Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

You have a short historical memory Piratis. Let me remind you that these so called arguments were used by exactly the same people that brought Turkey to Cyprus in 1974. When Makarios realised that going for the desirable was no longer an option, the Piratis's of the time spoke exactly with the same language, because compromise for them was not an option.

What you are asking is a regime that goes beyond even the London-Zurich agreement. You want to turn the Turkish Cypriots into an insignificant majority but your barkings really only incite laughter because we do not have the means to do just that, thank God. For GC nationalist are among the worst criminals of the kind.

I always support democracy. It is people like you who cooperate with foreign Imperialists to impose your will on Cyprus, and this is what extremists like you have done in 1974.

TCs are in fact a minority, so I don't want to "turn" them into anything more or anything less than what they really are. It is you along with your British and Turkish friends who want to turn this small minority into an organ through which these Imperialists can control Cyprus by overwriting anything that the Cypriot people desire.

It is not enough that you criminals occupy 1/3rd of our homeland, you want to enslave the rest of it as well by installing your puppets as our governors! You want to turn the whole Cyprus into another banana republic controlled by Turkey!

[-mikkie2-]

"All in all, the TCs are given a major boost by serving a longer Presidential term than deserving based on their population size and ratio of the 1960. Lets see what they will do in return to reciprocate by giving up on something from their side as a good-will gesture to reach a settlement."

I think the offer made by Christofias has put the cat amongst the pidgeons because he has proposed something which the TC's can't really turn down and it is being viewed as a big compromise by the major players on the part of the GC's. I think Talat knows this which is why he hasn't thrown it out. Christofias knows that the land and property issues are make or break for the GC's so he is expecting a more favourable response from the TC's regarding land issue.

[bill cobbett]

OK, let us speculate on the "piece of the action" post a settlement.

Biggest project is the rebuilding of Famagusta. This is project that might even go beyond the confines of the island and attract international town planning firms. Ironaically it will be financed by the returning residents with loans from GC banks, ie increasing the profits of the banks of the south and reinforcing the economy.

Second is the already established urban centers of the south- Nicosia, Limassol, Larnaca, Paphos and the newly rebuilt Famagusta. These, whether we like it or not, are automatically elevated to business centers. That is the fate of urban areas everywhere. Anyone who wants to have a small to medium sized business will look to these towns, not the rural area of Karpasia.

Sure there will be tourist resorts built in the north. But these are focused, narrow scope businesses. They are also seasonal. If anyone wants to sell to the locals he will go where they are thick on the ground, ie the towns.

This is not a phenomenon which will come about in the future. Already there is the phenomenon of villages losing their population even when they are very near to urban centers. Villages that are 20 kilometers from Limassol are losing their population to the city. Greece's countryside has lost almost the total of its population, over 80 per cent of the people now live in four urban areas. Istanbul hosts one fith of Turkey's population. London has one sixth of the UK.

When I can be in work within an hour almost anywhere on the island I don't think that it will be an issue Nikitas. That and the fact that the North will have bigger investment because of years of Embargoes makes the North more attractive to me.

Highways.

Not terribly environmentally nice, but suspect within a dozen years of a settlement there will be a system of Highways in the north including a Coastal Highway and if engineeringly possible, one from Nic to Kyrenia.

Such new Highways will enable the car crazy CYs to commute in the north as they do in the south.

[-mikkie2-]

I also tend to agree with Nikitas regarding post solution scenarios. I think once the barriers come down there will be a new dynamic which will be hard to control. People will tend to move to the points of economic activity and that will be towards the major cities.

In the south you have two major ports in Limassol and Larnaca, with the latter currently due to have a major upgrade to take larger vessels. Can Cyprus have 3 major ports? The port at Famagusta will probably require massive investment to bring it up to international standards and to have 3 competing ports in Cyprus may not be sustainable. Its the same with the airports. Paphos and Larnaca have been upgraded to international standards and they have the advantage of being on the coast which means that they can be expanded in the future without disrupting population centres. The airport in Tymbou will not have a longterm future purely due to its location and proximity to population centres.

Agriculture will also change and it will become an even smaller part of the economy. The main drivers to the economy will be financial services, shipping, property development and to a lesser extent, tourism. The last two will be the main drivers of the economy in the north for the first few years but these will be highly dependant on the financial services side of the economy providing the necessary investment.

[Get Real!]

From the coming new year onwards, the EU will be looking at Turkey (whether some like it or not) from a different lens altogether, creating a whole new set of dynamics for the Cyprus problem, so save your energy for those interesting times ahead…

Which seem to have began sooner than I expected...

EU Commission withdraws funding project for the Turkish Republic of the Northern Cyprus

"The European Commission withdrew funding project for the Turkish Republic of the Northern Cyprus (TRNC), CnnTurk says.

The EU Commission explained its action as follows:

“Political tension is ruling TRNC, the Cypriot issue has reached a dead end. Thus, 42 million euro worth funding aimed for the country’s economic development has been withdrawn,” the source says.

The former Head of European Commission's Negotiation Team to Cyprus Leopold Maurer has left for Cyprus to attend the ongoing talks as an EU Commission Special Envoy."

http://www.panorama.am/en/politics/2009/10/22/kipros/

[Tony-4497]

"All in all, the TCs are given a major boost by serving a longer Presidential term than deserving based on their population size and ratio of the 1960. Lets see what they will do in return to reciprocate by giving up on something from their side as a good-will gesture to reach a settlement."

I think the offer made by Christofias has put the cat amongst the pidgeons because he has proposed something which the TC's can't really turn down and it is being viewed as a big compromise by the major players on the part of the GC's. I think Talat knows this which is why he hasn't thrown it out. Christofias knows that the land and property issues are make or break for the GC's so he is expecting a more favourable response from the TC's regarding land issue.

So our genious of a President has really cornered Turks now (as he promised to do pre-election), through his cunning plan of ...er.. giving them all they want.. fantastic..

Even children know he will get bugger all in return (in property, land or anything else) and that the next President, in this endless series of GCs bending over more and more, will be starting his own concessions after first accepting all the previous ones..

[Kikapu]

"All in all, the TCs are given a major boost by serving a longer Presidential term than deserving based on their population size and ratio of the 1960. Lets see what they will do in return to reciprocate by giving up on something from their side as a good-will gesture to reach a settlement."

I think the offer made by Christofias has put the cat amongst the pidgeons because he has proposed something which the TC's can't really turn down and it is being viewed as a big compromise by the major players on the part of the GC's. I think Talat knows this which is why he hasn't thrown it out. Christofias knows that the land and property issues are make or break for the GC's so he is expecting a more favourable response from the TC's regarding land issue.

So our genious of a President has really cornered Turks now (as he promised to do pre-election), through his cunning plan of ...er.. giving them all they want.. fantastic..

Even children know he will get bugger all in return (in property, land or anything else) and that the next President, in this endless series of GCs bending over more and more, will be starting his own concessions after first accepting all the previous ones..

I don't know what your concerns are exactly. Does it matter which ethnic Cypriot is the President and which is the vice President and how long they serve in office, as long as both are on the same ticket and are voted by all Cypriots as ONE ticket and that they are more or less on the same political ideology. People will vote on what political platform they will stand on. For example, Obama represents 10% of the ethnic American population where as Biden represent almost 80% of the ethnic Americans, and yet, Obama potentially can stay as a President for 2 terms totalling 8 years and 0 for Biden. What does it matter, since both Biden and Obama are on the same political ideology and are both Americans for all Americans. Same can be in Cyprus if all the Presidential and all the MP candidates are also Cypriots for all Cypriots. Any President who tries to become a traitor by selling their country to foreign powers should be executed in a public place for all to see. Unfortunately, such things will not take place in a EU country, but they can still rot in jail.!

[Piratis]

"All in all, the TCs are given a major boost by serving a longer Presidential term than deserving based on their population size and ratio of the 1960. Lets see what they will do in return to reciprocate by giving up on something from their side as a good-will gesture to reach a settlement."

I think the offer made by Christofias has put the cat amongst the pidgeons because he has proposed something which the TC's can't really turn down and it is being viewed as a big compromise by the major players on the part of the GC's. I think Talat knows this which is why he hasn't thrown it out. Christofias knows that the land and property issues are make or break for the GC's so he is expecting a more favourable response from the TC's regarding land issue.

So our genious of a President has really cornered Turks now (as he promised to do pre-election), through his cunning plan of ...er.. giving them all they want.. fantastic..

Even children know he will get bugger all in return (in property, land or anything else) and that the next President, in this endless series of GCs bending over more and more, will be starting his own concessions after first accepting all the previous ones..

I don't know what your concerns are exactly. Does it matter which ethnic Cypriot is the President and which is the vice President and how long they serve in office, as long as both are on the same ticket and are voted by all Cypriots as ONE ticket and that they are more or less on the same political ideology. People will vote on what political platform they will stand on. For example, Obama represents 10% of the ethnic American population where as Biden represent almost 80% of the ethnic Americans, and yet, Obama potentially can stay as a President for 2 terms totalling 8 years and 0 for Biden. What does it matter, since both Biden and Obama are on the same political ideology and are both Americans for all Americans. Same can be in Cyprus if all the Presidential and all the MP candidates are also Cypriots for all Cypriots. Any President who tries to become a traitor by selling their country to foreign powers should be executed in a public place for all to see. Unfortunately, such things will not take place in a EU country, but they can still rot in jail.!

Kikapu, if it was a common ticket then it would be much fairer and democratic although still not as democratic as in the USA. Obama was elected because the American people preferred him over the other candidates, not because they had to elect an African American for this term because this was required by the constidution (the USA constidution does not make any kind of requirements that are based on race).

But I agree with you that if it was a common ticket and if the Presidency term distribution was proportional to population, then this would be a very fair and democratic system and it would also meet the term "political equality of communities" with TCs guaranteed a more than effective participation.

This is not the case with this proposal however. This proposal would mean that for 1/3rd of the time we will have in Cyprus a president which is not democratically elected, and who will own his position to the undemocratic, unfair system imposed on Cyprus by Turkey. This will make such a president indebted to Turkey for the exact same reasons that Talat is indebted to Turkey today (Talat was supposed to be the "progressive" one. But being elected to that position indebted him to Turkey, and the results are obvious).

[Kikapu]

"All in all, the TCs are given a major boost by serving a longer Presidential term than deserving based on their population size and ratio of the 1960. Lets see what they will do in return to reciprocate by giving up on something from their side as a good-will gesture to reach a settlement."

I think the offer made by Christofias has put the cat amongst the pidgeons because he has proposed something which the TC's can't really turn down and it is being viewed as a big compromise by the major players on the part of the GC's. I think Talat knows this which is why he hasn't thrown it out. Christofias knows that the land and property issues are make or break for the GC's so he is expecting a more favourable response from the TC's regarding land issue.

So our genious of a President has really cornered Turks now (as he promised to do pre-election), through his cunning plan of ...er.. giving them all they want.. fantastic..

Even children know he will get bugger all in return (in property, land or anything else) and that the next President, in this endless series of GCs bending over more and more, will be starting his own concessions after first accepting all the previous ones..

I don't know what your concerns are exactly. Does it matter which ethnic Cypriot is the President and which is the vice President and how long they serve in office, as long as both are on the same ticket and are voted by all Cypriots as ONE ticket and that they are more or less on the same political ideology. People will vote on what political platform they will stand on. For example, Obama represents 10% of the ethnic American population where as Biden represent almost 80% of the ethnic Americans, and yet, Obama potentially can stay as a President for 2 terms totalling 8 years and 0 for Biden. What does it matter, since both Biden and Obama are on the same political ideology and are both Americans for all Americans. Same can be in Cyprus if all the Presidential and all the MP candidates are also Cypriots for all Cypriots. Any President who tries to become a traitor by selling their country to foreign powers should be executed in a public place for all to see. Unfortunately, such things will not take place in a EU country, but they can still rot in jail.!

Kikapu, if it was a common ticket then it would be much fairer and democratic although still not as democratic as in the USA. Obama was elected because the American people preferred him over the other candidates, not because they had to elect an African American for this term because this was required by the constidution (the USA constidution does not make any kind of requirements that are based on race).

But I agree with you that if it was a common ticket and if the Presidency term distribution was proportional to population, then this would be a very fair and democratic system and it would also meet the term "political equality of communities" with TCs guaranteed a more than effective participation.

This is not the case with this proposal however. This proposal would mean that for 1/3rd of the time we will have in Cyprus a president which is not democratically elected, and who will own his position to the undemocratic, unfair system imposed on Cyprus by Turkey. This will make such a president indebted to Turkey for the exact same reasons that Talat is indebted to Turkey today (Talat was supposed to be the "progressive" one. But being elected to that position indebted him to Turkey, and the results are obvious).

Piratis,

I understand where you are coming from and my whole point is, that both the candidate running for President/Vice President in Cyprus MUST run together as ONE ticket and are voted in office as ONE ticket. No doubt there will be many tickets of TCs/GCs running together and whom ever gets 50+% of the votes on first or second round as a joint ticket should be elected as President/Vice President. I'm personally not a great fan of Rotating Presidency, but willing to accept it in Cyprus as long as the candidates are not elected individually by their own ethnic groups to become part of the President/Vice President team. Joint team YES, but individual selection by each ethnic group, NO. It will be the latter system that will cause the problems you and me are concerned about where the candidates allegiance may rest with foreign powers. However, a joint ticket voted by all Cypriots will ensure extremist and potential traitors will not be voted into office, and I believe that's what the position of Christofias is, that candidates run as a team on ONE ticket. I know Talat wants the other system which runs the risk of creating potential traitors who may want to give their allegiance to foreign powers, should be reason enough to refuse what he is asking for, since he is a puppet to Turkey as we speak along with the rest of so called “leaders” of the TCs in the north, therefore, such demands should be viewed with suspicion as well as the persons making them . Personally for me, that would be a deal breaker for a settlement in going forward with such a demand by Talat and should be rejected at all cost. Such a system can be corrupted easily where constitutional crises can arise very quickly, and by demanding that Turkey remain a guarantor power to oversee such disputes, can only produce the results of 1963 and 1974 respectively as long as Fascist NeoPartitionist keep their dreams alive in permanent partitioning of Cyprus, especially in becoming also a EU member at the same time which then Turkey will be able to use the TCs to disrupt the EU as a whole by controlling a renegade independent TC state in the north.

How democratic will a Rotating Presidency will it be if both candidates, TC/GC run as ONE ticket winning by 50+% votes.? I think it can be very democratic if the concept of Rotating Presidency is accepted by the majority of Cypriots in a referendum put in front of us to vote on to reach a settlement. It is true that it will not be the same kind of democracy as in the states, but then again, as the case is with Obama and Biden, Obama was elected by the American People as the President. He was the main candidate on the joint ticket with Biden. You can say that the American People voted for Obama over McCain with Biden as his "side kick" and yet, a day after Obama was sworn in as President, should he have died in office, Biden would have become the President for the next 4 years who was not directly elected by the American People as being the main candidate. Should both Obama and Biden died on the same day, then Nancy Pelosi, the Speaker of the House would have become President and she was not even running for the Presidency and nobody had voted for her as a President. So it is all matter of what is agreed on and what is in the constitution that will make transition of power is passed on to the next person whether they are directly elected by the people or not. Naturally, we want to get as close to democratic means of electing people as possible rather than deliberately finding ways to get around democracy, but a TC/GC running as ONE ticket voted by all Cypriots and the team who has gotten 50+% votes can be very democratic to lead the country and it’s people, if what the majority of Cypriots wants it that way. Besides, as the case is with all constitutions in democratic countries, in time, if and when Cypriots are ready to modify any part of the constitutions by voting to amend it, it can be changed to serve the people better as they wish. If I’m not mistaken, the Americans have done just that at least 26 times since 1776. One must change with the times, since “Time Does Not Stand still”.!

[bill cobbett]

My dear Kikapou, (and interested others),

Regretfully I have to agree that there is grave danger CY will end up post-settlement (whenever that might be), with a cast-in-stone, unchanging constitution cos this will suit some people. The mistakes of 1960 repeated. There has to be an agreed mechanism for future changes by which certainly don't mean "veto"

You give the example of the changing USA constitution (and all will be familiar with one or two of the Amendments, some of the criminal propagandists here will be know of the Fifth). Many may be more familiar with the remarkably even more flexible GB constitution. So flexible in that we here in GB don't really have one, in the meaning of a single document, being, as it is, spread across and evolving in bits of unconnected legislation and sometimes even in simple unwritten conventions and traditions.