Cyprus-Forum.com

[YFred]

Was it not you who claims that TCs were no major land owners? Some TCs have land in multiple villages and plenty of them too. Get your facts right dear boy.

The majority of Turkish Cypriots lived is SQUALOR up to July 1974, and the Department of Land & Surveys correctly credits them with just 12.3%!

Land Ownership by Ethnic Group:

60.9% - Greek/Armenian/Maronite Cypriots
12.3% - Turkish Cypriots
0.5% - Others
26.3% - State/Church Land

Source: Department of Lands and Surveys (refer to Annex 14 in Volume II of the "Memorandum by the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Cyprus" submitted to the Foreign Affairs Committee of the House of Commons, 27 February 1987.

http://www.greece.org/cyprus/Maps.htm

I don’t want to hear any more of your dad’s stories because we’re simply NOT interested!

Well that told me. If the land registry says it it is, then it must be.

You have some heart GR. How many times did Kifeas tell you about not mixing the Church land and Government land? If that is the level of accuracy your land registry operates at, it is as good as the Afghan election commission.

[Get Real!]

Was it not you who claims that TCs were no major land owners? Some TCs have land in multiple villages and plenty of them too. Get your facts right dear boy.

The majority of Turkish Cypriots lived is SQUALOR up to July 1974, and the Department of Land & Surveys correctly credits them with just 12.3%!

Land Ownership by Ethnic Group:

60.9% - Greek/Armenian/Maronite Cypriots
12.3% - Turkish Cypriots
0.5% - Others
26.3% - State/Church Land

Source: Department of Lands and Surveys (refer to Annex 14 in Volume II of the "Memorandum by the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Cyprus" submitted to the Foreign Affairs Committee of the House of Commons, 27 February 1987.

http://www.greece.org/cyprus/Maps.htm

I don’t want to hear any more of your dad’s stories because we’re simply NOT interested!

Well that told me. If the land registry says it it is, then it must be.

Who did you think we’re going to believe… those who collaborated with the invading Turks to plunder or the recognized body? Think again!

[YFred]

Was it not you who claims that TCs were no major land owners? Some TCs have land in multiple villages and plenty of them too. Get your facts right dear boy.

The majority of Turkish Cypriots lived is SQUALOR up to July 1974, and the Department of Land & Surveys correctly credits them with just 12.3%!

Land Ownership by Ethnic Group:

60.9% - Greek/Armenian/Maronite Cypriots
12.3% - Turkish Cypriots
0.5% - Others
26.3% - State/Church Land

Source: Department of Lands and Surveys (refer to Annex 14 in Volume II of the "Memorandum by the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Cyprus" submitted to the Foreign Affairs Committee of the House of Commons, 27 February 1987.

http://www.greece.org/cyprus/Maps.htm

I don’t want to hear any more of your dad’s stories because we’re simply NOT interested!

Well that told me. If the land registry says it it is, then it must be.

Who did you think we’re going to believe… those who collaborated with the invading Turks to plunder or the recognized body? Think again!

GR that’s below the belt accusing us of collaborating. Are you shaving our heads like they did in France during WW2?
Mixing with Sarkozybullo is turning you to a nun (giving you bad habits).

[Get Real!]

Was it not you who claims that TCs were no major land owners? Some TCs have land in multiple villages and plenty of them too. Get your facts right dear boy.

The majority of Turkish Cypriots lived is SQUALOR up to July 1974, and the Department of Land & Surveys correctly credits them with just 12.3%!

Land Ownership by Ethnic Group:

60.9% - Greek/Armenian/Maronite Cypriots
12.3% - Turkish Cypriots
0.5% - Others
26.3% - State/Church Land

Source: Department of Lands and Surveys (refer to Annex 14 in Volume II of the "Memorandum by the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Cyprus" submitted to the Foreign Affairs Committee of the House of Commons, 27 February 1987.

http://www.greece.org/cyprus/Maps.htm

I don’t want to hear any more of your dad’s stories because we’re simply NOT interested!

Well that told me. If the land registry says it it is, then it must be.

Who did you think we’re going to believe… those who collaborated with the invading Turks to plunder or the recognized body? Think again!

GR that’s below the belt accusing us of collaborating. Are you shaving our heads like they did in France during WW2?
Mixing with Sarkozybullo is turning you to a nun (giving you bad habits).

Did Turkish Cypriots NOT participate in the ethnic cleansing of Greek Cypriots during the Turkish invasion?

[Tim Drayton]

humanist wrote:

Perhaps Christofias can ask the people to register their interests if they don't want to return, but are willing to accept compensation, this will allow a bit of willing negotiation form individuals and hence bother leaders have land mass to play with.

It is impossible for anyone to make such a decision unless they know how much they would get for their property.

My belief is that it is IMPOSSIBLE for GC property owners to be compensated at MARKET VALUE for their properties - and this will be the main obstacle for solving the Cyprus problem.

GCs owned some 85% of land in the north, much of it by the sea. The Market Value of this is many tens of billions of Euros, whereas the international aid pack, even back in 2004 (i.e. no crisis), was only a few hundred million.

It is for this reason that the AP, instead of current Market Value, talked about 1974 prices (i.e. peanuts) plus some inflation rate. And, adding salt to injury, also provided for the compensation to be paid by GCs (i.e. the federal state which would be 100% funded by GCs)!!

Unltimately, when you cut through all the bullshit, the Cy problem boils down to a case of good old robbery and land grab of a significant chunk of a country i.e. the 18% population, which owned some 15% of land wants to have 30% of land.. so even after any exchange, SOMEONE has to PAY for the 15% of Cyprus - ANYONE who tries to do this will go bankrupt!

I think you are ignoring part of this equation, though, which is the market value of the Turkish Cypriot owned property in the south. If you look at Limassol alone, and consider the location of the projected marina, the current market value of the old Turkish Cypriot quarter of that city must be very high indeed.

I am not.. I mentioned that even AFTER exchange, someone will have to pay for around 15% of the land of Cyprus (i.e. TCs own 15% but want to own around 30% post-solution, without paying anything).

I agree that the marina area will be valuable, but that is tiny compared to the coastline that TCs want to aqcuire (for free) in the projected TC component state.

OK, I take your point. However, if you look at things through the impassionate eyes of a bean counter, if somebody pays the market price for an asset and then has that asset on their balance sheet, I see no basis for them going bankrupt.

The entity whose balance sheet you are referring to will not have acquired any asset - it will simply have provided a gift (accounted for through the P&L, causing a huge loss) to the commission that would subsequently compensate the property owners who will lose their rights.

Under the Annan Plan, that entity would have been the United RoC and projections showed that its deficit would have jumped from near zero to double digits (which would have also disqualified us from joining the Euro).

And that was on the basis that refugees would be compensated NOT immediately (because that would have meant TOTAL collapse of the Cyprus economy) but through bonds maturing in some 20 YEARS!

i.e. for, say, your seafront property in Kyrenia, of which Market Value (based on RoC) prices, is say Euro 2m per donnum, you would get
- 1974 prices plus some inflation (maybe Euro 50k per donnum),
- this would be paid to you in 20 years; and
- you would effectively be paying this money to yourself, because compensation would come from the United RoC, 100% funded by GCs

And then foreigners wonder why GCs voted NO!

Just for the sake of argument, let us say that Turkey underwrites the whole deal. An independent commission fixes the fair market value of this property, everybody gets paid what it is worth, Turkey forks out the balance after the value of Turkish Cypriot owned property is set off against Greek Cypriot owned property, and gets to keep the property it has paid for. Is that a done deal (hypothetically speaking)?

There is no way an owner will "trust" this independent commission to come up with a market value, because (in any hypothetical scenario) Turkish economy would COLLAPSE if there was a need to pay a lump sum amount of several tens of billions of Euros (such a payment would risk bringing down the US economy, never mind the Turkish one).

Accordingly, the ONLY safeguard an owner could accept is the OPTION i.e. this independent commission offers him the choice of accepting a specific amount, OR a specific property in the GC state, OR keeping his property.

IF the other options ARE indeed MARKET VALUE, then a reasonable GC would probably prefer to accept them instead of keeping his property in the TC state (as his current life is in the south).

However, the above CANNOT happen, because it would simply COST TOO MUCH and no one is prepared or able to pay the bill - and hence a solution to the Cyprus problem cannot be found.

The only way forward is for TCs to reduce their demands to % of land closer to their ownership (20 to 23% max), hence being able to offer the above choice to GCs.

Fair enough. My back of the envelope calculation produces a figure of at least 50 billion euro - ten times Turkey's current outstanding debt with the IMF. Not an easy sum to raise all at once.

[YFred]

Was it not you who claims that TCs were no major land owners? Some TCs have land in multiple villages and plenty of them too. Get your facts right dear boy.

The majority of Turkish Cypriots lived is SQUALOR up to July 1974, and the Department of Land & Surveys correctly credits them with just 12.3%!

Land Ownership by Ethnic Group:

60.9% - Greek/Armenian/Maronite Cypriots
12.3% - Turkish Cypriots
0.5% - Others
26.3% - State/Church Land

Source: Department of Lands and Surveys (refer to Annex 14 in Volume II of the "Memorandum by the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Cyprus" submitted to the Foreign Affairs Committee of the House of Commons, 27 February 1987.

http://www.greece.org/cyprus/Maps.htm

I don’t want to hear any more of your dad’s stories because we’re simply NOT interested!

Well that told me. If the land registry says it it is, then it must be.

Who did you think we’re going to believe… those who collaborated with the invading Turks to plunder or the recognized body? Think again!

GR that’s below the belt accusing us of collaborating. Are you shaving our heads like they did in France during WW2?
Mixing with Sarkozybullo is turning you to a nun (giving you bad habits).

Did Turkish Cypriots NOT participate in the ethnic cleansing of Greek Cypriots during the Turkish invasion?

Not where my clan resides old chap.

In any case you will find that where ever it occurred it was probably a reaction to the ethnic cleansing by the GCs in the 60s old chap.

Just thing what could have happened in Cyprus, if Makarios and the rest of the cronies did not create the Akritas plan in 1960, 3 months after the declaration of independence.

You certainly do not come out smelling of roses, do you old chap.

[Tony-4497]

Fair enough. My back of the envelope calculation produces a figure of at least 50 billion euro - ten times Turkey's current outstanding debt with the IMF. Not an easy sum to raise all at once.

Indeed.. in fact I've seen estimates as high as 3 times that.. no surprise, considering how high land prices are in the RoC.. especially for seafront properties (TCs want more than half of the coastline!)

[Oracle]

... Would you be happy if the RoC (via its president) told you it has agreed with Mr Talat that your property will be taken away and handed over to some Anatolian settler who has built a hut on it?

But that's just it. It does not belong to Talat or Christophias. They are passing through!

As I said ... all of Cyprus belongs to the RoC ... our custodian for future generations and the representative of the native Cypriots who have gone before.

[Tim Drayton]

Was it not you who claims that TCs were no major land owners? Some TCs have land in multiple villages and plenty of them too. Get your facts right dear boy.

The majority of Turkish Cypriots lived is SQUALOR up to July 1974, and the Department of Land & Surveys correctly credits them with just 12.3%!

Land Ownership by Ethnic Group:

60.9% - Greek/Armenian/Maronite Cypriots
12.3% - Turkish Cypriots
0.5% - Others
26.3% - State/Church Land

Source: Department of Lands and Surveys (refer to Annex 14 in Volume II of the "Memorandum by the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Cyprus" submitted to the Foreign Affairs Committee of the House of Commons, 27 February 1987.

http://www.greece.org/cyprus/Maps.htm

I don’t want to hear any more of your dad’s stories because we’re simply NOT interested!

Well that told me. If the land registry says it it is, then it must be.

Who did you think we’re going to believe… those who collaborated with the invading Turks to plunder or the recognized body? Think again!

GR that’s below the belt accusing us of collaborating. Are you shaving our heads like they did in France during WW2?
Mixing with Sarkozybullo is turning you to a nun (giving you bad habits).

Did Turkish Cypriots NOT participate in the ethnic cleansing of Greek Cypriots during the Turkish invasion?

Not where my clan resides old chap.

In any case you will find that where ever it occurred it was probably a reaction to the ethnic cleansing by the GCs in the 60s old chap.

Just thing what could have happened in Cyprus, if Makarios and the rest of the cronies did not create the Akritas plan in 1960, 3 months after the declaration of independence.

You certainly do not come out smelling of roses, do you old chap.

A few days ago CyBC's bicommunal Biz/Emeis programme interviewed an elderly Greek Cypriot who used to live in Louroujina and was encouraged/forced to leave the village in 1958 among with the other small number of Greek Cypriots who lived there. It was not entirely a happy story, even if this woman said that previously they had enjoyed very good relations with their Turkish Cypriot co-villagers.

[YFred]

Was it not you who claims that TCs were no major land owners? Some TCs have land in multiple villages and plenty of them too. Get your facts right dear boy.

The majority of Turkish Cypriots lived is SQUALOR up to July 1974, and the Department of Land & Surveys correctly credits them with just 12.3%!

Land Ownership by Ethnic Group:

60.9% - Greek/Armenian/Maronite Cypriots
12.3% - Turkish Cypriots
0.5% - Others
26.3% - State/Church Land

Source: Department of Lands and Surveys (refer to Annex 14 in Volume II of the "Memorandum by the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Cyprus" submitted to the Foreign Affairs Committee of the House of Commons, 27 February 1987.

http://www.greece.org/cyprus/Maps.htm

I don’t want to hear any more of your dad’s stories because we’re simply NOT interested!

Well that told me. If the land registry says it it is, then it must be.

Who did you think we’re going to believe… those who collaborated with the invading Turks to plunder or the recognized body? Think again!

GR that’s below the belt accusing us of collaborating. Are you shaving our heads like they did in France during WW2?
Mixing with Sarkozybullo is turning you to a nun (giving you bad habits).

Did Turkish Cypriots NOT participate in the ethnic cleansing of Greek Cypriots during the Turkish invasion?

Not where my clan resides old chap.

In any case you will find that where ever it occurred it was probably a reaction to the ethnic cleansing by the GCs in the 60s old chap.

Just thing what could have happened in Cyprus, if Makarios and the rest of the cronies did not create the Akritas plan in 1960, 3 months after the declaration of independence.

You certainly do not come out smelling of roses, do you old chap.

A few days ago CyBC's bicommunal Biz/Emeis programme interviewed an elderly Greek Cypriot who used to live in Louroujina and was encouraged/forced to leave the village in 1958 among with the other small number of Greek Cypriots who lived there. It was not entirely a happy story, even if this woman said that previously they had enjoyed very good relations with their Turkish Cypriot co-villagers.

I know, there were 10 families that police advised to leave for a few days and of course that lasted for 60 years. My Brother found one of them in Larnaca after the crossings opened. His last name was Lurucadi. He took that name after they moved out of the village.