Cyprus-Forum.com

[Paphitis]

Nice post Piratis.

George Vasiliou may have achieved a lot during his Presidency, such as EU accession even, but this does not give him the right to offer political commentary which appear more like threats.

It appears he has now joining the DISY doomsday morbid lot, who keep telling us that this will be our last chance for a solution. How can this be the case when the RoC has de jure legitimacy over the entire island and that the entire island has entered into the EU with the EU Acquis Communitaire only temporarily suspended over the occupied territories?

We were also told that the Annan Plan would be our final hope, but this was not the case.

At worst, trade restrictions would be eased, but Airports and Ports can not open unless the RoC allows them to open, and this is unquestionably enshrined within various treaties such as the Chicago Convention. So obviously, any trade from the occupied areas will only be permitted through legitimate ports of entry as defined by the recognised RoC Government.

George Vasiliou is only a shadow of his former self, since he only attracts 1% of the vote.

[Jerry]

Are we approaching the end game or will the forthcoming legal and EU decisions divert Turkey from enforcing partition. My belief is that Turkey will offer us back enough territory for us to accept a federation that will, in time, evolve into legal annexation of the north by Turkey. The majority of TCs wil be "persuaded" to move south by their masters so we end up with a smaller ROC inhabited by both communities and a permanent and internationally accepted Turkish province in the north - the worst possible outcome.

[Nikitas]

Jerry,

Your scenario would hold if there was a way to eclude GCs totally from the north, in which case, on the principle of mutuality the south would then exclude TCs from owning land or residing in the south.

The call for derogations from the EU acquis and the insistence that land ownership should be regulated so as to reflect bizonality in terms of land ownership is a TC attempt to achieve this goal of separation. But again, mutuality kicks in and the exclusion is mutual. The problem which TCs face is that no matter what they attempt, the major part of the economy and wealth will be in the south because of reasons which they cannot control. So they have to choose between exclusion or participation in wealth. Most of their preoccupation has to do with a collective fantasy than reality, but that is another story.

[YFred]

Vassiliou stresses the full implementation of the four basic freedoms on which the EU is founded.

Is Talat ready to implement those four basic freedoms?

Vassiliou is a marketing consultant and has the gift of writing in a way that appeals to everyone, in a style full of positive messages. He manages to exclude from his text what he would not accept in a negotiation. But even he, with all this positive attitude, could not negotiate with the Turkish side. This is interesting, he managed to negotiate succesfully with the whole of the EU but not with the TCs, and that should tell us something.

Christofias is even more flexible than Vassiliou, he accepted the permanent residence and naturalisation of 50 000 settlers and the rotating presidency before the talks began. What response has he had to that goodwill gesture? None so far. The other side is a tight fisted miser when it comes to good will.

Nikitas you miss the main point. He is talking about the achievable not the desirable. What most GCs cannot see to this day is that the desirable is a dream and has no chance of being achieved. Even Makarios realised in 1968 that the desirable could not be achieved which explains why they tried to kill him 4 times.
Sure we will have the 4 basic principles in each components state. The EU will accept what ever it says in the agreement. What will not be allowed is the application of the EU laws to swamp the northern Territory by the more rich and powerful south. The derogation may last forever, the EU does not care. If you think different then, agree to it and use the EU to try to change it. You will hit a brick wall.

GCs go on about the Turkish soldiers in TRNC and how they will use the EU to try to remove them. When the Accession talks with Turkey started and Cyprus signed it, as the soldiers were already here they now can do nothing about it. The only issue they would be able to use is the ports and even then they need support from more that Greece to be able to do it. If Germany UK and France are against Cyprus, they will not be able to use even the ports issue.

I really wish GC stopped trying to use others to get their way. It has not worked in 35 years and it will not work in another 35 thousand years.

[insan]

Bah! the summary of National Council decisions clearly indicate that we r rapidly going through the final round of the talks which will end up with Taiwanisation of TRNC and after a while, full recognition will follow...

Then you've got nothing to worry about...

The only thing I feel sad but not worried about is the incapability of majority of 2 communities to sort out their differences in Cyprus and Greeks and Turks in our region...

[halil]

Nikitas i think below agreement was than between TC side and Vasiliou

Draft Framework Agreement on Cyprus, 29 March
1986
Recognising with satisfaction that the initiative of the Secretary-General, which
bore in mind the relevant United Nations resolutions and which began in August
1984 in Vienna and continued through the high-level proximity talks from
September to December 1984 and the joint high- level meeting of January 1985
held in New York, has now resulted in an important step towards a just and lasting
settlement of the Cyprus problem; The parties agree on the following matters
which are to be viewed as an integrated whole:
I.1 The Parties:
(a) Recommit themselves to the high-level agreements of 1977 and 1979;
(b) Indicate their determination to proceed, at the date referred to in paragraph
15.1 below, to the establishment of a Federal Republic that will be independent
and non-aligned, bi-communal as regards the federal constitutional aspect and bizonal
as regards the territorial aspect;
(c) Reaffirm their acceptance of those introductory constitutional provisions that
were agreed upon at the intercommunal talks in 1981-82;
(i) The Federal Republic of Cyprus shall have international personality. The federal
government shall exercise sovereignty in respect of all of the territory. The
attributes of international personality shall be exercised by the federal government
in accordance with the federal constitution. The provinces or federated states may
act in their areas of competence in accordance with the federal constitution and in
a manner that would not duplicate the powers and functions of the federal
government as defined in the federal constitution.
(ii) The people of the Federal Republic shall comprise the Greek Cypriot community
and the Turkish Cypriot community. There shall be a single citizenship of the
Federal Republic of Cyprus regulated by federal law.
(iii) The territory of the Federal Republic shall comprise the two provinces or
federated states.
(iv) The official languages of the Federal Republic shall be Greek and Turkish. The
English language may also be used.
(v) The Federal Republic shall have a neutral flag and anthem to be agreed. Each
province or federated state may have its own flag using mainly elements of the
federal flag. The federal flag shall be flown on federal buildings and federal
locations to the exclusion of any other flag.
(vi) The federal government shall observe the holidays of the Federal Republic.
Each province or federated state shall observe the federal holidays as well as those
established by it.
(vii) The parties reaffirm all other points that were agreed upon during the course
of the intercommunal talks as contained in the 'revision' dated 18 May 1982
concerning general provisions. Part I, fundamental rights and liberties. Part H, as
well as Parts III and IV.
2.1 The powers and functions to be vested in the federal government of the
Federal Republic shall comprise:
(a) Foreign affairs.
(b) Federal financial affairs (including federal budget, taxation, customs and excise
duties).
(c) Monetary and banking affairs.
(d) Federal economic affairs (including trade and tourism).
(e) Posts and telecommunications.
(f) International transport.
(g) Natural resources (including water supply, environment).
(h) Federal health and veterinary affairs.
(i) Standard setting: weights and measures, patents, trademarks,
copyrights.
(j) Federal judiciary.
(k) Appointment of federal officers.
(1) Defence (to be discussed also in connection with the treaties of guarantee and
of alliance); security (as it pertains to federal responsibility).
2.2 Additional powers and functions may be vested in the federal government by
common agreement of both sides. Accordingly, the residual powers shall rest with
the provinces or federated states. Federal legislation may be executed either by
authorities of the federal government or by
way of coordination between the competent authorities of the federal government
and of the two provinces or federated states.
3.1 The legislature of the Federal Republic will be composed of two chambers: a
lower chamber with a 70-30 Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot representation, and
an upper chamber with a 50-50 representation. Federal legislation will be enacted
with regard to the matters of federal competence as referred to in paragraph 2.1
above. The adoption of legislation on major matters, as for instance on ten of the
twelve functions referred to in paragraph 2.1 above, will require separate
majorities in both chambers. The adoption of legislation on other matters will
require majorities of the membership in each chamber.
3.2 Appropriate constitutional safeguards and deadlock resolving machinery
including special provisions to facilitate action on matters necessary for the
continued functioning of the federal government (e.g. on budgetary questions) will
be incorporated in the federal constitution. In case of deadlock in the legislature,
the proposed legislation may be submitted in the first instance to a conciliation
committee of the legislature composed of three Greek Cypriots and two Turkish
Cypriots, whose decision will be taken on the basis of majority vote including at
least one Turkish Cypriot. If the deadlock persists, the president and vice-president
of the Federal Republic will, upon request, appoint on an ad hoc basis one persons
each, selected for their knowledge of the subject involved, who, with the
assistance of experts as needed, including from outside the Federal Republic of
Cyprus, will advise the legislature on ways the deadlock could be resolved. The
matter may also be submitted to a referendum among the population of the
community which opposed the draft legislation. Legislation adopted by the
legislature may be taken to the Constitutional Court for ruling as to whether it
violates the constitution or is discriminatory against either community.
4.1 The Federal Republic will have a presidential system of government. The
president and the vice-president will symbolise the unity of the country and the
equal political status of the two communities. In addition, the executive will
reflect the functional requirements of an effective federal government.
4.2 The president will be a Greek Cypriot and the vice-president will be a Turkish
Cypriot. The president and the vice-president will, separately or conjointly, have
the right to veto any law or decision of the legislature and the Council of Ministers
in areas to be agreed upon, it being understood that the scope will exceed that
covered by the 1960 constitution. The president and the vice-president will have
the right, separately or conjointly, to return any law or decision of the legislature
or any decision of the Council of Ministers for reconsideration.
4.3 The Council of Ministers will be composed of Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot
ministers on a 7 to 3 ratio. One major ministry will be headed by a Turkish Cypriot,
it being understood that the parties agree to discuss that the Minister for Foreign
Affairs will be a Turkish Cypriot. The Council of Ministers will take decisions by
weighted voting, that is a simple majority including at least one Turkish Cypriot
minister. It is understood that the parties agree to discuss that weighted voting will
apply to all matters of special concern to the Turkish Cypriot community to be
agreed upon.
4.4 Appropriate constitutional safeguards and deadlock resolving machinery related
to decisions by the Council of Ministers, including special provisions to facilitate
action on matters necessary for the continued functioning of the federal
government, will be incorporated in the federal constitution. In case of deadlock,
the president and vice- president of the Federal Republic will, upon request,
appoint on an ad hoc basis one person each, selected for their knowledge of the
subject involved, who, with the assistance of experts as needed, including from
outside the Federal Republic of Cyprus, will advise the Council of Ministers on ways
the deadlock could be resolved. The matter may also be submitted to a referendum
among the population of the community which opposed the draft decision. A
decision by the Council of Ministers may be taken to the Constitutional Court for
ruling as to whether it violates the constitution or is discriminatory against either
community.
5.1 The Constitutional Court, when ruling on disputes relating to the distribution of
powers and functions between the federal government and the provinces or
federated states and on such other matters as may be assigned to it by the parties
in accordance with the federal constitution, will be composed of one Greek
Cypriot, one Turkish Cypriot and one non-Cypriot voting member,
6.1 As regards freedom of movement, freedom of settlement and right to property,
a working group will discuss the exercise of these rights, including time-frames,
practical regulations and possible compensation arrangements, taking into account
guideline 3 of the 1977 agreement.
7.1 Territorial adjustments, in addition to the areas already referred to in the 5
August 1981 Turkish Cypriot proposals, will be agreed upon. These territorial
adjustments will result in the Turkish Cypriot province or federated state
comprising in the order of 29 plus per cent of the territory of the Federal Republic.
It is understood that when discussing the actual territorial adjustments the two
sides will have in mind the 1977 high-level agreement including 'certain practical
difficulties which may arise for the Turkish Cypriot community' and the questions
related to resettlement. Both sides agree to suggest special status areas adjacent
to each other for the purpose of enhancing trust between the sides. These areas
will remain under their respective civilian jurisdictions.
8.1 A timetable for the withdrawal of non-Cypriot military troops and elements, as
well as adequate guarantees, will be agreed upon prior to the establishment of a
transitional federal government. In the meantime, military deconfrontation
measures will be pursued by both sides, using the good offices and assistance of
UNFICYP.
8.2 The two sides undertake to discuss these issues in good faith and to consider
each other's concerns on them.
9.1 A Fund for Development of the Turkish Cypriot province or federated state shall
be established with a view to achieving an economic equilibrium between the two
provinces or federated states. A fund will also be established to facilitate the
resettlement of the Greek Cypriot displaced persons, and for the Turkish Cypriots
displaced as a consequence of the implementation of paragraph 7.1. The federal
government shall contribute to these funds. Foreign governments and international
organisations shall be invited to contribute to the funds.
10.1 The Varosha area and the six additional areas delineated in the Turkish
Cypriot map of 5 August 1981 will be placed under United Nations interim
administration as part of the UNFICYP buffer zone for resettlement by....
11.1 Both parties agree not to take any action tending to prejudice the process
outlined in this agreement, both on the international scene and internally.
12.1 The Nicosia international airport will be reopened under interim United
Nations administration with free access from both sides. The United Nations will
conclude the arrangements to that effect by....
13.1 Adequate machinery for considering allegations of non-implementation of
confidence-building measures will be agreed upon. The Secretary-General will
make appropriate recommendations to both sides in this regard.
14.1 The parties to agree to establish working groups to work out the detailed
agreements on the matters referred to in this agreement, whose elements are
inter-related and constitute an integrated whole. The working groups will carry out
their work under the direction of joint high-level
meetings. These joint high-level meetings will take place every three to four
months, on the basis of an agenda prepared by the Secretary-General, to discuss
the issues which remain to be negotiated under this agreement, to review the work
and provide guidance to the working groups. The joint high-level meetings will be
convened by the Secretary-General after adequate preparation.
14.2 Each working group will be composed of delegations from the two sides and
will be chaired by a representative of the Secretary-General. The working groups
will begin their meetings at the United Nations premises in Nicosia on.... Each
working group will prepare a programme of work and will submit it for approval
and guidance to the joint high-level meeting which will take place at the United
Nations premises in Nicosia on....
14.3 The representative of the Secretary-General chairing each working group will
every three months prepare an assessment of the progress made by the working
group, which will be presented to the next joint high-level meeting together with
the views of the Secretary-General.
15.1 The parties agree that, the required working groups having completed their
work and having obtained the approval of the two sides, the transitional federal
government of the Federal Republic of Cyprus will be set up on....
16.1 The Secretary-General will remain at the disposal of the parties to assist in
the elaboration of this agreement, and, if required, in its interpretation.

[Jerry]

Jerry,

Your scenario would hold if there was a way to eclude GCs totally from the north, in which case, on the principle of mutuality the south would then exclude TCs from owning land or residing in the south.

The call for derogations from the EU acquis and the insistence that land ownership should be regulated so as to reflect bizonality in terms of land ownership is a TC attempt to achieve this goal of separation. But again, mutuality kicks in and the exclusion is mutual. The problem which TCs face is that no matter what they attempt, the major part of the economy and wealth will be in the south because of reasons which they cannot control. So they have to choose between exclusion or participation in wealth. Most of their preoccupation has to do with a collective fantasy than reality, but that is another story.

I understand the mutality point, however with a sufficient bribe (territory)the Turks could no doubt persuade us to allow temporary derogations that would in practice become permanent, that is to say we would not like to move back to a Turkish state. The TCs are EU citizens, we cannot stop them returning. Turkey wants a permanent presence on the island, it cares little for TCs, settlers or carpetbaggers. If they were offered 20% of the island with no strings attached they, in my opinion, would jump at the opportunity, we would end up with 80% of the island and possibly the same problems we had in 1960.

[Get Real!]

What most GCs cannot see to this day is that the desirable is a dream and has no chance of being achieved.

What’s all this mumbo jumbo about "achievable" and "desirable" that some of you seem to have latched onto lately?

Had you asked the average Turkish Cypriot about the possibility of a “TC State” would he have said its achievable one month before the Turkish invasion? Of course not!

So what does that tell us? That the desirable CAN be made achievable with the right resources and tools!

I really wish GC stopped trying to use others to get their way. It has not worked in 35 years and it will not work in another 35 thousand years.

But isn’t that exactly what Turkish Cypriots are doing who can’t fight their own battles? Could the Turkish Cypriots stand up to the Republic these days and ask for stupid things without Turkey?

[YFred]

What most GCs cannot see to this day is that the desirable is a dream and has no chance of being achieved.

What’s all this mumbo jumbo about "achievable" and "desirable" that some of you seem to have latched onto lately?

Had you asked the average Turkish Cypriot about the possibility of a “TC State” would he have said its achievable one month before the Turkish invasion? Of course not!

So what does that tell us? That the desirable CAN be made achievable with the right resources and tools!

I really wish GC stopped trying to use others to get their way. It has not worked in 35 years and it will not work in another 35 thousand years.

But isn’t that exactly what Turkish Cypriots are doing who can’t fight their own battles? Could the Turkish Cypriots stand up to the Republic these days and ask for stupid things without Turkey?

There is nothing new about desirables. It has always been there from 1960, the moment the fools signed the akritas plan. Call it maximalists call it anything you like. It's all the same and certainly it is not new.

Turkey is not others. Turkey signed a guaranty agreement to protect the TCs. Considering the losses between 63 and 74 and since 74, I do think that she did her job.

[Get Real!]

What most GCs cannot see to this day is that the desirable is a dream and has no chance of being achieved.

What’s all this mumbo jumbo about "achievable" and "desirable" that some of you seem to have latched onto lately?

Had you asked the average Turkish Cypriot about the possibility of a “TC State” would he have said its achievable one month before the Turkish invasion? Of course not!

So what does that tell us? That the desirable CAN be made achievable with the right resources and tools!

I really wish GC stopped trying to use others to get their way. It has not worked in 35 years and it will not work in another 35 thousand years.

But isn’t that exactly what Turkish Cypriots are doing who can’t fight their own battles? Could the Turkish Cypriots stand up to the Republic these days and ask for stupid things without Turkey?

There is nothing new about desirables. It has always been there from 1960, the moment the fools signed the akritas plan. Call it maximalists call it anything you like. It's all the same and certainly it is not new.

Turkey is not others. Turkey signed a guaranty agreement to protect the TCs. Considering the losses between 63 and 74 and since 74, I do think that she did her job.

??? You seem to have started getting your responses all mixed up...