Cyprus-Forum.com

[Anglo]

This is contrary to what Magikthrill would have us believe - that people have weighed the information, come to a moral conclusion and then applied pressure on their elected representatives.

Im guessing reading between the liens is not very much your thing is it anglo?

I was referring to the GC londoners. I think it is redundant to assume that londoners are aware of any political situation (aside from the recent bombings) let alone the Cyprus issue.

You mean to say that when you said "Londoners" I was expected to deduce that you in fact meant the 2% of the population deriving from Greek Cyprus? You don't want me to read between the lines, you want me to read your mind...

[Michael Coumas]

If it is of any help I can tell you that I asked someone to call a local agent to try & get me a ticket to Cyprus yesterday. Apparently the agent’s manager indulged in polite conversation & commented that I had only returned a few weeks ago so it was explained that I had to return etc etc. To cut a long story short the call was put through to me as it was felt I would be interested in what the agent had to say regarding her friend. Apparently her friend is seriously considering the purchase of a villa in the North as it is so cheap. I took the time to try and educate the lady, explained the possibility of stolen land & asked her to pass on my comments to her friend but I got the impression that her friend was aware of the situation but was not that concerned as she could see an opportunity to make some money. I was also amazed at the ignorance displayed by a travel agent. I shall call in to see them on Saturday & if I feel it necessary that will be the last ticket we get from there.

[Anglo]

If it is of any help I can tell you that I asked someone to call a local agent to try & get me a ticket to Cyprus yesterday. Apparently the agent’s manager indulged in polite conversation & commented that I had only returned a few weeks ago so it was explained that I had to return etc etc. To cut a long story short the call was put through to me as it was felt I would be interested in what the agent had to say regarding her friend. Apparently her friend is seriously considering the purchase of a villa in the North as it is so cheap. I took the time to try and educate the lady, explained the possibility of stolen land & asked her to pass on my comments to her friend but I got the impression that her friend was aware of the situation but was not that concerned as she could see an opportunity to make some money. I was also amazed at the ignorance displayed by a travel agent. I shall call in to see them on Saturday & if I feel it necessary that will be the last ticket we get from there.

Michael, most investors see the land they are buying for villas etc not as stolen but 'exchanged'. You may argue that the former Greek occupiers of the land had no say in this exchange but investors are told to differentiate between land that was allocated to TC refugees as compensation for what they lost in Paphos/Limasol/Larnaca etc as opposed to land that was 'gifted' to TCs/Turkish mainlanders.

From a neutral standpoint it seems fair to many buyers that TC refugees - in the absence of a political settlement - make use of an asset that they have some powewrful claim to in the current circumstances. Also, the TRNC government issues title deeds and accepts tax payments - further legitimising the transaction in the eyes of the buyers.

Of course, the other factor upper most in buyers' minds is the likelihood that the Annan Plan will form the bones of any solution. And its property provisions will only become more entrenched as time passes.

Another factor is the distance of time: it has been thirty-one years since the disspossession of this land and will probably be another thirty-one years before there is a solution - this is how people are taking a pragmatic view, that the longer the period for the solution to happen the more likely a negotiated settlement with total safeguards for their purchases becomes.

Also, you might want to know that people are not solely buying in North Cyprus because it is 'cheap'. Prices have risen nearly 100% in two years, the local infrastructure is generally second world, there are no direct flights and there is the constant questioning of their right to purchase from the GC quarter. Most end-users, not investors, are buying because the quality of life is superior to many other places, including south Cyprus.

[Kifeas]

Michael, most investors see the land they are buying for villas etc not as stolen but 'exchanged'. You may argue that the former Greek occupiers of the land had no say in this exchange but investors are told to differentiate between land that was allocated to TC refugees as compensation for what they lost in Paphos/Limasol/Larnaca etc as opposed to land that was 'gifted' to TCs/Turkish mainlanders.

Anglo,
You are making a major mistake here when you are saying that the investors are told to differentiate between land that was allocated to TC refuges as compensation, etc. This allegation is meaningless because:

1. There is no way to differentiate such land from any other type of land, including pre-1974 TC owned, due to the fact that the new “title deeds,” re-issued by “TRNC” some 12-13 years ago (early 90’s) are identical between them and there is no mention whether they were issued in exchange of other property in the south or pre-1974 TC owned, etc.
   
2. Even if someone attempts to investigate the issue more deeply -through the “land registries” of the “TRNC,” something very few people (foreign buyers) will know and /or think to do, the only thing they will find out is whether the land was pre-1974 TC owned or if it was allocated to them via the credit-point system invented by Denktash after 1974. This information does not clarify whether the points allocated to the person that got possession of the land in this way, has gotten the credit points because of land ownership (exchange) in the south or because of any other reasons such as credit for services in the war, as an incentive to migrate from Turkey into Cyprus (settler,) or as a gift by Denktash (there were many such cases,) etc.
   
   My uncle has 5 donums of land in Lapithos, next to our property. This land was given to a mainland Turk who participated in the 1974 invasion. (I found this information from some TCs from Akoursos village who used to occupy my father’s land next to him and they speak perfect Greek.) Recently he sold this land to a developer who is building 4 huge villas inside, for about 35,000 UKP per donum (quite less than the current market value in the area which is about 80,000 UKP,) and he used part of this money to double the size of my uncle’s house in which he resides. He could have as well escaped to Turkey after the sale. Is this a case of “exchanged” land? Who will pay my uncle?
   
3. There is absolutely no guarantee that the allocation of points based on the property left back in the south has been done on an accurate basis, i.e., value of property in the south to equate with value of property given in the north, etc.
   
   I happen to have personal knowledge of this fact, with the case of the TCs that were given my land in Lapithos. For 7 donums of dry-mountain land in Akoursos village in Pafos (some 15 kms away from the nearest town which is Peyia,) they were given 9 donums of land on the coast of Lapithos (Lapta.) The value of their Akoursos land today, based on the value of other GC properties around it, is about 2,500 CYP per donum. In 1974 it was about 200 CYP per donum. (We are talking about dry, non-irrigable, rocky land -used for having a goat’s farm inside.) The value of my property in Lapithos in 1974 was estimated around 6,000 CYP per donum and now in it is traded at around 80,000 UKP per donum. Similar land in the south at the moment is traded at around 170,000 CYP per donum. This people have already sold my land in Lapithos to a developer last year for about 40,000 UKP per donum. Who will pay the difference between the value of their land in the south and the value of my land in Lapithos? And yet, “TRNC” and also you now, claim that this is an example of “exchanged land" trading?

Things are not as simple, nice, "legitimate" and "logical" as you may wish to present them!

[MicAtCyp]

same old story land land land land property property property is that all you can say change the record for gods sake, the only way you will get your land back or in your case compensation is if we find a solution so lobby your leaders to get a move on and do something to reach a solution.

Our pressure VP resulted in our leaders asking the UN to resume the talks.That's why Prendercast was sent on a tour here.What did your leaders do, did they ask the same thing? As far as I know the answer is NO. Our pressure resulted in our leadership considering your demands for direct trade and they made the best proposals according to the public opinion of the GCs for the Varoshia barbed area. What did your leaders do other than insisting on some promises, someone took, from someone in the EU who not even there anymore? Our pressure resulted in starting excavations for the missing persons, what did your side do other than ploughing the fields for one month at places where no one was burried?

So please instead of advising the GCs to do something it's about time you do what you preach. After all the GCs are shouting for 31 years now, you only started shouting a couple of years ago when you realised the RoC is becoming an EU member.... I beleive you are more rested than us and you should actually try double than us, not amost zero compared to us.

Of course we all know what your people currently try harder than anything: Selling the GC properties to foreigners....
And please don't tell me this is because there is no solution and because the GCs turned down the Anan Plan....

[MicAtCyp]

Considering that land a not a renewable asset, I mean those who sell do a one shot boost to their pockets and thats it : What will happen when there is no more land to sell? What will happen when the TCs themselves will need to build a new house? What you think will be the long term effects on TCs?

[Anglo]

Michael, most investors see the land they are buying for villas etc not as stolen but 'exchanged'. You may argue that the former Greek occupiers of the land had no say in this exchange but investors are told to differentiate between land that was allocated to TC refugees as compensation for what they lost in Paphos/Limasol/Larnaca etc as opposed to land that was 'gifted' to TCs/Turkish mainlanders.

Anglo,
You are making a major mistake here when you are saying that the investors are told to differentiate between land that was allocated to TC refuges as compensation, etc. This allegation is meaningless because:

1. There is no way to differentiate such land from any other type of land, including pre-1974 TC owned, due to the fact that the new “title deeds,” re-issued by “TRNC” some 12-13 years ago (early 90’s) are identical between them and there is no mention whether they were issued in exchange of other property in the south or pre-1974 TC owned, etc.
   
2. Even if someone attempts to investigate the issue more deeply -through the “land registries” of the “TRNC,” something very few people (foreign buyers) will know and /or think to do, the only thing they will find out is whether the land was pre-1974 TC owned or if it was allocated to them via the credit-point system invented by Denktash after 1974. This information does not clarify whether the points allocated to the person that got possession of the land in this way, has gotten the credit points because of land ownership (exchange) in the south or because of any other reasons such as credit for services in the war, as an incentive to migrate from Turkey into Cyprus (settler,) or as a gift by Denktash (there were many such cases,) etc.
   
   My uncle has 5 donums of land in Lapithos, next to our property. This land was given to a mainland Turk who participated in the 1974 invasion. (I found this information from some TCs from Akoursos village who used to occupy my father’s land next to him and they speak perfect Greek.) Recently he sold this land to a developer who is building 4 huge villas inside, for about 35,000 UKP per donum (quite less than the current market value in the area which is about 80,000 UKP,) and he used part of this money to double the size of my uncle’s house in which he resides. He could have as well escaped to Turkey after the sale. Is this a case of “exchanged” land? Who will pay my uncle?
   
3. There is absolutely no guarantee that the allocation of points based on the property left back in the south has been done on an accurate basis, i.e., value of property in the south to equate with value of property given in the north, etc.
   
   I happen to have personal knowledge of this fact, with the case of the TCs that were given my land in Lapithos. For 7 donums of dry-mountain land in Akoursos village in Pafos (some 15 kms away from the nearest town which is Peyia,) they were given 9 donums of land on the coast of Lapithos (Lapta.) The value of their Akoursos land today, based on the value of other GC properties around it, is about 2,500 CYP per donum. In 1974 it was about 200 CYP per donum. (We are talking about dry, non-irrigable, rocky land -used for having a goat’s farm inside.) The value of my property in Lapithos in 1974 was estimated around 6,000 CYP per donum and now in it is traded at around 80,000 UKP per donum. Similar land in the south at the moment is traded at around 170,000 CYP per donum. This people have already sold my land in Lapithos to a developer last year for about 40,000 UKP per donum. Who will pay the difference between the value of their land in the south and the value of my land in Lapithos? And yet, “TRNC” and you, claim that this is an example of “engaged” land trading?

Things are not as simple, nice, "legitimate" and "logical" as you may wish to present them!

The Annan Plan tolerates a discrepancy of upto 50% in assigned 1974 values before any compensation would ahve to be considered. If in individual cases some valuations are proven to be way out beyond this figure then it would be reasonable to expect the TRNC to pick up the tab as it was the TRNC which allocated 'exchange' lands.

[Kifeas]

The Annan Plan tolerates a discrepancy of upto 50% in assigned 1974 values before any compensation would ahve to be considered. If in individual cases some valuations are proven to be way out beyond this figure then it would be reasonable to expect the TRNC to pick up the tab as it was the TRNC which allocated 'exchange' lands.

1. I read the entire plan and particularly the property provisions several times, but I cannot figure out what exactly you are talking about. Can you please explain to me what exactly you are talking about? Can you quote the relevant text from the A-plan and also the section, chapter, etc in which such provision is mentioned?
2. Since the A-plan has not been approved and consequently it is null and void by it’s own definition; and since legally, politically and technically, everyone of its provisions is subject to re-negotiations and potential revisions, why do you or the TC community base their decisions and actions on its existing provisions?

PS: Why do you always make reference to documents without in addition to provide the relevant text in the form of quotation or link, and then someone has to ask you again in order to do so?

[Viewpoint]

MicAtCyp

Our pressure VP resulted in our leaders asking the UN to resume the talks.

What pressure??? your administration wont even reveal details of changes required let alone want a restart of talks.

Wasnt it while Erdogan visited Bush that Predegast was sent to Cyprus.

If one side says yes to unification and the other no then who should be explaining why? and requesting that we go back to the table? Our leaders have always stated they are ready to talk at anytime to no avail. Or do we try and explain why we said yes and ask for resumption of talks.

Prendegast said it all we are just to far apart to resume negotiations and that Cypriots should work to close the gap, fat chance.

The swap for Varosha/Maras was totally imbalanced and a non starter.

The missing persons issue is a sham and should be an embarasement to both sides, it should be resolves as soon as possible.

Your leaders are doing a great job in helping us move forward well done, of course as usual its our leaders that are the problem who are obstructing everything.

You are right again sales of villas are continuing.

[MicAtCyp]

What pressure???

Our politics and pressure groups work in a different way today than what in the past.We don't need to get out in the streets to pass what we want.

your administration wont even reveal details of changes required let alone want a restart of talks.

May I remind you that our administration is not called a pseudo but Cyprus Government. As for your comment you are right.We did not press our leadership to reveal you the finest details of what we want because that would kill our negotiating position.In other words your side would just take the points and start scrabbing without leaving us any alternative. But you are wrong in saying that we did not explain our positions.If it was so then Prendercast would not be able to do anything.

Wasnt it while Erdogan visited Bush that Predegast was sent to Cyprus.

No. It was much later.Erdogan visited Bush for the reasons I stated earlier i.e to push Kofi Anan to pass his dead document through the UN again.

If one side says yes to unification and the other no then who should be explaining why?

To unification????One side said yes to disguised partition and donation of stolen properties to them. Who wouldn’t say yes to that?

Our leaders have always stated they are ready to talk at anytime to no avail.

Can’t you guess the reason? Do you think the reason is just to create a good climate and drink some coffees?

The swap for Varosha/Maras was totally imbalanced and a non starter.

How was unbalanced? You want economic advance through trade.We want our properties back.You give us 1 quarted of what we want we give you 1 quarter of what you want too. Or are you saying the quarters are not equal because the one is gold and the other is silver. Well the gold was never yours anyway.Moreover according to the maps the Americans disigned from the good old partition days of Gallo Plaza Varoshia was never in.
Alright , alright I know you don't know these things and you think that the Turkish army juuust took what it took by accident....