!

Keep it up by not writing another word.!

How is it that they have taken up my suggestion on Office of the President and ignored yours? Can you explain that?
That must be eating you alive from within.

What are you blabbering about now, YFred.!

I've asked you a question. Now, be a good boy and answer it.!

[zan]

My fathers family originally came from what is now called Lviv in Ukraine,although when him and his mother went to England in the late 1930's because they were afraid(and quite rightly as it turned out!)that Germany would invade Poland and being Jews they would be in danger,the city was in Poland.After Germany invaded,the Soviets were next to occupy the place and Stalin decided that the post-war boundary of Poland would be shifted westwards,making it part of the Ukraine under his control!The Polish population were kicked out and replaced by Soviets and nobody in the West has ever raised the question of compensating them,even though many Poles fought with the Allies against Germany in the war...and remember the Poles had done nothing to deserve what happened to them,any more than many Greek Cypriots in 1974.
It's all a question of geopolitical expediency,and as other people have rightly pointed out,justice is not equally distributed among all countries-try asking the Poles about it,or the Sudeten Germans etc etc...
Part of the Cyprus solution has to involve a compromise on properties and that means compensation in more than a few cases.After 35 years the E.U. will not ignore the rights of people who have been born in northern Cyprus since their parents came here after 1974-once again this involves compromise.A considerable number of Greek and Turkish Cypriots will not choose to return to their previous homes anyway and will opt for compensation so they can stay where they are now-once again a compromise is possible.
What I am trying to say is the case of Cyprus is not unique in world history and similar situations-or worse have happened in many other places...otherwise the Poles might as well start suing Russia,the American Natives the U.S. government,Greeks from Istanbul suing Ankara about past grievances etc etc while the situation on the ground consolidates and the greedy corrupt lawyers continue to deceive and exploit the gullible and the naive!
Morally, sentimentally we all have a case,but the world is grounded on harder principles and we have to live with reality!
Of course nobody is going to accept peanuts and there will be international contributions towards compensation,even though economic conditions in the past would probably have allowed more to be paid out than under current conditions internationally...but that's another disadvantage of the passge of time...

But if the rights of the property owner have been acknowledged by the other side whats the point of this post?

Arbitration.........

[cymart]

Arbitration is the only way to settle many disputes in the world...

[YFred]

Arbitration is the only way to settle many disputes in the world...

Gregory like most GCs confuses rights to their property and actually getiing it back. Example is the TC land owners of Larnaca airport. They have the right and they will not return. Simple. Its called compensation and arbitration.

[YFred]

You have finally found your highly intellectual level in how to communicate.!

Keep it up by not writing another word.!

How is it that they have taken up my suggestion on Office of the President and ignored yours? Can you explain that?
That must be eating you alive from within.

What are you blabbering about now, YFred.!

Kickapoo, with respect, you spent a long time debating a political settlement and even boasted that the two muhtars read the thread. Which bit of your thread is relevant to the negotiations as we speak? I started the thread on the Office of the President and argued the point for the sharing of the Presidency role asking for a debate on what percentage split and low and behold it has been put forward.

Now, GCs have been suggesting that to allow a TC President was doing a favour for the TCs and now would like to see some favours in return with property settlement. That is totally wrong. The percentage of power in the constitution was 70/30 at 1960 and is now 4 years for GC and 2 years for TC. The percentage has not changed that much. What has changed is the giving up of the Veto power of the TC vice president. It seems to me that it is a big give on Talats side and he is expecting the return of the favour on number of settlers and land proportions.

Blabbering on is something you are an expert at.

[Kikapu]

You have finally found your highly intellectual level in how to communicate.!

Keep it up by not writing another word.!

How is it that they have taken up my suggestion on Office of the President and ignored yours? Can you explain that?
That must be eating you alive from within.

What are you blabbering about now, YFred.!

Kickapoo, with respect, you spent a long time debating a political settlement and even boasted that the two muhtars read the thread. Which bit of your thread is relevant to the negotiations as we speak? I started the thread on the Office of the President and argued the point for the sharing of the Presidency role asking for a debate on what percentage split and low and behold it has been put forward.

Now, GCs have been suggesting that to allow a TC President was doing a favour for the TCs and now would like to see some favours in return with property settlement. That is totally wrong. The percentage of power in the constitution was 70/30 at 1960 and is now 4 years for GC and 2 years for TC. The percentage has not changed that much. What has changed is the giving up of the Veto power of the TC vice president. It seems to me that it is a big give on Talats side and he is expecting the return of the favour on number of settlers and land proportions.

Blabbering on is something you are an expert at.

In my plan I had already accepted the fact that there would be Rotating Presidency therefore there was no need to go any further with the percentages of time served by each president. To me that is very irrelevant as to how long each President serves as long as he/she is a Cypriot and that all Cypriots comes first for them and they are not traitors to any foreign powers. What's important was the structure of power shared 50-50 by each Federal States. The whole purpose was to have a plan that covered the whole power sharing structure as political equality by the 2 Federal States, Federal Government, Lower House and the Upper House senators in a fully Democratic way, all a while providing the TCs the safeguards of "veto power" democratically. In order for this to happen, land size comes into play because of "right of return" of the refugees and "freedom of movement" by all Cypriots based on EU Principles. We had discussed Rotating Presidency and percentages here on the forum long time before you have ever showed up here and if you want some proof, I can do that for you.

In any case, we are all putting ideas forward. Until the dust settles and agreed referendums passes by both sides, there is hardly any reason to claim victory on whose ideas are being talked about in the negotiations. Also do not forget, as is the case is in all democracies, anything can be challenged in the constitution or Supreme courts over any definition that may be agreed on now. For example, if the Rotating Presidency is at 4:2 but the population percentages are 4:1, who is to say down the road the GC President is not given 6 years to serve while the TC President still gets 2 years. That would conform into the political equality of the two communities as being fare, does it not.?? That's just one example and there are others also.!

[Viewpoint]

Even before anything has been agreed like a true GCs your are immediately trying to worm your way out, we should therefore ask for safeguards against this sort of action which would act as a deterrant as this was what happened in the past.

[Kikapu]

Even before anything has been agreed like a true GCs your are immediately trying to worm your way out, we should therefore ask for safeguards against this sort of action which would act as a deterrant as this was what happened in the past.

That's why I always insist on a Fair & Just settlement and not try and have a forced settlement where you want advantages and privileges at the expense of your fellow citizens as the case was in 1960 and the AP in 2004. If you do, then don't blame others for exercise their democratic and constitutional rights to claim justice and equality, if you have any idea what those are, and based on your postings here on the forum, you have very little idea. In a true democracy, everything is challengeable, even all the "safeguards" you ask for, if they deem to be unconstitutional, therefore be careful what you ask for and be sure that it can benefit all Cypriots and not just yourself at the expense of others democratic and constitutional rights, because I doubt there will be any articles in the constitution as before where dozens of articles were in perpetuity as the case was in 1960 and could not be amended. Even those did not save the day for Cyprus, so don’t expect any “funny business” in today’s EU member Cyprus..!