Cyprus-Forum.com

[YFred]

It is clear to me that if the posts made here are anything to go by, then the politicians must be kidding themselves if they think that they can come up with a solution to the Cyprus problem.

The situation in Cyprus is by now a well known historical event. The causes for the event lying in the nationalistic apsirations of extremists of
both communities. The negotiations the are being undertaken
at the moment have been preceeded by several rounds of similar negotiations over the last thrity-odd years. Those were not successful and if historical precedent is anything to go by these talks will not produce any concrete results either. In my opinion, the reasons why these talks will also produce no solid or lasting solution to the situation in Cyprus
are the following:

The mindset and ideologies of the negotiators.
The continual inclusion of the guarantor powers
Inability to learn from similar and outside expeiences.


I will now attempt to explain my rationale of highlighting these
reasons.

The mindset and ideologies of the negotiators. the negotiators of both communities in Cyprus still maintain the thinking of politicians dating to the 50's and 60's. They continue to use langauge, wording and strategy-making of cold war era politicians. The political lanscape and environment has changed a great deal since the conflict in Cyprus erupted. The negotiators have continued to talk on the basis that their surrounding political and social environment has not changed since. A new set of negotiators is necessary. They need to be young, politicallly trained, experienced in international politics and society. Ideally these
will be young men and women that have lived abroad, have broader horizons and are not bound to any specific political or religious organisation that may enforce a collective will on them.

The continual inclusion of guarantor powers. This is a point in the negotiations that is the most archaic. At the time when the problems began between the communities there was a strong desire to link the 'mother' nations to the communities and a solution to the problem. This was started before an independent Cypriot state came into being
and was continued there after. This was included in the 1960 constitution and it is my belief that this contributed to making the aforementioned constitution unworkable. Cyprus is a state that is close on nearly half a century old. It is established in the world order and its sovereignity should not be questioned. Since 2004 it has been a full member of the European Union and as such it is fully integrated into the structures of the EU. It does not require guarantor nations in the scheme of membership of the EU. If anything, the solution should be subject to the laws and
regulations of the EU.

The situation in Cyprus is not unique. There are many parts of the world where there is conflict and division based on nationalism, religion and ethnicity. Northern Ireland and South Africa are but two examples of countries in which there existed a great deal of conflict between communities, yet amicable and workable solutions have been found. The negotiators and politicians in Cyprus(of both communities) need to examine and learn from the experiences of these countries. In fact, I believe that the example of South Africa should be followed in order to provide the basis of a solution to the Cyprus problem. The
South African constitution should be adopted wholesale by the new authorities in Cyprus. A few amendments should be made. The Bill of Rights should be included and the allocation of minority quotas should be avoided. In addition the new state should not include any affirmative action policies. The only issue that will require some thought is the issue of compensation or land restitution. However, the SA situation should be followed and after areas of authority have been identified, then either
compensation or restitution should be made. The process to be followed should be that of willing seller-willing buyer. In a situation where the seller
does not deem to be satisfied by this principle then the authorities may go through a forced purchase at a market related price. A unitary state needs to be created with a strict adherance to the separation of powers between the executive, legislative and judical powers. A system of proportional voting needs to be brought in. The sovereignity of the state must exist within the framework of the EU.

This is the only viable solution to the creation of a unitary state in Cyprus. To be frank anything short of this would be unworkable and bound to fail. The only other alternative then is partition. I would fully support partition as the only way forward to the situation in Cyprus if the SA model is not followed. It is time that this issue is settled(with some liking it and others not) and that the authorities start to focus on issues that affect the quality of daily life of the people living on the island.

I, like you, am no longer very hopeful about the current negotiations. I have a feeling that when the talks fail this time, the 'international community' - which in my opinion is nothing more than a euphemism for Western neo-colonialist interests - will fundamentally rethink its paradigm on Cyprus. I can see a new UN resolution coming which will depart from, or even reverse, the logic of earlier resolutions. The failure of the previous paradigm to produce a settlement in spite of so much effort will be used to justify a new approach. I think this may be more along the lines of partition, which makes me sad.

The irony of it all is that only then will the GCs be ready to negotiated a reasonable settlement but it will be too late because the TCs will no longer be interested.
Life sucks, don't it?

[Jerry]

It is clear to me that if the posts made here are anything to go by, then the politicians must be kidding themselves if they think that they can come up with a solution to the Cyprus problem.

The situation in Cyprus is by now a well known historical event. The causes for the event lying in the nationalistic apsirations of extremists of
both communities. The negotiations the are being undertaken
at the moment have been preceeded by several rounds of similar negotiations over the last thrity-odd years. Those were not successful and if historical precedent is anything to go by these talks will not produce any concrete results either. In my opinion, the reasons why these talks will also produce no solid or lasting solution to the situation in Cyprus
are the following:

The mindset and ideologies of the negotiators.
The continual inclusion of the guarantor powers
Inability to learn from similar and outside expeiences.


I will now attempt to explain my rationale of highlighting these
reasons.

The mindset and ideologies of the negotiators. the negotiators of both communities in Cyprus still maintain the thinking of politicians dating to the 50's and 60's. They continue to use langauge, wording and strategy-making of cold war era politicians. The political lanscape and environment has changed a great deal since the conflict in Cyprus erupted. The negotiators have continued to talk on the basis that their surrounding political and social environment has not changed since. A new set of negotiators is necessary. They need to be young, politicallly trained, experienced in international politics and society. Ideally these
will be young men and women that have lived abroad, have broader horizons and are not bound to any specific political or religious organisation that may enforce a collective will on them.

The continual inclusion of guarantor powers. This is a point in the negotiations that is the most archaic. At the time when the problems began between the communities there was a strong desire to link the 'mother' nations to the communities and a solution to the problem. This was started before an independent Cypriot state came into being
and was continued there after. This was included in the 1960 constitution and it is my belief that this contributed to making the aforementioned constitution unworkable. Cyprus is a state that is close on nearly half a century old. It is established in the world order and its sovereignity should not be questioned. Since 2004 it has been a full member of the European Union and as such it is fully integrated into the structures of the EU. It does not require guarantor nations in the scheme of membership of the EU. If anything, the solution should be subject to the laws and
regulations of the EU.

The situation in Cyprus is not unique. There are many parts of the world where there is conflict and division based on nationalism, religion and ethnicity. Northern Ireland and South Africa are but two examples of countries in which there existed a great deal of conflict between communities, yet amicable and workable solutions have been found. The negotiators and politicians in Cyprus(of both communities) need to examine and learn from the experiences of these countries. In fact, I believe that the example of South Africa should be followed in order to provide the basis of a solution to the Cyprus problem. The
South African constitution should be adopted wholesale by the new authorities in Cyprus. A few amendments should be made. The Bill of Rights should be included and the allocation of minority quotas should be avoided. In addition the new state should not include any affirmative action policies. The only issue that will require some thought is the issue of compensation or land restitution. However, the SA situation should be followed and after areas of authority have been identified, then either
compensation or restitution should be made. The process to be followed should be that of willing seller-willing buyer. In a situation where the seller
does not deem to be satisfied by this principle then the authorities may go through a forced purchase at a market related price. A unitary state needs to be created with a strict adherance to the separation of powers between the executive, legislative and judical powers. A system of proportional voting needs to be brought in. The sovereignity of the state must exist within the framework of the EU.

This is the only viable solution to the creation of a unitary state in Cyprus. To be frank anything short of this would be unworkable and bound to fail. The only other alternative then is partition. I would fully support partition as the only way forward to the situation in Cyprus if the SA model is not followed. It is time that this issue is settled(with some liking it and others not) and that the authorities start to focus on issues that affect the quality of daily life of the people living on the island.

I, like you, am no longer very hopeful about the current negotiations. I have a feeling that when the talks fail this time, the 'international community' - which in my opinion is nothing more than a euphemism for Western neo-colonialist interests - will fundamentally rethink its paradigm on Cyprus. I can see a new UN resolution coming which will depart from, or even reverse, the logic of earlier resolutions. The failure of the previous paradigm to produce a settlement in spite of so much effort will be used to justify a new approach. I think this may be more along the lines of partition, which makes me sad.

The irony of it all is that only then will the GCs be ready to negotiated a reasonable settlement but it will be too late because the TCs will no longer be interested.
Life sucks, don't it?

Double Irony Fred, the TCs won't be interested because they will be living elsewhere - certainly not in Cyprus!

[YFred]

It is clear to me that if the posts made here are anything to go by, then the politicians must be kidding themselves if they think that they can come up with a solution to the Cyprus problem.

The situation in Cyprus is by now a well known historical event. The causes for the event lying in the nationalistic apsirations of extremists of
both communities. The negotiations the are being undertaken
at the moment have been preceeded by several rounds of similar negotiations over the last thrity-odd years. Those were not successful and if historical precedent is anything to go by these talks will not produce any concrete results either. In my opinion, the reasons why these talks will also produce no solid or lasting solution to the situation in Cyprus
are the following:

The mindset and ideologies of the negotiators.
The continual inclusion of the guarantor powers
Inability to learn from similar and outside expeiences.


I will now attempt to explain my rationale of highlighting these
reasons.

The mindset and ideologies of the negotiators. the negotiators of both communities in Cyprus still maintain the thinking of politicians dating to the 50's and 60's. They continue to use langauge, wording and strategy-making of cold war era politicians. The political lanscape and environment has changed a great deal since the conflict in Cyprus erupted. The negotiators have continued to talk on the basis that their surrounding political and social environment has not changed since. A new set of negotiators is necessary. They need to be young, politicallly trained, experienced in international politics and society. Ideally these
will be young men and women that have lived abroad, have broader horizons and are not bound to any specific political or religious organisation that may enforce a collective will on them.

The continual inclusion of guarantor powers. This is a point in the negotiations that is the most archaic. At the time when the problems began between the communities there was a strong desire to link the 'mother' nations to the communities and a solution to the problem. This was started before an independent Cypriot state came into being
and was continued there after. This was included in the 1960 constitution and it is my belief that this contributed to making the aforementioned constitution unworkable. Cyprus is a state that is close on nearly half a century old. It is established in the world order and its sovereignity should not be questioned. Since 2004 it has been a full member of the European Union and as such it is fully integrated into the structures of the EU. It does not require guarantor nations in the scheme of membership of the EU. If anything, the solution should be subject to the laws and
regulations of the EU.

The situation in Cyprus is not unique. There are many parts of the world where there is conflict and division based on nationalism, religion and ethnicity. Northern Ireland and South Africa are but two examples of countries in which there existed a great deal of conflict between communities, yet amicable and workable solutions have been found. The negotiators and politicians in Cyprus(of both communities) need to examine and learn from the experiences of these countries. In fact, I believe that the example of South Africa should be followed in order to provide the basis of a solution to the Cyprus problem. The
South African constitution should be adopted wholesale by the new authorities in Cyprus. A few amendments should be made. The Bill of Rights should be included and the allocation of minority quotas should be avoided. In addition the new state should not include any affirmative action policies. The only issue that will require some thought is the issue of compensation or land restitution. However, the SA situation should be followed and after areas of authority have been identified, then either
compensation or restitution should be made. The process to be followed should be that of willing seller-willing buyer. In a situation where the seller
does not deem to be satisfied by this principle then the authorities may go through a forced purchase at a market related price. A unitary state needs to be created with a strict adherance to the separation of powers between the executive, legislative and judical powers. A system of proportional voting needs to be brought in. The sovereignity of the state must exist within the framework of the EU.

This is the only viable solution to the creation of a unitary state in Cyprus. To be frank anything short of this would be unworkable and bound to fail. The only other alternative then is partition. I would fully support partition as the only way forward to the situation in Cyprus if the SA model is not followed. It is time that this issue is settled(with some liking it and others not) and that the authorities start to focus on issues that affect the quality of daily life of the people living on the island.

I, like you, am no longer very hopeful about the current negotiations. I have a feeling that when the talks fail this time, the 'international community' - which in my opinion is nothing more than a euphemism for Western neo-colonialist interests - will fundamentally rethink its paradigm on Cyprus. I can see a new UN resolution coming which will depart from, or even reverse, the logic of earlier resolutions. The failure of the previous paradigm to produce a settlement in spite of so much effort will be used to justify a new approach. I think this may be more along the lines of partition, which makes me sad.

The irony of it all is that only then will the GCs be ready to negotiated a reasonable settlement but it will be too late because the TCs will no longer be interested.
Life sucks, don't it?

Double Irony Fred, the TCs won't be interested because they will be living elsewhere - certainly not in Cyprus!

You are not reading my posts. We is coming back to repopulate Cyprus especially when we get the compensation from the roc.

[Cypriot Nick]

Dear Zan,

Please take the time to read up on South Africa. It is a shining example of the road that Cyprus should follow. The minority were magnanimous enough to accept the reality of their situation and the majority were responisble enough to accept their position. That is why the country has a Bill of rights in the constitution. It did not need any of the surrounding states to act as a guarantor. The country did not decend into anarchy or civil war. Believe me, this model for a solution is exactly what Cyprus needs. It has nothing to do about 'capitulation' or 'points scoring'. You must break away from that mindset. Think outside of the box if you are really interested in peace and prosperity. Do not get caught up in the same old paradigm that our politicians hae been using for the last 50 years.

The situation of the majority that you describe is very interesting but rather misquoted I am afraid. Poverty in South Africa is a phenomenon that will not disappear overnight and it is not caused by the new dispensation. As for the £60 I am not sure where you got this amount from.

Jerry - thank you for the welcome. I hope to make a positive contribution.

Tim - I share your sentiments and this is why I think that the people of Cyprus deserve a better deal. They need new politicians who have the guts to make hard decisions if Cyprus is to settle this problem.

[Viewpoint]

My dear Viewpoint.

Please take the time to go read about South Africa and its history. It will help you to understand that if you continue to believe that living as a minority in a country is a form of 'capitulation' that you will remain isolated forever. This is an unfortunate reality in the modern globalised world.

Can you kindly make your point directly?

[Cypriot Nick]

Certainly, the answer for Cyprus lies in it adopting the same solution as South Africa did when it ended Apartheid.

[insan]

Certainly, the answer for Cyprus lies in it adopting the same solution as South Africa did when it ended Apartheid.

Consociationalism helped achieve peace and inclusiveness during the transition to democracy in South Africa. In South Africa, the elites recognised the ...
www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Consociationalism

Don't talk abt consociationalism here, Cypriot Nick because overwhelming majority of GCs r fiercly against it... Welcome aboard, btw.

Since u r a Cypriot too, why u refer us as "they"?

[Viewpoint]

Dear Zan,

Please take the time to read up on South Africa. It is a shining example of the road that Cyprus should follow. The minority were magnanimous enough to accept the reality of their situation and the majority were responisble enough to accept their position. That is why the country has a Bill of rights in the constitution. It did not need any of the surrounding states to act as a guarantor. The country did not decend into anarchy or civil war. Believe me, this model for a solution is exactly what Cyprus needs. It has nothing to do about 'capitulation' or 'points scoring'. You must break away from that mindset. Think outside of the box if you are really interested in peace and prosperity. Do not get caught up in the same old paradigm that our politicians hae been using for the last 50 years.

The situation of the majority that you describe is very interesting but rather misquoted I am afraid. Poverty in South Africa is a phenomenon that will not disappear overnight and it is not caused by the new dispensation. As for the £60 I am not sure where you got this amount from.

Jerry - thank you for the welcome. I hope to make a positive contribution.

Tim - I share your sentiments and this is why I think that the people of Cyprus deserve a better deal. They need new politicians who have the guts to make hard decisions if Cyprus is to settle this problem.

Is this what you are referring to Nick?

South African government demands answers over Canada's 'racist' decision to give white man asylum


The South African government has ordered its ambassador to Canada to demand answers over the decision to grant refugee status to a South African because he is white.
Brandon Huntley, 31, from Cape Town, said he had been stabbed three times by black robbers, who called him a 'white dog' and a 'settler' - a reference to South Africa's colonial past based on racial apartheid.
He told the panel: 'There's a hatred of what we did to them and it's all about the colour of your skin.'

But the ruling ANC's Department of International Relations and Co-operation's spokeswoman, Nomfanelo Kota, described the decision as 'disgusting'.
And a statement from the ANC described the decision as 'racist.'

It read: 'We find the claim by Huntley to have been attacked seven times by Africans due his skin color without any police intervention sensational and alarming.

'Canada's reasoning for granting Huntley a refugee status can only serve to perpetuate racism.'

Board chairman William Davis said: 'I find the claimant would stand out like a sore thumb due to his colour in any part of the country.'
He claimed Mr Huntley's evidence showed 'a picture of indifference and inability or unwillingness of the South African government to protect white South Africans from persecution by African South Africans'.
It is thought to be the first time a white South African man has been granted refugee status in Canada claiming he was the victim of black aggression said his lawyer Russell Kaplan.
Speaking about black on white violence in South Africa, Mr Huntley said: 'There’s a hatred of what we did to them and it’s all about the colour of your skin.'
Mr Huntley first travelled to Canada on a six-month work permit in 2004 to work as a carnival attendant.

He returned to South Africa and then went back to work in Canada in 2005 for a year and stayed illegally for an additional year until he made a refugee claim in April 2008.

He grew up in the affluent Cape Town suburb of Mowbray close to the slopes of the Devil’s Peak next to Table Mountain.

He told the paper: 'If you have got the money, you can protect yourself.'
Most middle class South African can afford 24-hours armed security, electric fences, guard dogs and security beams.

Many white South Africans have packed up and left, moving to Canada, Australia and the UK blaming crime and positive discrimination in the job market in favour of non-whites many of whom received little or poor education opportunities during apartheid.

Mr Davis said the evidence of Mr Huntley and Ms Kaplan 'show a picture of indifference and inability or unwillingness' of the South African government to protect 'white South Africans from persecution by African South Africans'.


Is this what you want for us??? and the South Africans are calling Canada racist.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

The "trnc" is illegal. You are obligated to dissolve it, you are not doing us any favors and you are not compromising anything. So you demanding 29% land for your 18% minority represents an 11% gain not any kind of flavor or compromise. On the other hand the whole of Cyprus belongs to the unitary Republic of Cyprus, and the whole of Cyprus has a GC majority. Accepting that even 1% of this island can be a separate Turkish State is already a compromise from our part, a compromise we were never obligated to make.

You keeping 1/3rd of our island as hostage and blackmailing us can force us to make a certain amount of compromises. And we did. We accepted a BFF with a certain content. What you need to understand is that more blackmailing will not force us to make more compromises. You have already gained too much on our expense.

So either accept the compromise we are willing to make, or continue to act illegally and face the consequences of your illegalities. And remember that if no solution is found it will be your fault because while we were not obligated to make any compromises we have already done many (accepting a certain kind of BBF) while you haven't even done what you are obligated to do (disbanding the "trnc" and withdrawing your troops from the north part of Republic of Cyprus).

So don't hope that the consequences of your illegalities will magically disappear if the negotiations fail. On the contrary the consequences will become more since Greek Cypriot refugees will not wait for a comprehensive solution to solve their property problem and cases such as the Orams one will come one after another.

Piratis do you really understand taking into account the reality before you? The current situation as you admit is a result of both sides errors and any new solution will have to take into account those mistakes allowing for the rights designated in the 1960 agreements which sets out that we both have power sharing 30% 70% with TC veto and security guarantees, do you really expect us to ditch all this just becuase you are the majority, well sorry to disappoint but it aint gonna happen. The world is telling you to negotiate a BBF with political equality but you desparately want to force a unitary state where our previously givenn rights to which you placed your signature are taken away and we are reduced to minority status in a GC state run by Gcs speaking Greek. Capitulation is not an option for us, the current unrecognized TRNC is 1000% preferred to what you are offering when will you get this clarification as it appears to fall on death ears.

[Cypriot Nick]

Dear Viewpoint,

Yes, the Huntley episode was an interesting case. However you have given us just one version of the story. Please be objective if you want to have a serious discussion on the merits of the solution that I have offered. Did you also know that Mr Huntley is in Canada illegally or that the Canadian government has challenged the ruling? As for white South African's that have emograted - more than 90 percent have chosen to stay. How many Turkish Cypriots have migrated in the last 30-odd years? I do not want a tit for tat discussion. Please make a a comment as to the viability of the model with your reasons and then we can have a far more fruitful debate. As for what I want for the TC's it is quite clear. I want the TC's to be part of a unitary state where their rights are enshrined in the Consitution and upheld by an independent judiciary. I want the TC's to be able to exercise these rights without prejudice in any part of Cyprus that they choose. I want the GC's to have these same rights.