Cyprus-Forum.com

[Lit]

Patriots are loudest when they are far from the storm
By Loucas Charalambous

A PHENOMENON very familiar to Cyprus – the super-patriotism of the overseas national – also appears have reared its head in Armenia.

Before the government of Armenia had even signed the historic agreement with Turkey, which would restore relations between the two countries and would put an end to almost a century of hostility, the Armenians of the Diaspora had begun to react.

Thanks CBBB. I realized that because of your "Pot, kettle, black?" thread and how the fanatic yfronts responded in that thread...that you were going to look for parity because you want to look like your a real down to earth progressive and its a more convenient political point to make then saying that one side is really way more out of line then the other side. After all, those who do not show parity are extremists. Right? And it doesnt surprise that you would choose the rag that is the Cyprus mail to make that point. Now excuse me while i shred poor Louca's article into pieces. Enjoy.

Doesn't Louca realize that the overwhelming majority of Armenian diaspora communities were founded as a result of the Armenian genocide? Louca neglects to mention the word genocide.....why did the Armenian diaspora react? They reacted because there was no mention in the agreement for the crimes that were committed against them.

Diaspora? Ha! The funny thing is, Louca also neglects to mention the overwhelming opposition to this agreement in Ankara. So much so that one day after the agreement was signed.... Turkey set tough new condition for normalizing ties.

For once, get it right, Louca! This agreement will never be implemented because of the fanaticism emanating from Ankara....not because of the reaction from the Armenian diaspora. When are you going to mention the "fiery speech" coming out of Ankara who, because of this so called agreement, are shouting that it's a Black Day for Turks:


_ _ _ _ _ _ _

http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/90949 ... urks-.html

* Turkish opposition criticizes Armenia deal, terms it a ‘step backward'

* Leftist Republican people's Party (CHP): "Turkey Makes Unilateral Concessions"

* Nationalist Action Party (MHP): "The Day The Armenian Agreement Signed is a Black Day for Turks"

Turkish opposition parties have criticized an agreement signed between Turkey and Armenia on Saturday to establish diplomatic relations by describing the move a “step backward” in Turkish foreign policy.

Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu and his Armenian counterpart, Eduard Nalbandian, signed an agreement in Zurich to reinstate formal ties and reopen a border closed since 1993, within two months of its ratification by both parliaments.

Main opposition Republican People's Party (CHP) Deputy Chairman Onur Oymen said that the protocol signed in Zurich is evidence that Turkey has taken a step back in its fundamental foreign policy regarding Armenia for the past 17 years.

Turkey was one of the first countries to recognize Armenia's independence in 1991, but the two countries never established diplomatic relations and sealed their border after the 1993 Armenian invasion of Azerbaijan's Nagorno-Karabakh.

Indicating that a process of normalization with Armenia can only take place if Armenia withdraws from Azerbaijani territory, Oymen argued that Turkey had made unilateral concessions with the agreement.

“There will be great pressure in Turkey following these signatures because the protocol texts include articles about Turkey opening its border and establishing diplomatic ties, but there is not even the slightest sign that Armenia will withdraw from the territories it invaded. There is not the slightest reference to the Nagorno-Karabakh dispute,” Mr. Oymen said.

Nationalist Movement Party (MHP) leader Devlet Bahçeli said the day the agreement was signed was a “black day.” He said protocols signed with Armenia were not based on reciprocity and that they were not equal and balanced.

Felicity Party (SP) leader Numan Kurtulmuş also joined the critics of the protocol, describing it a “historic mistake.” He said this issue first being handled in Parliament, which represents the will of the nation, was the necessity of democratic ethics. “The [Justice and Development Party] AK Party's concessive attitude under the cover of its ‘zero problems policy' not only undermines Turkish foreign policy, it also casts a shadow over Turkey's prestige,” Kurtulmuş said.

In the meantime, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan said Armenia's withdrawal from Azerbaijan's Nagorno-Karabakh would help gain his Parliament's approval for a peace accord signed between Turkey and Armenia. "We as a government paved the way for this cooperation, but whether or not it will be applied is up to Parliament to decide," he told a party congress in Ankara.

[CBBB]

Thanks CBBB. I realized that because of your "Pot, kettle, black?" thread and how the fanatic yfronts responded in that thread...that you were going to look for parity because you want to look like your a real down to earth progressive

I post articles that I find interesting and I think will create debate. If you look at articles I have posted in the past you will find that they cover a variety of differing opinions.

[Pax]

This is a thoughtful piece from Friday's Hurriyet

'The Armenian Initiative and the Hrant Dink murder case'

CENGİZ AKTAR

The agenda is full again. Following the signature ceremony of the protocols, the hawks in Azerbaijan, Armenia and Turkey, as well as from the Armenian diaspora, have increased their criticism of the protocols to an obnoxious level, or at least to an ill-intended level.

On Monday, the 11th trial of the murderers of the Armenian-Turkish journalist Hrant Dink began. On Wednesday, we had a soccer game with Armenia. On the very same day, the European Commission released its 12th Progress Report on Turkey. Not all developments are noted in the report, as it is not easy to keep up with the crazy events in Turkey.

Regardless of the end result, the protocols are a harbinger of a brand-new period. New foundations are being laid down not only between Turkey and Armenia, but also in the larger Caucasus, including Azerbaijan, Georgia and even Iran and Russia. On the other side, this historic signing will most likely affect relations with the Armenian world and with the Armenian diaspora in particular. Owing to the protocols, differences have surfaced within the diaspora – clear evidence that it never was a monolithic entity. Within the diaspora, there are a limited number of people who are making a lot of noise. They do not care about the future of the Armenian Republic, make unrealistic demands and claim that it sold out the diaspora. They are not necessarily members of the historic Anatolian Armenian parties such as the Dashnaktsutyun, or Armenian Revolutionary Federation, the Hinchak, or the Sound of the Bell, and the Ramgavar, or the Democratic Liberal Party of Armenia. Some are unfortunately former Armenian state officials and politicians, such as former Foreign Minister Vartan Oskanian, who had supported dialog during his time in office. On the other hand, there is a silent majority that is calm and sober enough to grasp the importance of the protocols.

The best example of this silent majority is the Armenian General Benevolent Union, or AGBU, which has been in existence since 1906 and has branches around the world. On Sept. 14, 2009, the Central Board of Directors of the AGBU released a statement at www.agbu.org/pressoffice/article.asp?ID=626 in support of the protocols, but this went unnoticed. In the statement, the AGBU said “[The protocols] mark a significant moment in the history of relations between the Armenian and Turkish peoples. It presents major ramifications for both the government of the newly independent Republic of Armenia and the Armenian nation worldwide.”

On this matter, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan should be better advised to note the nuances in the diaspora, as he has insistently presented the diaspora as a monolithic group.

Last holdout the Hrant Dink Case?

In addition to all these developments, “Hrant’s friends” gathered in front of the Barbaros Monument in Beşiktaş on Monday, announcing the following in a statement to the press: “Today, we could have taken major steps toward justice. We could have shed a light on who directed, protected this flock of murderers and what was the motive of the state officials in question who helped them. We could have taken at least a bit of comfort. If we weren’t able to, it’s because we were prevented from achieving justice. Apparently, it is not the right time for a “Hrant Dink Opening.”

They are right indeed! Despite the fact that the court has been more receptive to the demands of Hrant's lawyers in comparison to the previous ten sittings, we should acknowledge that the state has been reluctant and unfair during the Hrant Dink murder case. Especially now, when, irrespective of its consequences, the initiative toward Armenia looks to be taking an historic turn; especially now, when there has been progress on the issue of non-Muslim foundations, including those of the Armenians; when civilian initiatives are coming one after the other; when Turkey has started to recall its lost “Armenian memory;” and when we are at the point of no return. However, the last nationalist holdout still standing is the murder case of Hrant Dink, a person who contributed in one way or another to making all these positive developments happen.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=initiative-towards-armenia-and-the-hrant-dink-murder-case-2009-10-16

[zan]

An article for Paphitis, Zan and some ohers!

Patriots are loudest when they are far from the storm

Poor Zanny, has never advocated a military solution… he’s as peaceful as they get! I’m the one who strongly believes in a military solution and I happen to be living IN Cyprus turning this article on its head!

I am glad this thread is short and I could read through all the posts because I would have missed this...


Thanks ( I will not call you cousin again because yopu got enough stick from the idiots last time ) GR. The pushtienglasisiosis are looking at everything to have a go at me. I am afraid their enthusiasm gets the better of them and they don't quite think it through:lol:

[bill cobbett]

Can I just say that in my experiences of talking to friends and others in real life about Cyprob. The CYs of CY are far more likely to take a firmer, more beligerant, more militaristic approach, a more GR approach (if he'll forgive me for using him as example).

Diaspora CYs, again to my experience, are far more lkely to promote more peaceful means.

Is Loogas trying to pick easy targets in the Diasporas, to discredit and cut them off from the homeland for his Appeasement?

[Lit]

Thanks CBBB. I realized that because of your "Pot, kettle, black?" thread and how the fanatic yfronts responded in that thread...that you were going to look for parity because you want to look like your a real down to earth progressive and its a more convenient political point to make then saying that one side is really way more out of line then the other side. After all, those who do not show parity are extremists. Right? And it doesnt surprise that you would choose the rag that is the Cyprus mail to make that point. Now excuse me while i shred poor Louca's article into pieces. Enjoy.

Doesn't Louca realize that the overwhelming majority of Armenian diaspora communities were founded as a result of the Armenian genocide? Louca neglects to mention the word genocide.....why did the Armenian diaspora react? They reacted because there was no mention in the agreement for the crimes that were committed against them.

Diaspora? Ha! The funny thing is, Louca also neglects to mention the overwhelming opposition to this agreement in Ankara. So much so that one day after the agreement was signed.... Turkey set tough new condition for normalizing ties.

http://news.am/en/news/6777.html

U.S. leader urges Turkish President step up efforts

During a telephone conversation with his Turkish counterpart Abdullah Gul, U.S. President Barack Obama discussed the situation in Afghanistan and the Armenian-Turkish rapprochement.

The two leaders talked about “historic progress” that is being made to normalize relations between longtime foes Turkey and Armenia and stressed the importance of intensifying necessary efforts, reported Associated Press.

A high-ranking official of the U.S. Department of State, who was member of the U.S. delegation led by U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton during the Zurich ceremony, told Associated Press that the United State is interested in the Armenian-Turkish border being reopened for the primary reason that it will open a way to Afghanistan.

U.S. President Barack Obama intends to state again the necessity of ratifying the Armenia-Turkey Protocols signed in Zurich on October 10 as soon as possible, a high-ranking European diplomat told NEWS.am.

During his meeting with Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan on October 19, President Obama intends to voice the U.S. position: linking the ratification with other issues is fraught with a breakdown of the Armenia-Turkey normalization process, which is unacceptable. Moreover, if the voting fails in the Turkish Parliament, Erdogan may be relieved of his post, as Turkish President Abdullah Gul’s position is ratifying the protocols in the near future without any preconditions, including ones related to the Nagorno-Karabakh peace process.

[Tim Drayton]

http://news.am/en/news/6777.html

[...]

Moreover, if the voting fails in the Turkish Parliament, Erdogan may be relieved of his post, as Turkish President Abdullah Gul’s position is ratifying the protocols in the near future without any preconditions, including ones related to the Nagorno-Karabakh peace process.

If I have understood that last sentence correctly, the author appears to know very little about the Turkish political system. The presidency in Turkey is a fairly ceremonial office and the incumbent does not have the power to dismiss the prime-minister from office.

[Lit]

http://news.am/en/news/6777.html

[...]

Moreover, if the voting fails in the Turkish Parliament, Erdogan may be relieved of his post, as Turkish President Abdullah Gul’s position is ratifying the protocols in the near future without any preconditions, including ones related to the Nagorno-Karabakh peace process.

If I have understood that last sentence correctly, the author appears to know very little about the Turkish political system. The presidency in Turkey is a fairly ceremonial office and the incumbent does not have the power to dismiss the prime-minister from office.

"Moreover, if the voting fails in the Turkish Parliament, Erdogan may be relieved of his post,"

Tim
Where does it say in the article that it is the President who will dismiss the Prime Minister?

[Tim Drayton]

http://news.am/en/news/6777.html

[...]

Moreover, if the voting fails in the Turkish Parliament, Erdogan may be relieved of his post, as Turkish President Abdullah Gul’s position is ratifying the protocols in the near future without any preconditions, including ones related to the Nagorno-Karabakh peace process.

If I have understood that last sentence correctly, the author appears to know very little about the Turkish political system. The presidency in Turkey is a fairly ceremonial office and the incumbent does not have the power to dismiss the prime-minister from office.

"Moreover, if the voting fails in the Turkish Parliament, Erdogan may be relieved of his post,"

Tim
Where does it say in the article that it is the President who will dismiss the Prime Minister?

The sentence is very badly written, but the word 'as' which introduces the next clause after the part of the sentence that you have chosen to quote appears to be used as a conjunction meaning 'for the reason that' and its use implies to me that Erdogan will be dismissed because he will fall foul of the president's so-called position (which in fact would only be a private matter if he indeed held a particular position). If you can provide me with a different interpretation of this clumsily worded sentence (as a whole) I would be happy to hear it.

[Paphitis]

.. and another thing ...

Many, many in the Diasporas have a personal and very real interest in the property issue. Large tracts of CY are owned by the Diasporas.

Is Loukas also saying to us that the Diasporas will be treated as second-class by being denied a say, of being silenced, in what happens on this property matter?

You are absolutely correct Bill....

Allow me to also add, that many in the diaspora are not only in the diaspora as a consequence of the invasion and have lost property, but they have also lost loved ones, and friends, many of which are still unaccounted for.

But Bill, never ever forget that both you and I will be well beneath second class....

You and I are a third class Cypriots. GCs living in Cyprus are second class citizens!

You can work out for yourself who the first class 'Cypriots' ARE, and will remain so post solution!

Also, the chance of a solution coming out of these talks is extremely remote. There is very little the diaspora or anyone else can do about this.

But the diaspora continues to form pressure and lobby groups, and this really does amaze me, because the diaspora could almost be forgiven for just letting go of Cyprus, and just take their property and human rights claims to the ECHR and ECJ. The fact that few can't let go of Cyprus is amazing, and these Cypriots are nationalists or patriots...but they are a dieing breed!

The diaspora does not have any say on the future of Cyprus, and so it will remain.

If anyone finds that acceptable, then I don't know what to say...

BillC wrote:

Can I just say that in my experiences of talking to friends and others in real life about Cyprob. The CYs of CY are far more likely to take a firmer, more beligerant, more militaristic approach, a more GR approach (if he'll forgive me for using him as example).

Diaspora CYs, again to my experience, are far more lkely to promote more peaceful means.

Is Loogas trying to pick easy targets in the Diasporas, to discredit and cut them off from the homeland for his Appeasement?

The above is also true...

Some are trying to cut off the diaspora completely because it will allow them to more easily bring forth derogations to fundamental democratic and human rights which could never ever see the day of light in our adopted countries.

But this is inconsequential, as the diaspora is cut off from Cyprus, due to RoC Government policies on voting as well as many other things too numerous to list.

But if that's what they want, then so be it. Cypriots in Cyprus will create the Cyprus of tomorrow, and the diaspora can always remain within their adopted countries if they don't like the Cyprus of tomorrow. So in the end, the Cypriots of the diaspora will lose their homeland, but Cypriots living in Cyprus will potentially lose their homeland over time or at the very least, grow to accept Apartheid...