Cyprus-Forum.com

[YFred]

Dear Viewpoint,

Yes, the Huntley episode was an interesting case. However you have given us just one version of the story. Please be objective if you want to have a serious discussion on the merits of the solution that I have offered. Did you also know that Mr Huntley is in Canada illegally or that the Canadian government has challenged the ruling? As for white South African's that have emograted - more than 90 percent have chosen to stay. How many Turkish Cypriots have migrated in the last 30-odd years? I do not want a tit for tat discussion. Please make a a comment as to the viability of the model with your reasons and then we can have a far more fruitful debate. As for what I want for the TC's it is quite clear. I want the TC's to be part of a unitary state where their rights are enshrined in the Consitution and upheld by an independent judiciary. I want the TC's to be able to exercise these rights without prejudice in any part of Cyprus that they choose. I want the GC's to have these same rights.

Nick, please change the tune, we have been hearing this for 45 years and have not believed it so what makes you think we will now. It's over mate, either it’s what is being discussed with derogations so GCs will not be able to dominate the TCs economically, politically and militarily or it's to states. There is no alternative, the later they leave it, the nearer it gets to two states.

[Cypriot Nick]

Hello Insan,

Consociationalism, as is defined in the link that you have given, refers to the period of CODESA 1 and 2 in South Africa. this was the time of negotiations pre the 1994 elections where the Constitution and political settlements were discussed. This is very similar to the negotiations taking place in Cyprus regarding the unitary state. The outcomes of these negotiations were a Constitution that is viewed as being the most progressive in the world. If we had a Cypriot versions of Mandela and de Klerk the Cyprus problem would have been history. Unfortunately in Cyprus we have negotiators and leaders that are not of the same stature or sincerity.

I sincerely believe that this is the way forward for the people of Cyprus. I do not think that any other solution will provide a lasting and prosperous settlement.


Thanks for the welcome.

[Cypriot Nick]

Hello Yfred,

I do not think that the solution currently being negotiated will work. Also, if the majority of TC's feel the same way as you that should be respected. I have no problem with partition. Partition then should be done properly and not a half-hearted attempt. My opinion is that both communities will be poorer for it but it will nonetheless be a solution to the situation.

[insan]

Hello Insan,

Consociationalism, as is defined in the link that you have given, refers to the period of CODESA 1 and 2 in South Africa. this was the time of negotiations pre the 1994 elections where the Constitution and political settlements were discussed. This is very similar to the negotiations taking place in Cyprus regarding the unitary state. The outcomes of these negotiations were a Constitution that is viewed as being the most progressive in the world. If we had a Cypriot versions of Mandela and de Klerk the Cyprus problem would have been history. Unfortunately in Cyprus we have negotiators and leaders that are not of the same stature or sincerity.

I sincerely believe that this is the way forward for the people of Cyprus. I do not think that any other solution will provide a lasting and prosperous settlement.


Thanks for the welcome.

R the current political structure and constitution of SA based on a form of consociational democracy?

The leaders of 2 communities represent their people and mostly they try to enhance the basic principles of the solution they inherited from their predecessors.

On the other hand solution of the CP also has always highly been related with the competition of Greece and Turkey, in NATO; thus in our geo-politically and geo-startegically important region.

There r also huge obstacles arise from our historical background and how it was presented to generations of people through many decades in order to feed hatred, prejudices and animosity. Why? Prepare them for a victory against their enemy...

It doesn't seem to me as easy as the situation in South Africa.

[Cypriot Nick]

Hi Insan,

You have rightly pointed out that the impediments to the Cyprus problem is that it is related to the competition between Greece and Turkey,NATO and the strategic importance of the location. This is precisely why a new paradigm should be used to solve the situation. A paradigm that is not linked to these elements. Thus the need for new negotiators, with a new mindset and if required, following a process of consociational democracy. I think that the furture of Cyprus, especially for the youth, is too important to be left in the hands of only the older statesmen who have not changed their manner of thinking for forty years.

[Viewpoint]

Dear Viewpoint,

Yes, the Huntley episode was an interesting case. However you have given us just one version of the story. Please be objective if you want to have a serious discussion on the merits of the solution that I have offered. Did you also know that Mr Huntley is in Canada illegally or that the Canadian government has challenged the ruling? As for white South African's that have emograted - more than 90 percent have chosen to stay. How many Turkish Cypriots have migrated in the last 30-odd years? I do not want a tit for tat discussion. Please make a a comment as to the viability of the model with your reasons and then we can have a far more fruitful debate. As for what I want for the TC's it is quite clear. I want the TC's to be part of a unitary state where their rights are enshrined in the Consitution and upheld by an independent judiciary. I want the TC's to be able to exercise these rights without prejudice in any part of Cyprus that they choose. I want the GC's to have these same rights.

Its not the surgeons knife we are afraid but the surgeon himself, democracy can be manipulated to a degree that we will need to fight for the smallest of rights and all hidden under the viel of of we are the majority. South Africa is a prime example of a country gone wild do you have any idea of the crime rate in that country you show us is an example we should aspire to? the surgeon there is obviously using the knife as he wishes this is what we do not want to be exposed to in Cyprus. TCs will not accept the unitary state you dream of because we have been there done it and it didnt work...what is acceptable to both sides is a BBF with politcal equality in our opinion of the 2 states, maybe the compromise could be that eqaulity is not on all issues but those not incorporated in the constitution and sensative to either state. It is obvious from the current talks that the interpretation of BBF with political equality is different to Gcs and TCs which shows that the chasm that exsists cannot be bridged both sides lack the flexibility, trust and compromise to commit themselves and therefore I can only talk for the TRNC no really believe there will be a solution and would rather just get on with their lives in the unrecognized TRNC as the alternative which the GCs envisage is totally unacceptable. We will never fall into the trap of becoming what Piratis calls us just another minority in a GC state run by GCs in Greek.

[Viewpoint]

Hello Yfred,

I do not think that the solution currently being negotiated will work. Also, if the majority of TC's feel the same way as you that should be respected. I have no problem with partition. Partition then should be done properly and not a half-hearted attempt. My opinion is that both communities will be poorer for it but it will nonetheless be a solution to the situation.

Well said the chasm is just to wide to brigde and a forced solution will only bring more conflict...the only solution we deserve is partition as neither side has the guts to show the atributes necessary to agree a BBF with political equality. ı cam to that conclusion after the failure of the AP and many more people are subscribing to this belief that agree partition si the only real solution we can agree.

[Nikitas]

"The failure of the previous paradigm to produce a settlement in spite of so much effort will be used to justify a new approach. I think this may be more along the lines of partition, which makes me sad."

Interesting comment Tim. But how will the new approach solve the properties issue when the individuals concerned will still have rights over their properties in the north and south? If there is no legalisation by a plebiscite then the properties issue remains open, no matter how many changes of direction the UN or anyone else adopts.

[Viewpoint]

"The failure of the previous paradigm to produce a settlement in spite of so much effort will be used to justify a new approach. I think this may be more along the lines of partition, which makes me sad."

Interesting comment Tim. But how will the new approach solve the properties issue when the individuals concerned will still have rights over their properties in the north and south? If there is no legalisation by a plebiscite then the properties issue remains open, no matter how many changes of direction the UN or anyone else adopts.

A combination of repatriation, compensation and exchange will solve that issue. All we have to agree is the land % and the rest will fall into place.

[Tim Drayton]

Dear Zan,

Please take the time to read up on South Africa. It is a shining example of the road that Cyprus should follow. The minority were magnanimous enough to accept the reality of their situation and the majority were responisble enough to accept their position. That is why the country has a Bill of rights in the constitution. It did not need any of the surrounding states to act as a guarantor. The country did not decend into anarchy or civil war. Believe me, this model for a solution is exactly what Cyprus needs. It has nothing to do about 'capitulation' or 'points scoring'. You must break away from that mindset. Think outside of the box if you are really interested in peace and prosperity. Do not get caught up in the same old paradigm that our politicians hae been using for the last 50 years.

The situation of the majority that you describe is very interesting but rather misquoted I am afraid. Poverty in South Africa is a phenomenon that will not disappear overnight and it is not caused by the new dispensation. As for the £60 I am not sure where you got this amount from.

Jerry - thank you for the welcome. I hope to make a positive contribution.

Tim - I share your sentiments and this is why I think that the people of Cyprus deserve a better deal. They need new politicians who have the guts to make hard decisions if Cyprus is to settle this problem.

I worked with a black South African colleague in Qatar about 5 years ago. This guy was over the moon that Apartheid is over - even if poverty continues and he has had to go abroad to find work. Some of the tales that he told me about life as a Zulu under Apartheid were really hair curling. Poverty is one thing - public whippings for failing to show the required deference to a white is quite another.