Cyprus-Forum.com

[Tim Drayton]

"The failure of the previous paradigm to produce a settlement in spite of so much effort will be used to justify a new approach. I think this may be more along the lines of partition, which makes me sad."

Interesting comment Tim. But how will the new approach solve the properties issue when the individuals concerned will still have rights over their properties in the north and south? If there is no legalisation by a plebiscite then the properties issue remains open, no matter how many changes of direction the UN or anyone else adopts.

I repeat a point that I have made before. I can gradually see the property question becoming decoupled from the political question in Cyprus. This will only complicate matters even more.

[zan]

Dear Zan,

Please take the time to read up on South Africa. It is a shining example of the road that Cyprus should follow. The minority were magnanimous enough to accept the reality of their situation and the majority were responisble enough to accept their position. That is why the country has a Bill of rights in the constitution. It did not need any of the surrounding states to act as a guarantor. The country did not decend into anarchy or civil war. Believe me, this model for a solution is exactly what Cyprus needs. It has nothing to do about 'capitulation' or 'points scoring'. You must break away from that mindset. Think outside of the box if you are really interested in peace and prosperity. Do not get caught up in the same old paradigm that our politicians hae been using for the last 50 years.

The situation of the majority that you describe is very interesting but rather misquoted I am afraid. Poverty in South Africa is a phenomenon that will not disappear overnight and it is not caused by the new dispensation. As for the £60 I am not sure where you got this amount from.

Jerry - thank you for the welcome. I hope to make a positive contribution.

Tim - I share your sentiments and this is why I think that the people of Cyprus deserve a better deal. They need new politicians who have the guts to make hard decisions if Cyprus is to settle this problem.

I worked with a black South African colleague in Qatar about 5 years ago. This guy was over the moon that Apartheid is over - even if poverty continues and he has had to go abroad to find work. Some of the tales that he told me about life as a Zulu under Apartheid were really hair curling. Poverty is one thing - public whippings for failing to show the required deference to a white is quite another.

Totally agree...The two are separate issues...Cyprus Nick is arguing along the lines of the constitution and I am telling it as it is on the ground....The story that was posted about the white SA and Canada is so true. The white areas are the ones with an armed guard at every street corner working from a small shed. Every wall has barbed wire or spikes on a high wall. Every time the garage door opens, you don't know what is waiting outside. The one time we left the children at home with a baby sitter my friends wife was jittery all night. Imagine our horror as we pulled into his street, after our night out, to find a police car in all its flashing glory right outside his house.....Apparently three black guys followed his neighbour home and stole his and his friends mobile phone at gun point. The police were alerted by our baby sitter.....A one off???? The "security sheds" on every corner says not. This was in Cape town.......We were advised not to go anywhere near Joburg!!!!

The whites look down on the blacks and the coloureds and the coloureds look down on the blacks....There is an uneasy feeling in the air and far too soon tocal this "Form of democracy" a success.....I read that the £60 pounds needed to upgrade to a compressed cardboard house from the townships is near impossible for these poorly paid people to achieve and that the system that is put into place so that the maids can get proper training as housekeepers is abused by the whites. This is the sort of stuff that you only hear about if you involve yourself in a household and will not read about in the press. Not necessarily the press' fault but a condition that is feeding its self in order not to stir up any trouble. The whites do everything they can to dissuade their maids from going to class to learn further domestic science because that will mean that they have to pay them more as they are better qualified. It has become the plaything of the SA white housewife to control this one aspect of their outgoings though the amounts described is a pittance. The hope on the black maids face as she showed me all the leaflets on the matter was fantastic only to be marred by the look of despair as she implored me to persuade her employer to let her do the course. I actually hated my friends wife for a short while after she gave me the rundown on how the housewives get together to discuss ways of stopping the education and the subsequent raise in salary. Couple that with mile after mile of slums with their own drugs and Aids problems and I hope you see where I am coming from.

I hope it DOESN'T happen but there is a uneasy peace in SA and it could all just blow up any second now. Do you remember when the townships where on telly every day almost??? Not any more.....The vast majority of people around the world think that all the black problems have gone away....They simply are not reported as much any more..Their plight is lost in the happy face of Nelson Mandela being shown and the miracle of their new democracy....The problems are no longer shown to the world in case it arouses bad feelings again and the faceless blacks are paying the price.....But at least they have the right to ride on a bus they can't afford to!!!

[insan]

Hi Insan,

You have rightly pointed out that the impediments to the Cyprus problem is that it is related to the competition between Greece and Turkey,NATO and the strategic importance of the location. This is precisely why a new paradigm should be used to solve the situation. A paradigm that is not linked to these elements. Thus the need for new negotiators, with a new mindset and if required, following a process of consociational democracy. I think that the furture of Cyprus, especially for the youth, is too important to be left in the hands of only the older statesmen who have not changed their manner of thinking for forty years.

Hi Cypriot Nick

Only the far left political groups and their youth have a different mindset regarding the solution of the Cyprus problem and it's utopian. Moreover, they don't represent a significant portion of the TC and GC people. Those political groups that r against guarantorships, also against being a member of imperialist EU.

What u refer as Cypriot youth r mostly raised and educated to inherit to fight for existing national cause and achieve the goal.

Do u have some Cypriot names in ur mind that could become new Cypriot negotiators with a new mindset and able to lead Cypriots to a just solution?

[Cypriot Nick]

Hi Zan,

Thanks for the comments,it was interesting reading. I have an intimate knowledge of the situation in South Africa especially Johanneburg and Pretoria and especially at the time of the negotiations. Unfortunately your colleague and your experience again shows a one sided picture. Your description of South Africa is not correct and I can say this from first hand experience.

I would question the story of the situation with the maids. I have volunteered in schools that were set up by the employers of these maids to give them literacy classes. Hardly a conspiracy to keep them illiterate. As for Mr Huntley, he is vilified by his fellow whites in South Africa. He has been confirmed to be a liar by his own people. That says enough about the man for me.

As for the status discrimination between the races,yes that still exists but it is being eroded. How? The younger generation are growing up together,they go to school together and there are many instances where they interact that has destroyed racial stereotypes. That can only be gained by integrating. The only discrimination that will still be in place in the future South Africa will be class discrimination. It is already taking place. In the 'white' areas that you described, did you notice how many blacks are living there? It would change your perspective if you knew.

However, by refering to the crime situation you have moved away from the rationale of my choice of SA as the model of solution. Crime in SA is not the result of the Constitutional settlement. Crime is the result of widespread poverty, an under-funded, under-trained and unprofessional police force.

With a constitutional settlement like the South African version do you expect crime in Cyprus to rise? I do not see that happening.South Africa has had three elections since the end of Apartheid. It has an independent media, an independent judiciary and a vocal opposition. It has the most progressive constitution in the world. If anything SA will not explode it will continue to grow from strength to strength. The prediction of an uneasy peace is incorrect in my opinion.

[Cypriot Nick]

Hello Insan,

Thanks for the comment. I agree that if the youth are continually raised with some form of nationalism then we will never find a solution. That is why the youth need to have different mindset to that of the older generation.

I am surprised that you say left-wing parties in Cyprus don't represent a significant portion of the Cypriot people. It is my undestanding that the communist party in the south is largest party along with a communist president. I am not sure of the left -wings standing in the north. Surely from that we can ascertain that most people will go along with a left-wing solution. As for the EU being considered imperialist, I am afraid that such utterings are misguided and that is my one criticism of the left.

You say their ideas are utopian. Why?

[insan]

Hello Insan,

Thanks for the comment. I agree that if the youth are continually raised with some form of nationalism then we will never find a solution. That is why the youth need to have different mindset to that of the older generation.

I am surprised that you say left-wing parties in Cyprus don't represent a significant portion of the Cypriot people. It is my undestanding that the communist party in the south is largest party along with a communist president. I am not sure of the left -wings standing in the north. Surely from that we can ascertain that most people will go along with a left-wing solution. As for the EU being considered imperialist, I am afraid that such utterings are misguided and that is my one criticism of the left.

You say their ideas are utopian. Why?

Hello Cypriot Nick,

Many times Akel has proven to be a so-called communist political party. There r significant number of GCs that agree with me. Only the executives of AKEL have been real communists but not the party grassroots. AKEL is rather can be considered as a labour party.

I'm a liberal leftist and I too consider EU as an imperialist institution. EU was founded by imperialist Americans with Marshall and Truman doctrines. EU is the first step of globalization and the essential of globalization, imo; is to unite the world under one world government in order to leech off of rich natural resources and man power of especially Asia, in favour of some groups of ruling classes of the world.

[Cypriot Nick]

Hi Insan,

I too am a liberal but I have to disagree with you regarding the EU. In my opinion the EU is the sole reason why Europe has been at peace for the last 50 years. It is also the reason why much of Europe has prospered. However, I can respect your opinion even though I fundamentally disagree. As for the exploitation of Asia I can only say that the Asian communist parties are doing a good job of it themselves and I don't think that they need a lesson from Europe on how to do it.

One point though if I may, it is my understanding that you are very much against globalisation? Correct? However, the quote under your message of a united turkic confederation, is that not a form of globalisation and imperialism too?

Yes,my view of Akel is somewhat similar to yours. But the challenge is how do you change the hearts and minds of those grassroots supporters? As a liberal leftist surely you must have some strategies. Also,what about the left wing groupings in the north? Are they in the same situation?

[insan]

Hi Insan,

I too am a liberal but I have to disagree with you regarding the EU. In my opinion the EU is the sole reason why Europe has been at peace for the last 50 years. It is also the reason why much of Europe has prospered. However, I can respect your opinion even though I fundamentally disagree. As for the exploitation of Asia I can only say that the Asian communist parties are doing a good job of it themselves and I don't think that they need a lesson from Europe on how to do it.

One point though if I may, it is my understanding that you are very much against globalisation? Correct? However, the quote under your message of a united turkic confederation, is that not a form of globalisation and imperialism too?

Yes,my view of Akel is somewhat similar to yours. But the challenge is how do you change the hearts and minds of those grassroots supporters? As a liberal leftist surely you must have some strategies. Also,what about the left wing groupings in the north? Are they in the same situation?

I agree with u that EU provided Europeans peace, prosperity and solidarity in many fields. I'm not against European Union as long as it's sole aim is to provide multifaceted solidarity and economic cooperation among it's members. I'm against the hidden or known policies of EU towards exploitation of natural resources of Asia for the interests of ruling classes of Europe and US.

I'm not against globalization as long as the globalization policies r not based on exploitation of world regions rich with natural resources and slavery of working classes.

As for union of Turkic states under a confederal structure; it has already been achieved by 4 Turkic states and I wish it can progress into achieving an Asian Union based on multifaceted solidarity and economic cooperation of primarily Asian States and secondarily with other world unions and organizations.

I think we have missed the train to change the hearts and minds of our people in the last 49 years. It seems to0 late, there's an inevitable final waiting for us in a very near future and it's partition of Cyprus. Hope we can elect capable politicians who will be able to build good, strong and multifaceted relations, cooperation between the 2 states of Cyprus and their people.

[zan]

Hi Zan,

Thanks for the comments,it was interesting reading. I have an intimate knowledge of the situation in South Africa especially Johanneburg and Pretoria and especially at the time of the negotiations. Unfortunately your colleague and your experience again shows a one sided picture. Your description of South Africa is not correct and I can say this from first hand experience.

I would question the story of the situation with the maids. I have volunteered in schools that were set up by the employers of these maids to give them literacy classes. Hardly a conspiracy to keep them illiterate. As for Mr Huntley, he is vilified by his fellow whites in South Africa. He has been confirmed to be a liar by his own people. That says enough about the man for me.

As for the status discrimination between the races,yes that still exists but it is being eroded. How? The younger generation are growing up together,they go to school together and there are many instances where they interact that has destroyed racial stereotypes. That can only be gained by integrating. The only discrimination that will still be in place in the future South Africa will be class discrimination. It is already taking place. In the 'white' areas that you described, did you notice how many blacks are living there? It would change your perspective if you knew.

However, by refering to the crime situation you have moved away from the rationale of my choice of SA as the model of solution. Crime in SA is not the result of the Constitutional settlement. Crime is the result of widespread poverty, an under-funded, under-trained and unprofessional police force.

With a constitutional settlement like the South African version do you expect crime in Cyprus to rise? I do not see that happening.South Africa has had three elections since the end of Apartheid. It has an independent media, an independent judiciary and a vocal opposition. It has the most progressive constitution in the world. If anything SA will not explode it will continue to grow from strength to strength. The prediction of an uneasy peace is incorrect in my opinion.

Thanks for replying Cypriot Nick.

Please excuse me for repeating my self but you are still working ion what SHOULD be and I from what is happening on the ground. The "Stepford Wifes" syndrome is not talked about but is common practice I assure you. I have had it confirmed by a SA vicar who is part of my sons rugby club. He helped to train his maid until he could not even bare to have one because his conscience no longer allowed it. You could argue that the cost got to him but he is a rich man. It does not fit his makeup either. He got sick of the injustice and moved here.

I can also tell you of a day we had in an open air swimming complex as part of a hotel. I can't remember the name. We were told of an idilic town to visit through a mountain pass and that the pool was one not to miss. We found it busy in the car park but went in even though I saw some funny looks. When we went in the whole place was full of coloureds. We didn't feel welcome at all. One man didn't even stop his child from setting about my friends son in the pool a bit later. We felt intimidated. We stayed anyway. Maybe out of pure Britishness, we did not want to offend. Some stayed the same and a few actually helped us out in finding toilets etc....I don't want to paint a entire dire picture. The tension is there I am afraid.

When we arrived home my friends swimming pool motor decided to catch fire earlier in the day, and subsequently burned out the badly fitted Fuse Board. He called an electrician (although I am one I obviously had no tools or parts) who was a coloured. He blamed the electrical work on the blacks.....Of the cuff remark!!!!

Through it all I wrote my account of a lovely day when I stopped to let a family of black SA cross the road and how their smiles and many thank you's made my day even better. It also made me wonder how long those smiles will last. I hope that the surge in the countries fortunes filters down to these people in Townships a lot faster.


Now when I think of TCs in a Cyprus with no political representation, my mind always goes back to that moment. We are being asked to leave our roots behind in Turkey and the TRNC ( the only places we still feel we belong to) and become muslims in a Greek culture.......If I wanted that I would have moved to Greece. There exists no "Cypriot" culture for me to feel a part of. If it can't be provided for me then how will I pass it on to my children. Teachers aren't enough. If you are asking for every "Cypriot" parent to sacrifice themselves each and every one, then I am afraid your utopian spirit is flying high:D

These are the possible problems of Cyprus.......With our history we will need more.

[Get Real!]

Why is everyone acting so civilized and formal in here?