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[Tim Drayton]

I wonder if any speaker of Cypriot Turkish could help me with a point that has been puzzling me. I have spotted what in gramatical terms seems to be an anomoly in the declension of verb forms used with modals.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that obligation in the first and second persons is expressed as follows:

Lüzum gideyim - I must go

Lüzum gidesin - You must go

Now, in standard Turkish there is a form known as the 'istek kipi', which broadly corresponds to the subjunctive mood in Western European languages, and is little used in the modern language except in the first person. The verb 'gitmek' (to go) declines as follows in this mood

gideyim gidelim
gidesin gidesiniz
gide gideler

So, from the data so far presented, the rule for expressing obligation in Cypriot Turkish would appear to be 'lüzum + dilek kipi (subjunctive mood)'. However, this breaks down in the third person, because as far as I know we do not say

Lüzum gide

but

Lüzum gitsin - He must go

(and, again, please correct me if I am wrong).

In terms of standard Turkish grammar, the suffix -sin has a very different function. It is known as the 'buyuru kipi' or 'command mood' and in standard Turkish the form 'gitsin' would mean 'let him/her go'.

In other words, some kind of mutation seems to have taken place in this declension.

Have I got this right? Thanking you in advance for your assistance.

[insan]

I wonder if any speaker of Cypriot Turkish could help me with a point that has been puzzling me. I have spotted what in gramatical terms seems to be an anomoly in the declension of verb forms used with modals.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that obligation in the first and second persons is expressed as follows:

Lüzum gideyim - I must go

Lüzum gidesin - You must go

Now, in standard Turkish there is a form known as the 'istek kipi', which broadly corresponds to the subjunctive mood in Western European languages, and is little used in the modern language except in the first person. The verb 'gitmek' (to go) declines as follows in this mood

gideyim gidelim
gidesin gidesiniz
gide gideler

So, from the data so far presented, the rule for expressing obligation in Cypriot Turkish would appear to be 'lüzum + dilek kipi (subjunctive mood)'. However, this breaks down in the third person, because as far as I know we do not say

Lüzum gide

but

Lüzum gitsin - He must go

(and, again, please correct me if I am wrong).

In terms of standard Turkish grammar, the suffix -sin has a very different function. It is known as the 'buyuru kipi' or 'command mood' and in standard Turkish the form 'gitsin' would mean 'let him/her go'.

In other words, some kind of mutation seems to have taken place in this declension.

Have I got this right? Thanking you in advance for your assistance.

It would be more proper to interprete lüzum as need.

Lüzum gideyim - i need to go(TC Dialect)

Gitmem lazım - i need to go(Modern Turkish Dialect)

Both r used in TC dialect almost in same frequency but Turks never use the TC version.

TC Dialect

gideyim(I) - gidesin(you - singular) - gidesiniz(you-plural)- gitsin(He-She-It) - gitsinler(they) - gidelim(We)


Modern Turkish Dialect

Gitmem(I) - Gitmen(You-singular) - Gitmesi(he-she-it) - Gitmeniz(you-plural) - Gitmeleri(they) - Gitmemiz(We)

[Tim Drayton]

Insan, thank you for the feedback, which raises some further questions in my mind:

1. When you say that both forms are used in the TC dialect, is this not because the TC dialect is gradually dying out and being replaced by the standard language. Would a TC villager have used the form 'gitmem lazım' 50 years ago?

2. You say that 'lüzum' corresponds to the English 'need' rather than 'must'. Is there a way in TC dialect of expressing a stronger obligation as with the English 'you must go' rather than 'you need to go'?

3. How do you make these forms negative? How do you say 'you mustn't go' (i.e. standard Turkish 'gitmemen lazim/gitmemelisin') - negative obligation, and 'you needn't go' (i.e. 'gitmek zorunda değilsin') - lack of obligation.

[denizaksulu]

On your third point:


(Village talk) Lazım/luzum değil gidesing - ıt ıs not essentıal that you go


On your second poınt:

can be: lazım gidesing mutlaka or mutlaka lazım gidesing= ıt ıs essentıal that you (do) go.

For your first point, yes as we oldies die out so will the Modern Turkish take over, just lıke the settlers.

Insan may add variations to the theme.

[insan]

Insan, thank you for the feedback, which raises some further questions in my mind:

1. When you say that both forms are used in the TC dialect, is this not because the TC dialect is gradually dying out and being replaced by the standard language. Would a TC villager have used the form 'gitmem lazım' 50 years ago?

2. You say that 'lüzum' corresponds to the English 'need' rather than 'must'. Is there a way in TC dialect of expressing a stronger obligation as with the English 'you must go' rather than 'you need to go'?

3. How do you make these forms negative? How do you say 'you mustn't go' (i.e. standard Turkish 'gitmemen lazim/gitmemelisin') - negative obligation, and 'you needn't go' (i.e. 'gitmek zorunda değilsin') - lack of obligation.

1- Tim, everything changes with environmental interaction. TC dialect has been under influence of many different cultures throughout the history. Even it still bears the influences of ancient Turkish dialects despite heavily influenced by linguistic forms of Cypriot and British. I don't think it would be replaced with by the standard Turkish but it will naturally continue to interact with other linguistic forms and develop.

2- In TC dialect, interpretations r maintained with accentuation and volume of the voice...

For example:

Lüzum gideyim...(low volume, with a lovely smile on ur face) can be interpreted as I need to go but i actually still have time to go.

LÜZUM GİDEYİM DERİM SAAA MA ANNAMAN!!! I NEED TO GO I TOLD U BUT U DON'T UNDERSTAND ME!!!

In TC dialect, i need to, i ought to, i must, i shall all interpreted same in written texts.

3- Negative forms can be made as u made above but still all r interpreted same in written texts. Only the accentuation changes it's meaning.

Hope I could be helpful, Tim.(TC dialect)

Hope I could have been helpful, Tim.(Turkish dialect that even the most literate TCs don't use this kind of grammatical structure)

[insan]

On your third point:


(Village talk) Lazım/luzum değil gidesing - ıt ıs not essentıal that you go


On your second poınt:

can be: lazım gidesing mutlaka or mutlaka lazım gidesing= ıt ıs essentıal that you (do) go.

For your first point, yes as we oldies die out so will the Modern Turkish take over, just lıke the settlers.

Insan may add variations to the theme.

Yeah, a few examples of negative forums:

Lüzüm gitmeyesin.(TC dialect)

Lüzum değil gidesin.(TC dialect)

Gitmemen lazım.(TC dialect)

Gitmemelisin.(Common with Turkish dialect)

Gitmek zorunda değilsin.(Common with Turkish dialect)

Gitmen gerekmez.(Common with Turkish dialect)

[Tim Drayton]

Thank you for this information.

So,

Lüzüm gitmeyesin is 'you mustn't go', i.e. I am instructing you not to go, and

Lüzum değil gidesin is 'you needn't go', i.e. you can go or stay as you wish.

Is that right?

[denizaksulu]

Thank you for this information.

So,

Lüzüm gitmeyesin is 'you mustn't go', i.e. I am instructing you not to go, and

Lüzum değil gidesin is 'you needn't go', i.e. you can go or stay as you wish.

Is that right?

Ha.

[insan]

Thank you for this information.

So,

Lüzüm gitmeyesin is 'you mustn't go', i.e. I am instructing you not to go, and

Lüzum değil gidesin is 'you needn't go', i.e. you can go or stay as you wish.

Is that right?

Ha.

Gaba adam!

[denizaksulu]

Thank you for this information.

So,

Lüzüm gitmeyesin is 'you mustn't go', i.e. I am instructing you not to go, and

Lüzum değil gidesin is 'you needn't go', i.e. you can go or stay as you wish.

Is that right?

Ha.

Gaba adam!

Ben Timi beklerdim da bana 'haksılos çıkar 'desin

Sen da ortanın 'kel fatti'.

Any idea where that comes from?

kel fatti = busy body (used as denoting a person ....)