Cyprus-Forum.com

[Cypriot Nick]

My dear Viewpoint.

Please take the time to go read about South Africa and its history. It will help you to understand that if you continue to believe that living as a minority in a country is a form of 'capitulation' that you will remain isolated forever. This is an unfortunate reality in the modern globalised world.

[B25]

B25, you have a problem reading my posts. Did you read carefully what I said about the guarantors?

Can you tell me how we can get rid of all settlers and how all the refugees will return to their homes, when all parties in Cyprus have agreed that the solution we are after is bicommunal, bizonal federation?

Really, you have exposed your fascist disposition, by calling people with a different from yours view, pro turkish and worth murdering in the true spirit of EOKA fiends who not only murdered more Greek Cypriots than Brits but paved the way for the eventual destruction of Cyprus with the tactics they chose to employ in order to unite Cyprus with Greece.

Banaiot, I ready your post and I know exactly what you are about. I have no interest in Greece, that ideal was nearly 50 years ago, let it go, I am talking about ridding this country of a cancer that you openly support.

Everything is impossible for you, you don't even want to consider ways around the problem, just give up, let them take what they want and we to shut up!

No Bananiot, I won't, not you or any one else is going to silence me, until we are rid of this disease.

I understand you have your views but when it impinges and affects the greater good of my people then I will oppose you. and anyone else.

Bananiot a challenge, I am willing to die for my belief, are you?

Too easy, go climb a flag pole, see how brave you are. Saying you would die is one thing, doing it is another.

That is really saying something about your "state" and society when you kill an unarmed person for climbing a flag poll, and then flaunt the fact that you would do it again.

How brave do you feel?

This is a person that has boasted that his people would take care of Bananiot in 2 minutes. He also said that he is brave enough to die for his country. It was a very simple proposition to see how brave he is. I have never condoned violence, except for violent individuals. I learnt quite early in life that speaking moderately to an extreme person does not work, because you are perceived as a weak person. So there is only one way you can get through to them.
As far as I am concerned, I am not a violent person, I don't go round looking for a fight but attack me or any other individual in front of me and I will not just sit by and watch it. His posts have been something else on this forum, and I think he can answer for himself without your help.

So, go forth and multiply you little antipodean snake.

Tough guy TMT activist how likes to boast his family committed murders against GCs and then 'U' turned when challenged, yeah I can speak for myself, and little thieving twats like you are nothing to me.

So whats your game plan buster?

[Jerry]

My dear Viewpoint.

Please take the time to go read about South Africa and its history. It will help you to understand that if you continue to believe that living as a minority in a country is a form of 'capitulation' that you will remain isolated forever. This is an unfortunate reality in the modern globalised world.

Welcome to the forum Nick. It's quite refreshing to read a balanced intelligent post instead of the usual bitching/point scoring that is posted here. There will, no doubt, be attempts by some seasoned "heavyweights" on both sides to see you off, stick it out.

You are absolutely right in what you say about the guarantor powers. Unless the EU, UN etc realise that the right to intervene effectively means that Cyprus is not a sovereign State there will never be a fair solution to the problem, and yes it's time some younger Cypriots were involved in the negotiations.

[zan]

It is clear to me that if the posts made here are anything to go by, then the politicians must be kidding themselves if they think that they can come up with a solution to the Cyprus problem.

The situation in Cyprus is by now a well known historical event. The causes for the event lying in the nationalistic apsirations of extremists of
both communities. The negotiations the are being undertaken
at the moment have been preceeded by several rounds of similar negotiations over the last thrity-odd years. Those were not successful and if historical precedent is anything to go by these talks will not produce any concrete results either. In my opinion, the reasons why these talks will also produce no solid or lasting solution to the situation in Cyprus
are the following:

The mindset and ideologies of the negotiators.
The continual inclusion of the guarantor powers
Inability to learn from similar and outside expeiences.


I will now attempt to explain my rationale of highlighting these
reasons.

The mindset and ideologies of the negotiators. the negotiators of both communities in Cyprus still maintain the thinking of politicians dating to the 50's and 60's. They continue to use langauge, wording and strategy-making of cold war era politicians. The political lanscape and environment has changed a great deal since the conflict in Cyprus erupted. The negotiators have continued to talk on the basis that their surrounding political and social environment has not changed since. A new set of negotiators is necessary. They need to be young, politicallly trained, experienced in international politics and society. Ideally these
will be young men and women that have lived abroad, have broader horizons and are not bound to any specific political or religious organisation that may enforce a collective will on them.

The continual inclusion of guarantor powers. This is a point in the negotiations that is the most archaic. At the time when the problems began between the communities there was a strong desire to link the 'mother' nations to the communities and a solution to the problem. This was started before an independent Cypriot state came into being
and was continued there after. This was included in the 1960 constitution and it is my belief that this contributed to making the aforementioned constitution unworkable. Cyprus is a state that is close on nearly half a century old. It is established in the world order and its sovereignity should not be questioned. Since 2004 it has been a full member of the European Union and as such it is fully integrated into the structures of the EU. It does not require guarantor nations in the scheme of membership of the EU. If anything, the solution should be subject to the laws and
regulations of the EU.

The situation in Cyprus is not unique. There are many parts of the world where there is conflict and division based on nationalism, religion and ethnicity. Northern Ireland and South Africa are but two examples of countries in which there existed a great deal of conflict between communities, yet amicable and workable solutions have been found. The negotiators and politicians in Cyprus(of both communities) need to examine and learn from the experiences of these countries. In fact, I believe that the example of South Africa should be followed in order to provide the basis of a solution to the Cyprus problem. The
South African constitution should be adopted wholesale by the new authorities in Cyprus. A few amendments should be made. The Bill of Rights should be included and the allocation of minority quotas should be avoided. In addition the new state should not include any affirmative action policies. The only issue that will require some thought is the issue of compensation or land restitution. However, the SA situation should be followed and after areas of authority have been identified, then either
compensation or restitution should be made. The process to be followed should be that of willing seller-willing buyer. In a situation where the seller
does not deem to be satisfied by this principle then the authorities may go through a forced purchase at a market related price. A unitary state needs to be created with a strict adherance to the separation of powers between the executive, legislative and judical powers. A system of proportional voting needs to be brought in. The sovereignity of the state must exist within the framework of the EU.

This is the only viable solution to the creation of a unitary state in Cyprus. To be frank anything short of this would be unworkable and bound to fail. The only other alternative then is partition. I would fully support partition as the only way forward to the situation in Cyprus if the SA model is not followed. It is time that this issue is settled(with some liking it and others not) and that the authorities start to focus on issues that affect the quality of daily life of the people living on the island.

Tell us again how good it is for the blacks in SA???

[Piratis]

Can you tell me how we can get rid of all settlers and how all the refugees will return to their homes, when all parties in Cyprus have agreed that the solution we are after is bicommunal, bizonal federation?

Can you tell me what in the term "BBF" requires that settlers should stay in Cyprus??? Absolutely nothing. In fact we never agreed that any Settlers will stay in Cyprus, let alone have some universal agreement on this. The settler issue is just part of the give and take, and we might accept a certain number of Settlers to stay if the TCs also accept several other things that would make a solution acceptable to us.

Also a solution based on "BBF" does not preclude all refugees from returning to their homes. All that "BBF" says is that we will have a Federation with 2 states (Bi-zonal) and with each state having as a majority one of the communities (Bi-Communal). If the "TC State" is small enough and encompasses mostly areas where the TCs have been the majority before 74 + some government land, then all refugees can return to their homes and we will still have a BBF as a result.

"BBF" is a term that means very little. It just means "bicommunal bizonal federation" as I described it above, and nothing more.

Here is a BBF that most Cypriots would agree to:

The Turks demand 29%+ of land for their 18% minority. That is 11% more than their population ratio. So lets reverse that, and make it 11% less. So what we have is a Federation with 2 zones one of which would be 93% of the territory and have a majority of GCS and the other one made of the 7% of the territory and have a majority of TCs. These 2 states will be just administrative regions and they will be under a strong, central, democratically elected by Cypriots as a whole, government modeled after other federations, like for example the Russian Federation. No Settlers and no Turkish troops will be allowed to stay.

What I describe above is definitely a BBF solution and it will be definitely accepted by the Greek Cypriots. It will also definitely be rejected by the TCs. Would that mean that TCs reject BBF? No, it will mean that they reject this particular version of BBF, just like we would reject some other versions of BBF.

Therefore we will accept a BBF solution if it has content that suits us, and the TCs will accept a BBF solution if it has a content that suits them.

What you are asking from us is not to accept "BBF", because we already did. What you are asking from us is to accept a BBF the way the Turks want it to be, and we will definitely not accept that!

Maybe you should try to convince your TC friends to accept the BBF as we want it? Why don't you try that? If they are not "nationalist, rejectionist, fascists" they should have no problem to accept any kind of BBF, right?

Great attempt at reverse phsycology but the bottom line is some red lines are their because of the other sides mistakes and the threat they impose on a solution...the AP is a blueprint of what is necessary to keep GCs in check, have you ever thought of it from that angle? of course not your are a GC.

Viewpoint, I will not repeat the tons of facts that show that it is the Turks who are the aggressors in Cyprus, the ones who started all conflicts and wars in Cyprus, and the ones who from the day they set their foot on our island until today keep violating the human rights of the Cypriot people. We discussed these things many times in the past.

In fact a "BBF" (even the best one, as we accept it) is a compromise from our side because your side refused to obey the UN Resolution of 20th of July of 1974 which demanded the withdrawal of all foreign troops and the respect of the sovereignty of Republic of Cyprus.

If you had any right for a "BBF" based on our actions, then why was there no resolution about such thing before 1974? Neither the intercommunal conflict (which you started) nor the coup (several coops happened in Turkey as well) was an excuse for any "BBF" otherwise this would have been said in some of the resolutions before 1974. So don't claim that "BBF" is due to our actions, since it is in fact a compromise we made due to your illegal actions.

Therefore "BBF" is not something you have the right for, but a compromise we made seeing that you were not willing to respect the UN resolutions. Our agreement for "BBF" was a result of you keeping 1/3rd of our country as a hostage and blackmailing us with this.

You are obligated to obey the resolutions demanding the withdrawal of your troops from Cyprus and declaring the illegality of the "trnc". Nobody asked you if it was OK to issue such resolutions. You broke international law, and that is why those resolutions were issued against you.

On the other hand we were never obligated to accept any kind of "BBF". Makarios accepted the "BBF" proposal, but he didn't have to. In the same way Annan plan was just a proposal that we didn't have to accept it (and we didn't).

Therefore it is only us who can say how much of a compromise we are willing to make. Nobody obligates us to make any more compromises than we have already agreed for. It is only us who can say what the acceptable parameters of "BBF" can be, and nobody has the right to obligate us to accept anything beyond that.

But you remain obligated by UN resolutions that demand the withdrawal of your troops from Cyprus, the respect of the sovereignty of RoC, and declare the illegality of the "trnc". This is why you will continue to suffer the consequences of your illegal actions until either (1) Accept legality as it exists today or (2) Accept our proposals for a BBF with a content that is acceptable to us.

Lets look at it from the reverse angle that you are trying to use TCs are giving up a whopping 71% of their island, their security, 8% of the current TRNC, abolishing the TRNC..we are willing to pay for our sins by not being recognized because this is 1000% more preferred to becoming just another minority in a Gc state run by Gcs. Are you willing to pay for yours???

The "trnc" is illegal. You are obligated to dissolve it, you are not doing us any favors and you are not compromising anything. So you demanding 29% land for your 18% minority represents an 11% gain not any kind of flavor or compromise. On the other hand the whole of Cyprus belongs to the unitary Republic of Cyprus, and the whole of Cyprus has a GC majority. Accepting that even 1% of this island can be a separate Turkish State is already a compromise from our part, a compromise we were never obligated to make.

You keeping 1/3rd of our island as hostage and blackmailing us can force us to make a certain amount of compromises. And we did. We accepted a BFF with a certain content. What you need to understand is that more blackmailing will not force us to make more compromises. You have already gained too much on our expense.

So either accept the compromise we are willing to make, or continue to act illegally and face the consequences of your illegalities. And remember that if no solution is found it will be your fault because while we were not obligated to make any compromises we have already done many (accepting a certain kind of BBF) while you haven't even done what you are obligated to do (disbanding the "trnc" and withdrawing your troops from the north part of Republic of Cyprus).

So don't hope that the consequences of your illegalities will magically disappear if the negotiations fail. On the contrary the consequences will become more since Greek Cypriot refugees will not wait for a comprehensive solution to solve their property problem and cases such as the Orams one will come one after another.

[Jerry]

It is clear to me that if the posts made here are anything to go by, then the politicians must be kidding themselves if they think that they can come up with a solution to the Cyprus problem.

The situation in Cyprus is by now a well known historical event. The causes for the event lying in the nationalistic apsirations of extremists of
both communities. The negotiations the are being undertaken
at the moment have been preceeded by several rounds of similar negotiations over the last thrity-odd years. Those were not successful and if historical precedent is anything to go by these talks will not produce any concrete results either. In my opinion, the reasons why these talks will also produce no solid or lasting solution to the situation in Cyprus
are the following:

The mindset and ideologies of the negotiators.
The continual inclusion of the guarantor powers
Inability to learn from similar and outside expeiences.


I will now attempt to explain my rationale of highlighting these
reasons.

The mindset and ideologies of the negotiators. the negotiators of both communities in Cyprus still maintain the thinking of politicians dating to the 50's and 60's. They continue to use langauge, wording and strategy-making of cold war era politicians. The political lanscape and environment has changed a great deal since the conflict in Cyprus erupted. The negotiators have continued to talk on the basis that their surrounding political and social environment has not changed since. A new set of negotiators is necessary. They need to be young, politicallly trained, experienced in international politics and society. Ideally these
will be young men and women that have lived abroad, have broader horizons and are not bound to any specific political or religious organisation that may enforce a collective will on them.

The continual inclusion of guarantor powers. This is a point in the negotiations that is the most archaic. At the time when the problems began between the communities there was a strong desire to link the 'mother' nations to the communities and a solution to the problem. This was started before an independent Cypriot state came into being
and was continued there after. This was included in the 1960 constitution and it is my belief that this contributed to making the aforementioned constitution unworkable. Cyprus is a state that is close on nearly half a century old. It is established in the world order and its sovereignity should not be questioned. Since 2004 it has been a full member of the European Union and as such it is fully integrated into the structures of the EU. It does not require guarantor nations in the scheme of membership of the EU. If anything, the solution should be subject to the laws and
regulations of the EU.

The situation in Cyprus is not unique. There are many parts of the world where there is conflict and division based on nationalism, religion and ethnicity. Northern Ireland and South Africa are but two examples of countries in which there existed a great deal of conflict between communities, yet amicable and workable solutions have been found. The negotiators and politicians in Cyprus(of both communities) need to examine and learn from the experiences of these countries. In fact, I believe that the example of South Africa should be followed in order to provide the basis of a solution to the Cyprus problem. The
South African constitution should be adopted wholesale by the new authorities in Cyprus. A few amendments should be made. The Bill of Rights should be included and the allocation of minority quotas should be avoided. In addition the new state should not include any affirmative action policies. The only issue that will require some thought is the issue of compensation or land restitution. However, the SA situation should be followed and after areas of authority have been identified, then either
compensation or restitution should be made. The process to be followed should be that of willing seller-willing buyer. In a situation where the seller
does not deem to be satisfied by this principle then the authorities may go through a forced purchase at a market related price. A unitary state needs to be created with a strict adherance to the separation of powers between the executive, legislative and judical powers. A system of proportional voting needs to be brought in. The sovereignity of the state must exist within the framework of the EU.

This is the only viable solution to the creation of a unitary state in Cyprus. To be frank anything short of this would be unworkable and bound to fail. The only other alternative then is partition. I would fully support partition as the only way forward to the situation in Cyprus if the SA model is not followed. It is time that this issue is settled(with some liking it and others not) and that the authorities start to focus on issues that affect the quality of daily life of the people living on the island.

Tell us again how good it is for the blacks in SA???

Idiot, the blacks were the oppressed majority, rather like the Greek Cypriots were under your masters. You got it the wrong way round.

[Tim Drayton]

It is clear to me that if the posts made here are anything to go by, then the politicians must be kidding themselves if they think that they can come up with a solution to the Cyprus problem.

The situation in Cyprus is by now a well known historical event. The causes for the event lying in the nationalistic apsirations of extremists of
both communities. The negotiations the are being undertaken
at the moment have been preceeded by several rounds of similar negotiations over the last thrity-odd years. Those were not successful and if historical precedent is anything to go by these talks will not produce any concrete results either. In my opinion, the reasons why these talks will also produce no solid or lasting solution to the situation in Cyprus
are the following:

The mindset and ideologies of the negotiators.
The continual inclusion of the guarantor powers
Inability to learn from similar and outside expeiences.


I will now attempt to explain my rationale of highlighting these
reasons.

The mindset and ideologies of the negotiators. the negotiators of both communities in Cyprus still maintain the thinking of politicians dating to the 50's and 60's. They continue to use langauge, wording and strategy-making of cold war era politicians. The political lanscape and environment has changed a great deal since the conflict in Cyprus erupted. The negotiators have continued to talk on the basis that their surrounding political and social environment has not changed since. A new set of negotiators is necessary. They need to be young, politicallly trained, experienced in international politics and society. Ideally these
will be young men and women that have lived abroad, have broader horizons and are not bound to any specific political or religious organisation that may enforce a collective will on them.

The continual inclusion of guarantor powers. This is a point in the negotiations that is the most archaic. At the time when the problems began between the communities there was a strong desire to link the 'mother' nations to the communities and a solution to the problem. This was started before an independent Cypriot state came into being
and was continued there after. This was included in the 1960 constitution and it is my belief that this contributed to making the aforementioned constitution unworkable. Cyprus is a state that is close on nearly half a century old. It is established in the world order and its sovereignity should not be questioned. Since 2004 it has been a full member of the European Union and as such it is fully integrated into the structures of the EU. It does not require guarantor nations in the scheme of membership of the EU. If anything, the solution should be subject to the laws and
regulations of the EU.

The situation in Cyprus is not unique. There are many parts of the world where there is conflict and division based on nationalism, religion and ethnicity. Northern Ireland and South Africa are but two examples of countries in which there existed a great deal of conflict between communities, yet amicable and workable solutions have been found. The negotiators and politicians in Cyprus(of both communities) need to examine and learn from the experiences of these countries. In fact, I believe that the example of South Africa should be followed in order to provide the basis of a solution to the Cyprus problem. The
South African constitution should be adopted wholesale by the new authorities in Cyprus. A few amendments should be made. The Bill of Rights should be included and the allocation of minority quotas should be avoided. In addition the new state should not include any affirmative action policies. The only issue that will require some thought is the issue of compensation or land restitution. However, the SA situation should be followed and after areas of authority have been identified, then either
compensation or restitution should be made. The process to be followed should be that of willing seller-willing buyer. In a situation where the seller
does not deem to be satisfied by this principle then the authorities may go through a forced purchase at a market related price. A unitary state needs to be created with a strict adherance to the separation of powers between the executive, legislative and judical powers. A system of proportional voting needs to be brought in. The sovereignity of the state must exist within the framework of the EU.

This is the only viable solution to the creation of a unitary state in Cyprus. To be frank anything short of this would be unworkable and bound to fail. The only other alternative then is partition. I would fully support partition as the only way forward to the situation in Cyprus if the SA model is not followed. It is time that this issue is settled(with some liking it and others not) and that the authorities start to focus on issues that affect the quality of daily life of the people living on the island.

I, like you, am no longer very hopeful about the current negotiations. I have a feeling that when the talks fail this time, the 'international community' - which in my opinion is nothing more than a euphemism for Western neo-colonialist interests - will fundamentally rethink its paradigm on Cyprus. I can see a new UN resolution coming which will depart from, or even reverse, the logic of earlier resolutions. The failure of the previous paradigm to produce a settlement in spite of so much effort will be used to justify a new approach. I think this may be more along the lines of partition, which makes me sad.

[zan]

It is clear to me that if the posts made here are anything to go by, then the politicians must be kidding themselves if they think that they can come up with a solution to the Cyprus problem.

The situation in Cyprus is by now a well known historical event. The causes for the event lying in the nationalistic apsirations of extremists of
both communities. The negotiations the are being undertaken
at the moment have been preceeded by several rounds of similar negotiations over the last thrity-odd years. Those were not successful and if historical precedent is anything to go by these talks will not produce any concrete results either. In my opinion, the reasons why these talks will also produce no solid or lasting solution to the situation in Cyprus
are the following:

The mindset and ideologies of the negotiators.
The continual inclusion of the guarantor powers
Inability to learn from similar and outside expeiences.


I will now attempt to explain my rationale of highlighting these
reasons.

The mindset and ideologies of the negotiators. the negotiators of both communities in Cyprus still maintain the thinking of politicians dating to the 50's and 60's. They continue to use langauge, wording and strategy-making of cold war era politicians. The political lanscape and environment has changed a great deal since the conflict in Cyprus erupted. The negotiators have continued to talk on the basis that their surrounding political and social environment has not changed since. A new set of negotiators is necessary. They need to be young, politicallly trained, experienced in international politics and society. Ideally these
will be young men and women that have lived abroad, have broader horizons and are not bound to any specific political or religious organisation that may enforce a collective will on them.

The continual inclusion of guarantor powers. This is a point in the negotiations that is the most archaic. At the time when the problems began between the communities there was a strong desire to link the 'mother' nations to the communities and a solution to the problem. This was started before an independent Cypriot state came into being
and was continued there after. This was included in the 1960 constitution and it is my belief that this contributed to making the aforementioned constitution unworkable. Cyprus is a state that is close on nearly half a century old. It is established in the world order and its sovereignity should not be questioned. Since 2004 it has been a full member of the European Union and as such it is fully integrated into the structures of the EU. It does not require guarantor nations in the scheme of membership of the EU. If anything, the solution should be subject to the laws and
regulations of the EU.

The situation in Cyprus is not unique. There are many parts of the world where there is conflict and division based on nationalism, religion and ethnicity. Northern Ireland and South Africa are but two examples of countries in which there existed a great deal of conflict between communities, yet amicable and workable solutions have been found. The negotiators and politicians in Cyprus(of both communities) need to examine and learn from the experiences of these countries. In fact, I believe that the example of South Africa should be followed in order to provide the basis of a solution to the Cyprus problem. The
South African constitution should be adopted wholesale by the new authorities in Cyprus. A few amendments should be made. The Bill of Rights should be included and the allocation of minority quotas should be avoided. In addition the new state should not include any affirmative action policies. The only issue that will require some thought is the issue of compensation or land restitution. However, the SA situation should be followed and after areas of authority have been identified, then either
compensation or restitution should be made. The process to be followed should be that of willing seller-willing buyer. In a situation where the seller
does not deem to be satisfied by this principle then the authorities may go through a forced purchase at a market related price. A unitary state needs to be created with a strict adherance to the separation of powers between the executive, legislative and judical powers. A system of proportional voting needs to be brought in. The sovereignity of the state must exist within the framework of the EU.

This is the only viable solution to the creation of a unitary state in Cyprus. To be frank anything short of this would be unworkable and bound to fail. The only other alternative then is partition. I would fully support partition as the only way forward to the situation in Cyprus if the SA model is not followed. It is time that this issue is settled(with some liking it and others not) and that the authorities start to focus on issues that affect the quality of daily life of the people living on the island.

Tell us again how good it is for the blacks in SA???

Idiot, the blacks were the oppressed majority, rather like the Greek Cypriots were under your masters. You got it the wrong way round.

Obsessed with numbers again???? The reality on the ground is that the "majority" is still living in mile after mile of squalor..The ones with jobs are struggling to put together £60 in order to step up to a cardboard house...What chance has a "minority" got.

[Jerry]

Obsessed with numbers again???? The reality on the ground is that the "majority" is still living in mile after mile of squalor..The ones with jobs are struggling to put together £60 in order to step up to a cardboard house...What chance has a "minority" got.

Zan, the minority Whites are, relatively speaking, doing quite well. They were privileged, they took by force what they wanted but in the end had to settle for a form of democracy.

[zan]

Obsessed with numbers again???? The reality on the ground is that the "majority" is still living in mile after mile of squalor..The ones with jobs are struggling to put together £60 in order to step up to a cardboard house...What chance has a "minority" got.

Zan, the minority Whites are, relatively speaking, doing quite well. They were privileged, they took by force what they wanted but in the end had to settle for a form of democracy.

I think we are getting lines crossed with this majority/minority thing...

The "Form of democracy" in Cyprus is yet to be decided