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Fact or Fiction ? Turks AND Kurds founded Republic of Turkey

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Tim Drayton » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:35 pm

denizaksulu wrote:
GreekForumer wrote:Insan, this is fascinating! Why can't you answer simple, unambiguous questions ?

Which of the following 2 statements is closest to the truth ?

1. Ataturk persuaded the Kurds to fight for a secular state.
2. Ataturk persuaded the Kurds to fight for a Kurdish-Turkish brotherhood state.

If you are not happy with those 2 options then fill in the blank.

Ataturk persuaded the Kurds to fight for a <blank>



If I may butt in.

We all know that Mustafa Kemal did enlist the help of the Kurdish tribes during the 'War of Independence'. There was always friction between the Ottomans and its Kurdish subjects - as they were semi-nomads. It was know at the time that in times of war they were mostly unreliable. They would oft cross the border into Iran to avoid Taxes imposed per 'tent'.

Not much detail of the Kurdish - Turkish agreements are found in Turkish sources or are very hard to come by.

I am sure Insan is researching well, to give you his honest answer. I, rightly or wrongly, suspect you have a link somewhere up your sleeve. Insan might suspect that too. Give him time. We are all waiting.


Mustafa Kemal was an astute politician who was doing deals and 'selling' his struggle to various groups in terms that would appeal to them. Many Alevis, for example, believed that Alevism would be made the official religion of the new state, whereas pious Sunnis simply believed they were waging a holy war to defend the Caliphate. Both of these aspirations were frustrated, of course.
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Postby denizaksulu » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:48 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:
denizaksulu wrote:
GreekForumer wrote:Insan, this is fascinating! Why can't you answer simple, unambiguous questions ?

Which of the following 2 statements is closest to the truth ?

1. Ataturk persuaded the Kurds to fight for a secular state.
2. Ataturk persuaded the Kurds to fight for a Kurdish-Turkish brotherhood state.

If you are not happy with those 2 options then fill in the blank.

Ataturk persuaded the Kurds to fight for a <blank>



If I may butt in.

We all know that Mustafa Kemal did enlist the help of the Kurdish tribes during the 'War of Independence'. There was always friction between the Ottomans and its Kurdish subjects - as they were semi-nomads. It was know at the time that in times of war they were mostly unreliable. They would oft cross the border into Iran to avoid Taxes imposed per 'tent'.

Not much detail of the Kurdish - Turkish agreements are found in Turkish sources or are very hard to come by.

I am sure Insan is researching well, to give you his honest answer. I, rightly or wrongly, suspect you have a link somewhere up your sleeve. Insan might suspect that too. Give him time. We are all waiting.


Mustafa Kemal was an astute politician who was doing deals and 'selling' his struggle to various groups in terms that would appeal to them. Many Alevis, for example, believed that Alevism would be made the official religion of the new state, whereas pious Sunnis simply believed they were waging a holy war to defend the Caliphate. Both of these aspirations were frustrated, of course.


The problem is finding any written evidence of these agreements between various factions. We do know some sections of these Kurds and their leadership were a great concern for the Turkish Nationalists.

I am sure he had a few leaders executed, but I cant remember where I read these.

Anyway the questions asked of Insan are 'loaded' thats why I would be wary. I suspect the questioner may know the answer already.
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Postby insan » Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:04 pm

GreekForumer wrote:Insan, this is fascinating! Why can't you answer simple, unambiguous questions ?

Which of the following 2 statements is closest to the truth ?

1. Ataturk persuaded the Kurds to fight for a secular state.
2. Ataturk persuaded the Kurds to fight for a Kurdish-Turkish brotherhood state.

If you are not happy with those 2 options then fill in the blank.

Ataturk persuaded the Kurds to fight for a <blank>


:lol: Ataturk didn't persuade Kurds... Turkics and Kurdics had common interests that united them fight against the enemy...
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Postby GreekForumer » Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:38 am

denizaksulu wrote:If I may butt in.

We all know that Mustafa Kemal did enlist the help of the Kurdish tribes during the 'War of Independence'. There was always friction between the Ottomans and its Kurdish subjects - as they were semi-nomads. It was know at the time that in times of war they were mostly unreliable. They would oft cross the border into Iran to avoid Taxes imposed per 'tent'.

Not much detail of the Kurdish - Turkish agreements are found in Turkish sources or are very hard to come by.

I am sure Insan is researching well, to give you his honest answer. I, rightly or wrongly, suspect you have a link somewhere up your sleeve. Insan might suspect that too. Give him time. We are all waiting.


I don't have any link to a definitive answer, Deniz. I've always wondered what Ataturk offered the Kurds so that they would reject Sevres Kurdistan and join forces with him. I have asked this question here on CF and got a reply from Diri, the Kurd. A few months ago, I read something online written by a Kurd who talked about a promised "politically equal brotherhood" state or something along those lines. It twigged my interest again, so I searched within Google books with search terms like "equal rights", "autonomy", "brotherhood", "political equality", etc. There are more references than those 8 i put in my first post. And google books, by no means, has access to every book.

From my amateur readings in Google books, I am quite confident that Ataturk did indeed promise some sort of "politically equal brotherhood" state because
1. there is a consensus amongst the references
2. not only is there consensus, there is no competing thesis put forward, debated and/or dismissed. There appears to be no controversy whatsoever about this issue amongst the scholars/authors. This is a very bad sign for those who think the "brotherhood state" thesis is false.

Nevertheless, those scholars/authors could be wrong but I think I'll leave it to Insan to demonstrate this. The first thing he should do is find out what the primary sources are. Perhaps all those references rely on a single primary source. How reliable is that primary source ? There's a possible point of attack. Next, find a competing thesis from non-Turkish sources. Ask why does the proponent of this alternative thesis reject the popular "brotherhood state" thesis ? This is a very important part of the debate and cannot be avoided.
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Postby GreekForumer » Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:46 am

denizaksulu wrote:The problem is finding any written evidence of these agreements between various factions. We do know some sections of these Kurds and their leadership were a great concern for the Turkish Nationalists.

I am sure he had a few leaders executed, but I cant remember where I read these.

Anyway the questions asked of Insan are 'loaded' thats why I would be wary. I suspect the questioner may know the answer already.


In what way was it loaded Deniz ? I specifically asked which answer was the "closest" to the truth, not which one was "the truth". I also said if he was not happy with those 2 answers he could create his own. Astonishingly, he couldn't even give me his preferred answer. Instead, he wants to play "ring around the rosie" with my words, stating with the word "persuade". I'm sure it won't end there.


Insan said "Turks and Kurds fought together and founded Republic of Turkey"

Republic of Turkey is a secular state.

Therefore "Turks and Kurds fought together and founded a secular state"

Answer 1 : Ataturk persuaded the Kurds to fight for a secular state.

Why didn't Insan choose Answer 1. ?
Last edited by GreekForumer on Thu Dec 24, 2009 2:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby GreekForumer » Thu Dec 24, 2009 2:00 am

insan wrote:
GreekForumer wrote:Insan, this is fascinating! Why can't you answer simple, unambiguous questions ?

Which of the following 2 statements is closest to the truth ?

1. Ataturk persuaded the Kurds to fight for a secular state.
2. Ataturk persuaded the Kurds to fight for a Kurdish-Turkish brotherhood state.

If you are not happy with those 2 options then fill in the blank.

Ataturk persuaded the Kurds to fight for a <blank>


:lol: Ataturk didn't persuade Kurds... Turkics and Kurdics had common interests that united them fight against the enemy...


Insan, you said that Ataturk wanted a secular state. Is that what Ataturk told the Kurds they would be fighting for ? No, of course not. Because if he did, the Kurds would either stay and secure their Sevres Kurdistan or seek out other alliances with religious Turks and pursue a Kurdish-Turkish brotherhood state or whatever. If Ataturk said they would be fighting for a brotherhood state then he would have an alliance with the Kurds. Kurdish choices depended on what Ataturk said to them. To say Ataturk did not "persuade" or influence the Kurdish alliance decisions is simply not true.



In any case, you shouldn't really be speaking for the Kurds because you don't seem to put their best case forward.

Kurds can speak for themselves. Here's Diri from October 2007.

Dîrî wrote:
GreekForumer wrote:
GreekForumer wrote:At the end of WW1, the treaty of Sevres gives the Kurds a piece of land in the South East. But the Kurds choose to fight against the very same Powers that awarded the Kurds this land. What did Ataturk and the Nationalists offer the Kurds in return for alliance ? Surely something better than a "Sevres Kurdistan", not less, right ?


Diri, can you answer this question for me.


Absolutely...

In fact, it was funny to see the person you intended the question for dodged it...

The Kurds were promised something FAR better than the Sèvres treaty - by Atatürk and co...

As ethnic maps will show, the political divisions of the Treaty of Sèvres were not in line with the ethnic ones... And that's in part why Kurds didn't accept the treaty, since it was encroaching on Kurdish lands - and not recognizing our territorial demands... So the Northern Kurds joined the Turks, who promised justice.

We, of course, fell for the trick... And there you go: the Treaty of Lousanne (in which we lost everything promised to us) - was ratified...

Ismet Inonu - Atatürk's right hand - a Kurd who'd sold out, spoke on behalf of the Kurds, representing us... Without our consent and support naturally - putting our hands and necks in chains, bringing us to our knees, to serve as slaves of the Turks till this day...

Many Turkish officials have since made a reference to this, saying things in the lines of: "Only Turks are the masters of this country - all others are slaves..."

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... 243#216243
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Postby GreekForumer » Fri Jan 01, 2010 3:05 pm

This is a recent article from Hurriyet Daily News.

The fundamental design flaw of the Turkish Republic

Friday, December 18, 2009
Mustafa AKYOL

On May 1, 1920, Mustafa Kemal, who would soon be the founder of the Turkish Republic, delivered an important speech at the Parliament in Ankara.

“The people who have formed this supreme assembly are not just Turks,” he said. “They are also Circassians, Kurds or Laz. They are all different components of Islam. They all respect each other, and each other’s ethnic, social and geographic rights.”

That was the time of Turkey’s War of Liberation (1919-1922). As the leader of this national struggle to save the homeland from European invaders, Mustafa Kemal used rhetoric that would appeal to all “components of Islam” in Asia Minor. (The non-Muslim component, the Armenians, was tragically expelled in 1915.)

The Republic to end all peace

In fact, Kemal was personally not the greatest fan of Islam, and believed in Turkish nationalism rather than a pluralist nation of various identities. But it was not the right time to voice such views.


So, over the next two years, he continued to speak about the “brotherhood” of all Muslim peoples, and especially the Turks and the Kurds, the two largest groups in Anatolia. Most Kurds put their faith in this message and supported the War of Liberation.


Once the war was won, however, Kemal’s rhetoric rapidly changed. When he announced the formation of the Turkish Republic in October 1923, he was no longer speaking of the “components of Islam that respect each other” but only “the Turkish nation.” The Constitution he orchestrated the following year took a bolder step. “The people of Turkey,” it announced, “are all called Turks regardless of their creed and ethnicity.”

The same year, Kemal also abolished the Caliphate and banned all Islamic schools, both highly popular among the religiously conservative Kurds of southeastern Anatolia.

The response came in early 1925, when a Kurdish revolt led by an Islamic sheik broke out. In return, the Kemalist government not only brutally suppressed the revolt, but also established martial law in the entire country, closing down opposition parties and even nongovernmental organizations. This heavy-handed policy led to other Kurdish revolts, which were, again, suppressed brutally. In the one that broke out in Dersim in 1937, the city was bombed by war planes.

One of the bomber pilots was Sabiha Gökçen, the adopted daughter of Mustafa Kemal, whose name was recently given to the second airport in Istanbul. (The first one, of course, is named after her father, who took the surname Atatürk, “the father of all Turks,” in 1934.)

While suppressing the Kurdish revolts, Atatürk also initiated a policy of “Turkification.” Through education and propaganda, the Kurds were to be convinced that they were actually Turks who had regrettably forgotten their identity. “Our Diyarbakır is the home of the pure Oğuz Turk [of Central Asia],” Atatürk said in 1932. “We are all children of that home.”

“The land of the Turk is great, and it is only him that is great on Earth,” he added. “The Turk fills everywhere. And the face of the Turk enlightens every corner.”

This cult of Turkishness was the Kemalist solution to the Kurdish question. If the state venerated Turkishness enough, while banning all expressions of Kurdishness, or so the reasoning went, the “problem” would be solved.

From state to society

That was the fundamental design flaw of the Turkish Republic: The belief that the state has the right, and the power, to transform the society into whatever it wills.

The state simply said, “Let there be no Kurds.” And it hoped that everybody would see this official light, and see that it was good.

Personally, I object to this project on philosophical grounds. I believe that society, and the individuals that make up it, precede the state. Thus the state should be constructed according to the aspirations of the society – not the other way around.

But even those Turks who don’t have such philosophical objections to the state’s right to transform society are now at least accepting that it lacks the power to do so. Even some Kemalists now realize that the Kurds cannot be “educated” anymore to realize that they are actually “pure Oğuz Turks.”

So what should we do now?

The rational answer is to fix the fundamental design flaw of the Republic. To make it, in another words, a democratic state that respects the plurality of the society, rather than an authoritarian one that imposes an official identity and ideology.

This is what the liberal intellectuals who yearn for a “Second Republic” have been arguing all along. And the incumbent Justice and Development Party, or AKP, despite its all other mistakes and shortcomings, has taken the boldest steps toward this democratization since 2002.

However, we face two huge obstacles: First, many Turks are passionately devoted to preserving the design flaw, which has become a part of their national secular religion. They are resisting change by all means necessary.

Secondly, some Kurds have become so nationalist now that it might not be possible to win them over anymore with democratic reforms. Their resentment to the rest of Turkey has reached levels that are really hard to reconcile.

The design flaw of the Republic, in other words, has created a very flawed society as well.

That is why I am not terribly optimistic about the future of this matter.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php? ... 2009-12-18
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Postby CopperLine » Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:28 pm

Without doubt Kurds fought against Greece, Britain, Russia, France and Italy during what Turks call the war of independence, roughly speaking from 1918 through to 1923. It is equally true that Kurds fought against the establishment of a Turkish republic. It is not possible to treat the Kurds as one single and homogenous block with the same set of unchanging interests - just as one can't treat any 'national' group in that way. History is much dirtier and complex than the propagandists would like it to be.

Did Mustafa Kemal support the creation of a Kurdish entity ? Most definitely no. Did he make a deal with Kurdish leaders exchanging, for example, support in the war of independence for regional autonomy ? No. Did he recognise Kurds as political equals in the war of independence and therefore to be rewarded in some way after victory ? No, not at all. In fact Mustafa Kemal never referred to Kurds again - ever - following the declaration of the new republic. We also know that almost immediately on the establishment of the new republic he ordered a prohibition on the use of the Kurdish language, as well as Laz, Circassian, Armenian and others (but not Greek). I think that no-one was under any illusion as to the Kemalist project fashioned in the 'war of independence' : it was a Turkish nationalist project. It had no place in Anatolia for other national projects. If you have any doubt about this then how do you account for the vigour bordering on desperation with which Greeks, Armenians, Georgians, as well as many Kurds fought against Kemalist nationalism during the 1919-1923 period ? They knew - and they were proved right - that this was a life or death struggle for their respective national ambitions.

Of course there were many Kurds who fought and struggled for the the creation of a new republic who were of Kurdish origin or ethnicity. It is said, for example, that Ismet (Inonu), Mustafa Kemal's closest lieutenant and presidential successor, was of Kurdish origin. But it is a mistake to think that they, with a few exceptions, carried a mandate to either create a Kurdish state, Kurdish autonomous state within Turkey, or in any other way promote Kurdish interests (whatever they may have been). This latter, exceptional set of groups tended to ally themselves - often temporarily, as the wind blew - with outside powers in an effort to create something new out of the Anatolian ashes of the Ottoman empire.

What we do know is that Britain and France in particular made promises to Kurdish nationalists for the creation of some kind of 'national entity' which were never fulfilled. We also know that not only was Sevres never implemented but that it made no clear commitments to the creation of a Kurdish state. The new Soviet union stopped its support of new states in the old Ottoman empire with the creation and support of Armenia and Azerbaijan, both 'abandoned' to their fate by the USA and Britain and France.
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Postby GreekForumer » Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:01 am

CopperLine wrote:Without doubt Kurds fought against Greece, Britain, Russia, France and Italy during what Turks call the war of independence, roughly speaking from 1918 through to 1923. It is equally true that Kurds fought against the establishment of a Turkish republic. It is not possible to treat the Kurds as one single and homogenous block with the same set of unchanging interests - just as one can't treat any 'national' group in that way. History is much dirtier and complex than the propagandists would like it to be.


Who exactly are "the propagandists" who treated the Kurds as "one single and homogenous block " ? You are not clear.

You can't really be speaking about me, can you ?

This is what I wrote in the very first post of this thread.
GreekForumer wrote:There were different types of Kurds, they were a tribal people, lived over large areas with differences in language, society, etc. etc. and I am sure it would have been difficult to get the Kurdish leaders to agree on anything political. One thing I am quite sure about, however, is that members of these Kurdish groups would NEVER have given their lives to facilitate their own cultural extinction in a future state.


I wrote of tribes, leaders(plural, not singular), differences, groups, "difficult to agree". That's hardly treating the Kurds as "one single and homogenous block ". I spoke of the Kurds collectively with the the statement that the average Kurd would never give his life to support the destruction of Kurdishness. Don't you agree ?


Perhaps Insan is the propagandist you have in mind.
Insan wrote:Turks and Kurds fought together and founded Republic of Turkey.

No, Copperline. Despite this general statement, Insan knows that Kurds were not "one single and homogenous block ". He is quite aware of the existence of "Ruling elite of Kurdish tribes ". Maybe he should have used the phrase "most Kurds" or "Kurds as a whole" or something like that.



Perhaps you are claiming some of those scholars/authors in the first post are propagandists ? Be specific. Which ones are using sloppy language and which ones are deliberately misleading their readers with their propaganda ?


Of those scholars/authors, there are 2 that do not speak of the Kurds as "one single and homogenous block ".

Still, some Kurds did revolt against Kemal: Among those revolts, that of the Koc¸giri in 1920 was the most significant, as it forced Kemal to divert troops from the main theater of war to deal with what could potentially have led to a serious division within Turkish/Kurdish ranks.

Turkey's Kurdish question - Google Books Result - Page 9
by Henri J. Barkey, Graham E. Fuller - 1998 - Social Science - 239 pages



During the independence movement, before and during WW1, Kurds and Turks fought side by side. Ataturk promised autonomy to the Kurdish groups at that time....

The Middle East, abstracts and index? - Page 545
by Library Information and Research Service - History - 2003





Or are you accussing Mustafa Akyol of being a propagandist ?
So, over the next two years, he continued to speak about the “brotherhood” of all Muslim peoples, and especially the Turks and the Kurds, the two largest groups in Anatolia. Most Kurds put their faith in this message and supported the War of Liberation.




Once again, Copperline, Who EXACTLY are "the propagandists" who treated the Kurds as "one single and homogenous block " ? You are not clear.
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Postby GreekForumer » Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:31 am

CopperLine wrote:Did Mustafa Kemal support the creation of a Kurdish entity ? Most definitely no. Did he make a deal with Kurdish leaders exchanging, for example, support in the war of independence for regional autonomy ? No. Did he recognise Kurds as political equals in the war of independence and therefore to be rewarded in some way after victory ? No, not at all.


So what kind of political entity and arrangements did the majority of Kurds, of any flavour, think they were fighting to establish ? I don't believe for a moment that the overwhelming majority of Kurds, of any flavour, fought to establish a Kurd-free Secular state.

You must have been horrified when you read the opening post of this thread. How the hell did those scholars/authors get it so completely wrong ? The "flat earth" thesis about this subject dominates the intellectual world!! If it was me, I'd be furiously writing emails to all of them, showing them the error of their ways and making them aware of the abundant "spherical earth" literature. Sorry Copperline, but you are going to have to do something much more convincing than simply framing your own questions and answering them. Find a few references on Google books that support your "spherical earth" claims. And most importantly (and I can't stress this enough), find references that explain why the "flat earth" thesis is wrong.

You are not really a determined campaigner for Kurdish self-determination, are you Copperline ? Diri was right on the money about you ! He sniffed you out a mile away. :wink:

Copperline wrote:I've been involved in campaigns for the last twenty plus years for the right of Kurdish self-determination.


GreekForumer wrote:Copperline,
there is a bizarre period of Turkish history no-one has satisfactorily explained to me. Perhaps you can.

At the end of WW1, the treaty of Sevres gives the Kurds a piece of land in the South East. But the Kurds choose to fight against the very same Powers that awarded the Kurds this land. What did Ataturk and the Nationalists offer the Kurds in return for alliance ? Surely something better than a "Sevres Kurdistan", not less, right ?


Copperline wrote:GreekForumer
I've got to run .... but a quick initial response is that Sevres was never ratified, the terms of Sevres were rejected which thereby opened the way, eventually, for the T. of Lausanne. Lausanne is the defining moment for this region, not Sevres.

Get back to this later


GreekForumer wrote:Diri, can you answer this question for me.


Diri the Kurd wrote:Absolutely...

In fact, it was funny to see the person you intended the question for dodged it...


http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... 243#216243

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