Cyprus-Forum.com

[zan]

Why is everyone acting so civilized and formal in here?

AH! I was expecting you........Please come in and take a seat!!

[Get Real!]

Why is everyone acting so civilized and formal in here?

AH! I was expecting you........Please come in and take a seat!!

You wrote such a lovely screen-full of text Zanny, I don’t know if I can meet the new standards! Some people have certainly raised the bar in here…

[zan]

Why is everyone acting so civilized and formal in here?

AH! I was expecting you........Please come in and take a seat!!

You wrote such a lovely screen-full of text Zanny, I don’t know if I can meet the new standards! Some people have certainly raised the bar in here…

Think of tanks and let it rip baby!!!!!

[Viewpoint]

Dear Viewpoint,

Yes, the Huntley episode was an interesting case. However you have given us just one version of the story. Please be objective if you want to have a serious discussion on the merits of the solution that I have offered. Did you also know that Mr Huntley is in Canada illegally or that the Canadian government has challenged the ruling? As for white South African's that have emograted - more than 90 percent have chosen to stay. How many Turkish Cypriots have migrated in the last 30-odd years? I do not want a tit for tat discussion. Please make a a comment as to the viability of the model with your reasons and then we can have a far more fruitful debate. As for what I want for the TC's it is quite clear. I want the TC's to be part of a unitary state where their rights are enshrined in the Consitution and upheld by an independent judiciary. I want the TC's to be able to exercise these rights without prejudice in any part of Cyprus that they choose. I want the GC's to have these same rights.

Its not the surgeons knife we are afraid but the surgeon himself, democracy can be manipulated to a degree that we will need to fight for the smallest of rights and all hidden under the viel of of we are the majority. South Africa is a prime example of a country gone wild do you have any idea of the crime rate in that country you show us is an example we should aspire to? the surgeon there is obviously using the knife as he wishes this is what we do not want to be exposed to in Cyprus. TCs will not accept the unitary state you dream of because we have been there done it and it didnt work...what is acceptable to both sides is a BBF with politcal equality in our opinion of the 2 states, maybe the compromise could be that eqaulity is not on all issues but those not incorporated in the constitution and sensative to either state. It is obvious from the current talks that the interpretation of BBF with political equality is different to Gcs and TCs which shows that the chasm that exsists cannot be bridged both sides lack the flexibility, trust and compromise to commit themselves and therefore I can only talk for the TRNC no really believe there will be a solution and would rather just get on with their lives in the unrecognized TRNC as the alternative which the GCs envisage is totally unacceptable. We will never fall into the trap of becoming what Piratis calls us just another minority in a GC state run by GCs in Greek.

Your comments Cypriot Nick??

[Cypriot Nick]

Hi Zan,

Thanks for the comments,it was interesting reading. I have an intimate knowledge of the situation in South Africa especially Johanneburg and Pretoria and especially at the time of the negotiations. Unfortunately your colleague and your experience again shows a one sided picture. Your description of South Africa is not correct and I can say this from first hand experience.

I would question the story of the situation with the maids. I have volunteered in schools that were set up by the employers of these maids to give them literacy classes. Hardly a conspiracy to keep them illiterate. As for Mr Huntley, he is vilified by his fellow whites in South Africa. He has been confirmed to be a liar by his own people. That says enough about the man for me.

As for the status discrimination between the races,yes that still exists but it is being eroded. How? The younger generation are growing up together,they go to school together and there are many instances where they interact that has destroyed racial stereotypes. That can only be gained by integrating. The only discrimination that will still be in place in the future South Africa will be class discrimination. It is already taking place. In the 'white' areas that you described, did you notice how many blacks are living there? It would change your perspective if you knew.

However, by refering to the crime situation you have moved away from the rationale of my choice of SA as the model of solution. Crime in SA is not the result of the Constitutional settlement. Crime is the result of widespread poverty, an under-funded, under-trained and unprofessional police force.

With a constitutional settlement like the South African version do you expect crime in Cyprus to rise? I do not see that happening.South Africa has had three elections since the end of Apartheid. It has an independent media, an independent judiciary and a vocal opposition. It has the most progressive constitution in the world. If anything SA will not explode it will continue to grow from strength to strength. The prediction of an uneasy peace is incorrect in my opinion.

Thanks for replying Cypriot Nick.

Please excuse me for repeating my self but you are still working ion what SHOULD be and I from what is happening on the ground. The "Stepford Wifes" syndrome is not talked about but is common practice I assure you. I have had it confirmed by a SA vicar who is part of my sons rugby club. He helped to train his maid until he could not even bare to have one because his conscience no longer allowed it. You could argue that the cost got to him but he is a rich man. It does not fit his makeup either. He got sick of the injustice and moved here.

I can also tell you of a day we had in an open air swimming complex as part of a hotel. I can't remember the name. We were told of an idilic town to visit through a mountain pass and that the pool was one not to miss. We found it busy in the car park but went in even though I saw some funny looks. When we went in the whole place was full of coloureds. We didn't feel welcome at all. One man didn't even stop his child from setting about my friends son in the pool a bit later. We felt intimidated. We stayed anyway. Maybe out of pure Britishness, we did not want to offend. Some stayed the same and a few actually helped us out in finding toilets etc....I don't want to paint a entire dire picture. The tension is there I am afraid.

When we arrived home my friends swimming pool motor decided to catch fire earlier in the day, and subsequently burned out the badly fitted Fuse Board. He called an electrician (although I am one I obviously had no tools or parts) who was a coloured. He blamed the electrical work on the blacks.....Of the cuff remark!!!!

Through it all I wrote my account of a lovely day when I stopped to let a family of black SA cross the road and how their smiles and many thank you's made my day even better. It also made me wonder how long those smiles will last. I hope that the surge in the countries fortunes filters down to these people in Townships a lot faster.


Now when I think of TCs in a Cyprus with no political representation, my mind always goes back to that moment. We are being asked to leave our roots behind in Turkey and the TRNC ( the only places we still feel we belong to) and become muslims in a Greek culture.......If I wanted that I would have moved to Greece. There exists no "Cypriot" culture for me to feel a part of. If it can't be provided for me then how will I pass it on to my children. Teachers aren't enough. If you are asking for every "Cypriot" parent to sacrifice themselves each and every one, then I am afraid your utopian spirit is flying high:D

These are the possible problems of Cyprus.......With our history we will need more.

Good morning Zan,

Thanks for the comments. I know of the syndrome that you mentioned but I think you are focusing on only the negative aspects of South Africa. For every negative example that you give I can give you a positive one. I have lived and worked in South Africa for a number of years. I can tell you the situation is changing and will change even more over the next 20 years. If apartheid remained in place it would not have changed an iota.

In terms of the South African solution no community has lost its culture nor its identity. In fact communities rights have been strengthened as a result of the new dispensation. I am dissappointed that you think that a solution based on the SA model would diminish your rights. or identity. Perhaps you have missed the point that I am trying to make here and that is, times have changed and the context of the problem has changed. It is my opinion that no group is out to dominate another. Perhaps that was the case 50 years ago. It is no longer the case. I think that the majority of people on Cyprus want to get on with life,educate their children ,enjoy a high standard of living and enjoy the pleasures of life.

My opinion is and firmly remains that a solution based on the SA model will ensure this. No other model,in my opinion will do so.

It has been interesting chatting guys but it seems we will not convince each other. I am disappointed as I thought the contributors in here were more enlightened than our counterparts in government.

[Cypriot Nick]

Dear Viewpoint,

Yes, the Huntley episode was an interesting case. However you have given us just one version of the story. Please be objective if you want to have a serious discussion on the merits of the solution that I have offered. Did you also know that Mr Huntley is in Canada illegally or that the Canadian government has challenged the ruling? As for white South African's that have emograted - more than 90 percent have chosen to stay. How many Turkish Cypriots have migrated in the last 30-odd years? I do not want a tit for tat discussion. Please make a a comment as to the viability of the model with your reasons and then we can have a far more fruitful debate. As for what I want for the TC's it is quite clear. I want the TC's to be part of a unitary state where their rights are enshrined in the Consitution and upheld by an independent judiciary. I want the TC's to be able to exercise these rights without prejudice in any part of Cyprus that they choose. I want the GC's to have these same rights.

Its not the surgeons knife we are afraid but the surgeon himself, democracy can be manipulated to a degree that we will need to fight for the smallest of rights and all hidden under the viel of of we are the majority. South Africa is a prime example of a country gone wild do you have any idea of the crime rate in that country you show us is an example we should aspire to? the surgeon there is obviously using the knife as he wishes this is what we do not want to be exposed to in Cyprus. TCs will not accept the unitary state you dream of because we have been there done it and it didnt work...what is acceptable to both sides is a BBF with politcal equality in our opinion of the 2 states, maybe the compromise could be that eqaulity is not on all issues but those not incorporated in the constitution and sensative to either state. It is obvious from the current talks that the interpretation of BBF with political equality is different to Gcs and TCs which shows that the chasm that exsists cannot be bridged both sides lack the flexibility, trust and compromise to commit themselves and therefore I can only talk for the TRNC no really believe there will be a solution and would rather just get on with their lives in the unrecognized TRNC as the alternative which the GCs envisage is totally unacceptable. We will never fall into the trap of becoming what Piratis calls us just another minority in a GC state run by GCs in Greek.

Your comments Cypriot Nick??

Hello viewpoint,

Thanks for the comments. I read your reply with interest and well, what can I say - we will not convince each other it seems my friend. If you consider a political dispensation such as the one South Africa negotiated as 'wild' and see this as a solution that would make you a 'minority' in a 'Greek Cypriot state' then I respect your opinion and lets leave it at that.

[insan]

Hi Zan,

Thanks for the comments,it was interesting reading. I have an intimate knowledge of the situation in South Africa especially Johanneburg and Pretoria and especially at the time of the negotiations. Unfortunately your colleague and your experience again shows a one sided picture. Your description of South Africa is not correct and I can say this from first hand experience.

I would question the story of the situation with the maids. I have volunteered in schools that were set up by the employers of these maids to give them literacy classes. Hardly a conspiracy to keep them illiterate. As for Mr Huntley, he is vilified by his fellow whites in South Africa. He has been confirmed to be a liar by his own people. That says enough about the man for me.

As for the status discrimination between the races,yes that still exists but it is being eroded. How? The younger generation are growing up together,they go to school together and there are many instances where they interact that has destroyed racial stereotypes. That can only be gained by integrating. The only discrimination that will still be in place in the future South Africa will be class discrimination. It is already taking place. In the 'white' areas that you described, did you notice how many blacks are living there? It would change your perspective if you knew.

However, by refering to the crime situation you have moved away from the rationale of my choice of SA as the model of solution. Crime in SA is not the result of the Constitutional settlement. Crime is the result of widespread poverty, an under-funded, under-trained and unprofessional police force.

With a constitutional settlement like the South African version do you expect crime in Cyprus to rise? I do not see that happening.South Africa has had three elections since the end of Apartheid. It has an independent media, an independent judiciary and a vocal opposition. It has the most progressive constitution in the world. If anything SA will not explode it will continue to grow from strength to strength. The prediction of an uneasy peace is incorrect in my opinion.

Thanks for replying Cypriot Nick.

Please excuse me for repeating my self but you are still working ion what SHOULD be and I from what is happening on the ground. The "Stepford Wifes" syndrome is not talked about but is common practice I assure you. I have had it confirmed by a SA vicar who is part of my sons rugby club. He helped to train his maid until he could not even bare to have one because his conscience no longer allowed it. You could argue that the cost got to him but he is a rich man. It does not fit his makeup either. He got sick of the injustice and moved here.

I can also tell you of a day we had in an open air swimming complex as part of a hotel. I can't remember the name. We were told of an idilic town to visit through a mountain pass and that the pool was one not to miss. We found it busy in the car park but went in even though I saw some funny looks. When we went in the whole place was full of coloureds. We didn't feel welcome at all. One man didn't even stop his child from setting about my friends son in the pool a bit later. We felt intimidated. We stayed anyway. Maybe out of pure Britishness, we did not want to offend. Some stayed the same and a few actually helped us out in finding toilets etc....I don't want to paint a entire dire picture. The tension is there I am afraid.

When we arrived home my friends swimming pool motor decided to catch fire earlier in the day, and subsequently burned out the badly fitted Fuse Board. He called an electrician (although I am one I obviously had no tools or parts) who was a coloured. He blamed the electrical work on the blacks.....Of the cuff remark!!!!

Through it all I wrote my account of a lovely day when I stopped to let a family of black SA cross the road and how their smiles and many thank you's made my day even better. It also made me wonder how long those smiles will last. I hope that the surge in the countries fortunes filters down to these people in Townships a lot faster.


Now when I think of TCs in a Cyprus with no political representation, my mind always goes back to that moment. We are being asked to leave our roots behind in Turkey and the TRNC ( the only places we still feel we belong to) and become muslims in a Greek culture.......If I wanted that I would have moved to Greece. There exists no "Cypriot" culture for me to feel a part of. If it can't be provided for me then how will I pass it on to my children. Teachers aren't enough. If you are asking for every "Cypriot" parent to sacrifice themselves each and every one, then I am afraid your utopian spirit is flying high:D

These are the possible problems of Cyprus.......With our history we will need more.

Good morning Zan,

Thanks for the comments. I know of the syndrome that you mentioned but I think you are focusing on only the negative aspects of South Africa. For every negative example that you give I can give you a positive one. I have lived and worked in South Africa for a number of years. I can tell you the situation is changing and will change even more over the next 20 years. If apartheid remained in place it would not have changed an iota.

In terms of the South African solution no community has lost its culture nor its identity. In fact communities rights have been strengthened as a result of the new dispensation. I am dissappointed that you think that a solution based on the SA model would diminish your rights. or identity. Perhaps you have missed the point that I am trying to make here and that is, times have changed and the context of the problem has changed. It is my opinion that no group is out to dominate another. Perhaps that was the case 50 years ago. It is no longer the case. I think that the majority of people on Cyprus want to get on with life,educate their children ,enjoy a high standard of living and enjoy the pleasures of life.

My opinion is and firmly remains that a solution based on the SA model will ensure this. No other model,in my opinion will do so.

It has been interesting chatting guys but it seems we will not convince each other. I am disappointed as I thought the contributors in here were more enlightened than our counterparts in government.

Hi Cypriot Nick, we used to were "more enlightened"... where were u when we were... when we were discussing the merits of consociational democracy and being humiliated as backwards...

[Cypriot Nick]

Why is everyone acting so civilized and formal in here?

Hello Get Real,

It's leading by example.

Have a good day!

[Cypriot Nick]

Hi Zan,

Thanks for the comments,it was interesting reading. I have an intimate knowledge of the situation in South Africa especially Johanneburg and Pretoria and especially at the time of the negotiations. Unfortunately your colleague and your experience again shows a one sided picture. Your description of South Africa is not correct and I can say this from first hand experience.

I would question the story of the situation with the maids. I have volunteered in schools that were set up by the employers of these maids to give them literacy classes. Hardly a conspiracy to keep them illiterate. As for Mr Huntley, he is vilified by his fellow whites in South Africa. He has been confirmed to be a liar by his own people. That says enough about the man for me.

As for the status discrimination between the races,yes that still exists but it is being eroded. How? The younger generation are growing up together,they go to school together and there are many instances where they interact that has destroyed racial stereotypes. That can only be gained by integrating. The only discrimination that will still be in place in the future South Africa will be class discrimination. It is already taking place. In the 'white' areas that you described, did you notice how many blacks are living there? It would change your perspective if you knew.

However, by refering to the crime situation you have moved away from the rationale of my choice of SA as the model of solution. Crime in SA is not the result of the Constitutional settlement. Crime is the result of widespread poverty, an under-funded, under-trained and unprofessional police force.

With a constitutional settlement like the South African version do you expect crime in Cyprus to rise? I do not see that happening.South Africa has had three elections since the end of Apartheid. It has an independent media, an independent judiciary and a vocal opposition. It has the most progressive constitution in the world. If anything SA will not explode it will continue to grow from strength to strength. The prediction of an uneasy peace is incorrect in my opinion.

Thanks for replying Cypriot Nick.

Please excuse me for repeating my self but you are still working ion what SHOULD be and I from what is happening on the ground. The "Stepford Wifes" syndrome is not talked about but is common practice I assure you. I have had it confirmed by a SA vicar who is part of my sons rugby club. He helped to train his maid until he could not even bare to have one because his conscience no longer allowed it. You could argue that the cost got to him but he is a rich man. It does not fit his makeup either. He got sick of the injustice and moved here.

I can also tell you of a day we had in an open air swimming complex as part of a hotel. I can't remember the name. We were told of an idilic town to visit through a mountain pass and that the pool was one not to miss. We found it busy in the car park but went in even though I saw some funny looks. When we went in the whole place was full of coloureds. We didn't feel welcome at all. One man didn't even stop his child from setting about my friends son in the pool a bit later. We felt intimidated. We stayed anyway. Maybe out of pure Britishness, we did not want to offend. Some stayed the same and a few actually helped us out in finding toilets etc....I don't want to paint a entire dire picture. The tension is there I am afraid.

When we arrived home my friends swimming pool motor decided to catch fire earlier in the day, and subsequently burned out the badly fitted Fuse Board. He called an electrician (although I am one I obviously had no tools or parts) who was a coloured. He blamed the electrical work on the blacks.....Of the cuff remark!!!!

Through it all I wrote my account of a lovely day when I stopped to let a family of black SA cross the road and how their smiles and many thank you's made my day even better. It also made me wonder how long those smiles will last. I hope that the surge in the countries fortunes filters down to these people in Townships a lot faster.


Now when I think of TCs in a Cyprus with no political representation, my mind always goes back to that moment. We are being asked to leave our roots behind in Turkey and the TRNC ( the only places we still feel we belong to) and become muslims in a Greek culture.......If I wanted that I would have moved to Greece. There exists no "Cypriot" culture for me to feel a part of. If it can't be provided for me then how will I pass it on to my children. Teachers aren't enough. If you are asking for every "Cypriot" parent to sacrifice themselves each and every one, then I am afraid your utopian spirit is flying high:D

These are the possible problems of Cyprus.......With our history we will need more.

Good morning Zan,

Thanks for the comments. I know of the syndrome that you mentioned but I think you are focusing on only the negative aspects of South Africa. For every negative example that you give I can give you a positive one. I have lived and worked in South Africa for a number of years. I can tell you the situation is changing and will change even more over the next 20 years. If apartheid remained in place it would not have changed an iota.

In terms of the South African solution no community has lost its culture nor its identity. In fact communities rights have been strengthened as a result of the new dispensation. I am dissappointed that you think that a solution based on the SA model would diminish your rights. or identity. Perhaps you have missed the point that I am trying to make here and that is, times have changed and the context of the problem has changed. It is my opinion that no group is out to dominate another. Perhaps that was the case 50 years ago. It is no longer the case. I think that the majority of people on Cyprus want to get on with life,educate their children ,enjoy a high standard of living and enjoy the pleasures of life.

My opinion is and firmly remains that a solution based on the SA model will ensure this. No other model,in my opinion will do so.

It has been interesting chatting guys but it seems we will not convince each other. I am disappointed as I thought the contributors in here were more enlightened than our counterparts in government.

Hi Cypriot Nick, we used to were "more enlightened"... where were u when we were... when we were discussing the merits of consociational democracy and being humiliated as backwards...

Hi Zan,

Thats good. You should have maintained your enlightened attitude in the face of negativity - you would have prevailed in the end. If I may ask, how old are you Zan?

[insan]

Hi Zan,

Thanks for the comments,it was interesting reading. I have an intimate knowledge of the situation in South Africa especially Johanneburg and Pretoria and especially at the time of the negotiations. Unfortunately your colleague and your experience again shows a one sided picture. Your description of South Africa is not correct and I can say this from first hand experience.

I would question the story of the situation with the maids. I have volunteered in schools that were set up by the employers of these maids to give them literacy classes. Hardly a conspiracy to keep them illiterate. As for Mr Huntley, he is vilified by his fellow whites in South Africa. He has been confirmed to be a liar by his own people. That says enough about the man for me.

As for the status discrimination between the races,yes that still exists but it is being eroded. How? The younger generation are growing up together,they go to school together and there are many instances where they interact that has destroyed racial stereotypes. That can only be gained by integrating. The only discrimination that will still be in place in the future South Africa will be class discrimination. It is already taking place. In the 'white' areas that you described, did you notice how many blacks are living there? It would change your perspective if you knew.

However, by refering to the crime situation you have moved away from the rationale of my choice of SA as the model of solution. Crime in SA is not the result of the Constitutional settlement. Crime is the result of widespread poverty, an under-funded, under-trained and unprofessional police force.

With a constitutional settlement like the South African version do you expect crime in Cyprus to rise? I do not see that happening.South Africa has had three elections since the end of Apartheid. It has an independent media, an independent judiciary and a vocal opposition. It has the most progressive constitution in the world. If anything SA will not explode it will continue to grow from strength to strength. The prediction of an uneasy peace is incorrect in my opinion.

Thanks for replying Cypriot Nick.

Please excuse me for repeating my self but you are still working ion what SHOULD be and I from what is happening on the ground. The "Stepford Wifes" syndrome is not talked about but is common practice I assure you. I have had it confirmed by a SA vicar who is part of my sons rugby club. He helped to train his maid until he could not even bare to have one because his conscience no longer allowed it. You could argue that the cost got to him but he is a rich man. It does not fit his makeup either. He got sick of the injustice and moved here.

I can also tell you of a day we had in an open air swimming complex as part of a hotel. I can't remember the name. We were told of an idilic town to visit through a mountain pass and that the pool was one not to miss. We found it busy in the car park but went in even though I saw some funny looks. When we went in the whole place was full of coloureds. We didn't feel welcome at all. One man didn't even stop his child from setting about my friends son in the pool a bit later. We felt intimidated. We stayed anyway. Maybe out of pure Britishness, we did not want to offend. Some stayed the same and a few actually helped us out in finding toilets etc....I don't want to paint a entire dire picture. The tension is there I am afraid.

When we arrived home my friends swimming pool motor decided to catch fire earlier in the day, and subsequently burned out the badly fitted Fuse Board. He called an electrician (although I am one I obviously had no tools or parts) who was a coloured. He blamed the electrical work on the blacks.....Of the cuff remark!!!!

Through it all I wrote my account of a lovely day when I stopped to let a family of black SA cross the road and how their smiles and many thank you's made my day even better. It also made me wonder how long those smiles will last. I hope that the surge in the countries fortunes filters down to these people in Townships a lot faster.


Now when I think of TCs in a Cyprus with no political representation, my mind always goes back to that moment. We are being asked to leave our roots behind in Turkey and the TRNC ( the only places we still feel we belong to) and become muslims in a Greek culture.......If I wanted that I would have moved to Greece. There exists no "Cypriot" culture for me to feel a part of. If it can't be provided for me then how will I pass it on to my children. Teachers aren't enough. If you are asking for every "Cypriot" parent to sacrifice themselves each and every one, then I am afraid your utopian spirit is flying high:D

These are the possible problems of Cyprus.......With our history we will need more.

Good morning Zan,

Thanks for the comments. I know of the syndrome that you mentioned but I think you are focusing on only the negative aspects of South Africa. For every negative example that you give I can give you a positive one. I have lived and worked in South Africa for a number of years. I can tell you the situation is changing and will change even more over the next 20 years. If apartheid remained in place it would not have changed an iota.

In terms of the South African solution no community has lost its culture nor its identity. In fact communities rights have been strengthened as a result of the new dispensation. I am dissappointed that you think that a solution based on the SA model would diminish your rights. or identity. Perhaps you have missed the point that I am trying to make here and that is, times have changed and the context of the problem has changed. It is my opinion that no group is out to dominate another. Perhaps that was the case 50 years ago. It is no longer the case. I think that the majority of people on Cyprus want to get on with life,educate their children ,enjoy a high standard of living and enjoy the pleasures of life.

My opinion is and firmly remains that a solution based on the SA model will ensure this. No other model,in my opinion will do so.

It has been interesting chatting guys but it seems we will not convince each other. I am disappointed as I thought the contributors in here were more enlightened than our counterparts in government.

Hi Cypriot Nick, we used to were "more enlightened"... where were u when we were... when we were discussing the merits of consociational democracy and being humiliated as backwards...

Hi Zan,

Thats good. You should have maintained your enlightened attitude in the face of negativity - you would have prevailed in the end. If I may ask, how old are you Zan?

Hi, Cypriot Nick; I'm insan and 40. Our attitude, realistically is in correlation with the updated state of the talks of leaders of 2 communities; currently. How old r u?