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Tcs & Illegal turkish occupation

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby cannedmoose » Sat Jul 09, 2005 3:49 pm

Leon wrote:I think a lot of people do forget that the reason Turkey invaded northern Cyprus was simply to save the Turkish-Cypriots' lives. I diagree with a lot of things that both sides have done, but why do the Greek-Cypriots protest that Turkish troops should get out of Cyprus. They're helping to keep peace amongst each other.


I think you should qualify that statement somewhat Leon. I would agree that the initial landing of Turkish troops in July 1974 was aimed at defending the position of TCs who were at direct risk following the coup. If you look at the land occupied by Turkish troops as of July 23rd 1974, this pattern is clear, with them occupying a small section of the island from Kyrenia, across the northern range and into northern Nicosia, i.e. where the greatest concentration of TCs was to be found.

However, the creeping of these lines from July to August, and the subsequent second phase of operations in mid-August are harder to justify, particularly since they took place during a time of negotiations, which the Turkish government broke off to conduct the operation that resulted in their grabbing a further 25% of the island. Even as someone who always tries to adopt a view sympathetic to TCs (or at least in equal measure to GCs), I find it hard to wrestle with my conscience and see the justification in that phase - even more so because there appeared to be a deliberate policy of grabbing the most economically important areas of the island.

In regard to the continued presence of Turkish troops, I can understand why they remain, but why they remain in such huge numbers is also an enigma to me. My understanding of the GC mentality is such that I can see they have no intention of striking north, nor would they have the capability to do so, nor would it be of benefit to their cause domestically or internationally.

In a similar light, my understanding of the Turkish and TC mentality is that the Turkish troops remain to deter such an attack, they also have no intention of striking south. Therefore, if the troops remain in a purely defensive capacity, it's a bit odd that it requires 40,000 heavily armed troops to defend 1,000 sq. miles of land - that's one heck of a troop concentration.

So their purpose in such numbers remains rather ambiguous and an unnecessary drain on Turkey's military resources, and also provides capital to GC politicians who argue that Turkey is an occupying power bent on the destruction of the RoC. Furthermore, it gives credence to the arguments of GC militants to maintain high military spending and the import of advanced weapons systems which just add to the concentration of dangerous military resources on the island.

As for the maintenance of peace being down to the Turkish troops, initially yes, I think you can claim that. But Cyprus has now settled into a more 'natural' and stable peace (or 'unnatural' depending on your position), which isn't a consequence of soldiers on the lines today, but is a consequence of the division having given a lot of people 'thinking time', which has reduced the level of militancy significantly.

The opening of the line has proved that on a day-to-day basis, GC and TC can interact in peace, which is a first step to bringing the barriers down. It's only going to work if it's done incrementally, simply opening up the borders and allowing a free mixing of the two communities can only spark tension in the short term.

If the whole process is slowed down and the barriers between the two communities removed gradually, then I think you'll see a solution that works. Whatever happens, both Greek and Turkish soldiers have to be removed from the island whatever happens, otherwise trust will always be subject to the barrels of foreign guns.
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Postby Leon » Sat Jul 09, 2005 5:23 pm

I didn't realise that so many troops were there! I've never been to northern Cyprus (although I will visit Kyrenia at some point during my holiday this year (I fly tomorrow :D!)), my mother (who has been) has told me numerous times that there is army camp after army camp after army camp and the amount of times you see them is ridiculously high, so I'll look out for that when I go (not that I can miss it by the sounds of it!).

I also fully agree with you, cannedmoose, about the 'gradual' occupation of more areas in Cyprus during negotiations to solve the problem. I didn't know this, I seemed to think that it just happened in order to save the Turkish-Cypriots and it was one invasion. I didn't know about the negotiations either. Now I see why people hate this so much and protest against it.

Thanks,
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Postby cannedmoose » Sat Jul 09, 2005 5:32 pm

Leon wrote:I didn't realise that so many troops were there! I've never been to northern Cyprus (although I will visit Kyrenia at some point during my holiday this year (I fly tomorrow :D!)), my mother (who has been) has told me numerous times that there is army camp after army camp after army camp and the amount of times you see them is ridiculously high, so I'll look out for that when I go (not that I can miss it by the sounds of it!).


Have a good trip Leon. I have to say that in my trips to the north, I've only rarely stumbled across army encampments, I certainly wouldn't say that they're highly visible right across the country, although to be honest if you don't look, you don't see. If I had gone around looking for a military presence it would be more obvious. To be honest, I've noticed more of an overt military presence south of the buffer zone.
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Postby Leon » Sat Jul 09, 2005 5:45 pm

Efharisto poly :D. I've heard that the people are very kind but it is extremely rare to find a woman walking the streets of town without a man byher side :o :shock: :!:

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Postby cannedmoose » Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:04 pm

Leon wrote:Efharisto poly :D. I've heard that the people are very kind but it is extremely rare to find a woman walking the streets of town without a man byher side :o :shock: :!:

Leon.


IMO you'll find them perfectly hospitable. I think they're a little more blase about GCs and others walking around now, as opposed to the interest they had after the gates opened that little further, but if you get the opportunity to sit and talk with TCs, do so and you'll see just how similar you all are.
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Postby Leon » Sat Jul 09, 2005 8:06 pm

Yeah I've often wondered how similar we are in terms of thinking, behaving etc. But probably because they look different, speak a different language and have a different religion, I just don't consider ourselves the same at all. The only connection I believe we have is the fact we're from Cyprus (forgetting all those years ago; I mean just like in the last 100 years). It may sound awful, but I can't help my feelings. if someone stood me next to a Turkish-Cypriot and said something like "you're the same race" I would disagree because I just simply don't feel it, although it would be different if I was placed next to an English person, or a Greek-Cypriot, and to some extent, a main-land Greek. Anyway that's going a bit off what we were originally talking about. I think I'll like it in northern Cyprus; I've heard that everything hasn't been touched since the fighting between the Greek-Cypriots and the Turkish-Cypriots (i.e. you'll still find half-destroyed hotels and houses) and it's like goin back in time thirty years.

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Postby Viewpoint » Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:31 pm

Leon I think you will very suprised with the north, many GCs were, they expected us to be poverty stricken and were told we did even have shoes on our feet. Quite the oppoiste taking into consieration isolation and only the support of Turkey I think we have done very well. Things could be a lot better but at least we have been trouble free for the last 31 years no inter community clashes.
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Postby city » Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:44 pm

I think viewpoint is right here. I'm an "outsider" to both sides, and being a tourist you can really not see much difference. The people look and behave alike and it doesn't seem to be very differnet from each other. Of course I couldn't take a deep look inside, but I'm sure you will find a lot of similarities! I hope you enjoy your trip!
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Re: Tcs & Illegal turkish occupation

Postby RAFAELLA » Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:47 pm

RAFAELLA wrote:I've been participating in this forum for about 4 months and I realised that Tcs, I won't mention Turks, don't acccept the fact that there is occupation in our country by turkish troops.
Why is it so difficult for Tcs to realise and accept that?

Efharisto :)


Still waiting to hear Tcs' point of view regarding occupation.

I'd also like to add a paragraph from Cuco's report:
"In my conclusions I must also draw attention to the demographic impact of the presence of the Turkish army in the northern part of Cyprus. Even if we take the lowest estimate of a contingent of 30 000 men and a population totaling 180 000 persons, this works out at one soldier per six civilians, a ratio that must be unique in Europe." (COE Parliamentary Assembly 27 April 1992, paras. 105-112)
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Postby brother » Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:58 pm

"In my conclusions I must also draw attention to the demographic impact of the presence of the Turkish army in the northern part of Cyprus. Even if we take the lowest estimate of a contingent of 30 000 men and a population totaling 180 000 persons, this works out at one soldier per six civilians, a ratio that must be unique in Europe." (COE Parliamentary Assembly 27 April 1992, paras. 105-112)
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This is over 13 years old, what is your facination with past documents, can you not find anything more to-date to back up your debate.

TC see the turkish army as intervention/peace operation as it was their back sides on the line, and as such they now see them as the keeper of peace as since they have been there no violence has occured.
While many tc have different opinions about the turkish army being there, the general concensus is that they would rather they left sooner than later but only after a solution.
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