Cyprus-Forum.com

[YFred]

You know better than that. You forgot Ercan and proper International aid and investment. You can take all the others back. That shackle. Then I will join you.

[Hermes]

You know better than that. You forgot Ercan and proper International aid and investment. You can take all the others back. That shackle. Then I will join you.

Not possible. The "TRNC" is an illegal state under international law. Everything else follows. When Rauf Denktash declared independence, he knew the consequences. Everyone told him. If he had never done it there wouldn’t be a UN resolution declaring the TRNC illegal because there would be no TRNC.

UN Security Council resolutions prevent other states from offering recognition. There can be no direct flights or foreign investment as it's illegal under international law. There is no way past this. Sorry.

[Jerry]

It would seem that Turkey will "take steps" at lifting isolation and on recognition of trnc if/when the talks fail. Will this be the usual Turkish "diplomatic" means of using tanks and guns or will Erdogan realise that his almost bankrupt country can no longer afford to prop his failed satellite to the south and throw in the towel.

Turkey may change foreign policy regarding Turkish Cyprus by 2010
Turkish foreign policy will probably have a different outlook regarding the Cyprus issue by 2010 if reunification talks on the island fail.

Turkey will certainly face many challenges trying to get the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (KKTC) recognized by other countries.
Speaking at the 64th Session of the UN General Assembly on Thursday, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan said, “A peace plan to unify the island drawn [up] as a result of the second phase of the negotiations should be brought to referendum by spring 2010 before the presidential election in Turkish Cyprus.” Warning about the possibility that Greek Cypriots may fail to accept a peace plan for a second time, Erdoğan implied that Turkey may take steps to lift the economic isolation. “If the Greek Cypriots will not again agree on a peace plan like the 2004 Annan plan to unify the island, then normalizing the status of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus in the international arena will be a must that can no longer be delayed,” Erdoğan warned UN-member countries. Stressing that they can no longer accept protracted problems, Erdoğan said: “It must be understood that negotiations cannot last forever. The present window of opportunity cannot stay open forever, and there is an absolute need to make the process successful.”

This statement appears to be rather a remarkable indication that Turkey will take steps to get the KKTC recognized. Though diplomatic efforts for the recognition of Turkish Cyprus have not visibly increased since the Justice and Development Party (AK Party) came to power in 2002, this is the first time Turkey has explicitly made it obvious that it may launch diplomatic efforts to promote recognition of the KKTC as an independent state since 2004. Northern Cyprus is in an unfavorable position compared to Greek Cyprus, since southern Cyprus is a member of the EU yet northern Cyrus is severely deprived under hefty economic isolation.

Greek Cyprus says solution is far

While meeting with UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, Greek Cypriot leader Dimitris Christofias said the solution of the Cyprus issue is very difficult to accomplish. “Saying no to the 2004 UN plan in Cyprus means saying no to the UN in the peace process,” Mehmet Hasgüler, one of the most prominent experts on Cyprus, said to Sunday's Zaman while evaluating the speech Erdoğan made at the UN General Assembly on Thursday with respect to the recognition of Turkish Cyprus in case a peace plan is rejected by Greek Cyprus in 2010.

“Greek Cyprus was accepted into the EU a week after it rejected the Annan plan,” Hasgüler continued. “A normative assumption held by the EU then was that Turkey and Turkish Cyprus would take steps toward the unification of the island.” Many governments before the ruling AK Party's government had sought to make other countries recognize Turkish Cyprus. However, long-stalled negotiations following the Annan plan referendum in 2004 resumed in September 2008 when the two leaders of both sides of Cyprus decided to meet face to face to discuss the disputed points in the unification of the two parts of the island. The first phase of the negotiations came to an end in August, and a month later, the second phase of the negotiations took off. “Turkey is able to take this local problem to the international level easily. Starting in spring 2010, Turkey may initiate a controlled diplomatic process for Turkish Cyprus' recognition,” Hasgüler said. Listing the difficulties, Hasgüler stated that the United Nations Security Council's Resolution 541 condemning Turkey's land grab in Cyprus in 1983 does not allow any UN member countries to recognize Turkish Cyprus. “Nonetheless, as a permanent member in the Security Council, Russia or China may veto this resolution, and thus countries may start to recognize it,” the expert stated. Hasgüler claimed that if Turkey recognizes Georgia's breakaway regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, then Russia may consider recognizing the KKTC. “If political recognition will not be possible, at least the lifting of economic isolation may be a priority for Turkey. Malaysia, Azerbaijan and some African countries may lead the list in recognizing northern Cyprus if Turkey starts the diplomatic process for it,” Hasgüler said.

No tolerance for second rejection

In May 2004 the rejection by Greek Cyprus of the Annan plan to unify the island steered the process of recognition of Turkish Cyprus reasonably well particularly after Azerbaijan said it would recognize Turkish Cyprus. During his visit to Turkey in early 2004, Azerbaijani President İlham Aliyev said they would recognize the KKTC if Greek Cypriots said no to the Annan plan during the referendum. However, the EU pressured Azerbaijan not to recognize the KKTC, threatening to recognize the self-declared Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, an Azerbaijani territory occupied by Armenia in the early 1990s. “Greece and Greek Cypriots even sent an official letter to the Foreign Ministry, noting that they should immediately abandon the idea of recognizing northern Cyprus. In turn they would recognize Nagorno-Karabakh's independence,” said Vugar Gojayev, then the International Crisis Group coordinator of Azerbaijan. “This is the reason why Azerbaijan prefers to stay neutral in this issue,” he added. Considering Georgia and Azerbaijan have their own issues with breakaway regions, it will be hard for these countries to recognize the KKTC during the initial stage.

In contrast, Turkish Center for International Relations and Strategic Analysis (TÜRKSAM) head Sinan Oğan told Sunday's Zaman: “Russia will not recognize the KKTC. There are nearly 50,000 offshore Russian companies in Greek Cyprus, and these companies comprise 12 percent of southern Cyprus' national income.” Pointing to Greek-Russian relations throughout history, Oğan said, “Greek Cyprus and Greece have cultural and historical ties with Russia, and this will play a role in the recognition of Turkish Cyprus.”

27 September 2009, Sunday

MAHİR ZEYNALOV İSTANBUL


http://www.northcyprus.biz/north_cyprus ... p?FID=9354

[Nikitas]

Erdoghan is obviously underestimating the collective intelligence of the world. The PM of the invading and occupying power warning his victim that the problem he caused is likely to get worse!!!

Worse than what? And worse for who? So what if the TRNC is recognised? Property claims will still be valid, recognition does not alter human rights issues, in fact it makes them stronger because then the defendant in the ECHR will be the regime of the recognised TRNC.

But the biggest problem for Turkey is that by recognition of the north all possible claims of TCs in the RoC are erased, so no more playing the tough guy over oil exploration and the extent of the Cyprus economic zone in the east Mediterranean. The gains for the GCs will be much bigger than the losses. This recognition bogeyman is wearing a little thin after 35 years of de facto partition. The stick has not worked with this donkey, try the carrot and see what happens.

[YFred]

You know better than that. You forgot Ercan and proper International aid and investment. You can take all the others back. That shackle. Then I will join you.

Not possible. The "TRNC" is an illegal state under international law. Everything else follows. When Rauf Denktash declared independence, he knew the consequences. Everyone told him. If he had never done it there wouldn’t be a UN resolution declaring the TRNC illegal because there would be no TRNC.

UN Security Council resolutions prevent other states from offering recognition. There can be no direct flights or foreign investment as it's illegal under international law. There is no way past this. Sorry.

Then I am afraid you will be YFredless at the barricades. Sorry

[insan]

You know better than that. You forgot Ercan and proper International aid and investment. You can take all the others back. That shackle. Then I will join you.

Not possible. The "TRNC" is an illegal state under international law. Everything else follows. When Rauf Denktash declared independence, he knew the consequences. Everyone told him. If he had never done it there wouldn’t be a UN resolution declaring the TRNC illegal because there would be no TRNC.

UN Security Council resolutions prevent other states from offering recognition. There can be no direct flights or foreign investment as it's illegal under international law. There is no way past this. Sorry.

Resolution 1376 (2004)1

Cyprus


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. The Parliamentary Assembly is profoundly disappointed by the failure, following the massive “no” vote by the Greek Cypriot community, of the international community’s efforts to end the division of Cyprus and enable the two Cypriot communities to join the European Union together on 1 May 2004. However, it respects the choice made by the Greek Cypriots and the Turkish Cypriots in separate and simultaneous referenda. It understands that more time may be needed for the Greek Cypriot population to gain confidence and develop trust in the new, more positive attitude of the Turkish Cypriots, and of Turkey.

2. It pays tribute to Mr Kofi Annan, Secretary General of the United Nations, and his colleagues, who have made a tremendous contribution towards achieving a settlement of the Cyprus problem.

3. It pays tribute to the Turkish Cypriots, who supported the Annan Plan by an overwhelming majority, thus opting for a future in Europe. The international community, and in particular the Council of Europe and the European Union, cannot ignore or betray the expressed desire of a majority of Turkish Cypriots for greater openness and should take rapid and appropriate steps to encourage it. The Turkish Cypriots’ international isolation must cease.
4. The Assembly therefore welcomes the support expressed by several European political leaders for financial assistance for the Turkish Cypriots and an easing of the international sanctions against them. The United Nations should also consider whether the resolutions on which the sanctions are based are still justified. 5. The Assembly considers it unfair for the Turkish Cypriot community, which has expressed clear support for a reunited and European Cyprus, to continue to be denied representation in the European political debate. Such continued isolation may help strengthen the positions of those who are opposing a unified Cyprus.

6.The Assembly therefore decides to associate more closely elected representatives of the Turkish Cypriot community in the work of the Parliamentary Assembly and its committees, beyond the framework of Assembly Resolution 1113 (1997) on the situation in Cyprus and integrate them into the Cypriot delegation.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Assembly debate on 29 April 2004 (15th Sitting) (see Doc. 10161, report of the Political Affairs Committee, rapporteur: Mr Eörsi; and Doc. 10164, opinion of the Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights, rapporteur: Mr Jurgens).
Text adopted by the Assembly on 29 April 2004 (15th Sitting).

http://assembly.coe.int/Main.asp?link=/ ... ES1376.htm

It all depends on political stances of majority of UN members. Nothing stays the same... The common interests of UN members will determine the dominant political stance of UN regarding the Cyprus problem...

Nothing is impossible, just like granting legitimacy to the so-called RoC in 1964, in order to keep the politically chaotic Greece in NATO and maintain stability of NATO...

Now it's time for Turkey to play a similar trumpcard like Greece played in 1964.

[YFred]

You know better than that. You forgot Ercan and proper International aid and investment. You can take all the others back. That shackle. Then I will join you.

Not possible. The "TRNC" is an illegal state under international law. Everything else follows. When Rauf Denktash declared independence, he knew the consequences. Everyone told him. If he had never done it there wouldn’t be a UN resolution declaring the TRNC illegal because there would be no TRNC.

UN Security Council resolutions prevent other states from offering recognition. There can be no direct flights or foreign investment as it's illegal under international law. There is no way past this. Sorry.

Resolution 1376 (2004)1

Cyprus


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. The Parliamentary Assembly is profoundly disappointed by the failure, following the massive “no” vote by the Greek Cypriot community, of the international community’s efforts to end the division of Cyprus and enable the two Cypriot communities to join the European Union together on 1 May 2004. However, it respects the choice made by the Greek Cypriots and the Turkish Cypriots in separate and simultaneous referenda. It understands that more time may be needed for the Greek Cypriot population to gain confidence and develop trust in the new, more positive attitude of the Turkish Cypriots, and of Turkey.

2. It pays tribute to Mr Kofi Annan, Secretary General of the United Nations, and his colleagues, who have made a tremendous contribution towards achieving a settlement of the Cyprus problem.

3. It pays tribute to the Turkish Cypriots, who supported the Annan Plan by an overwhelming majority, thus opting for a future in Europe. The international community, and in particular the Council of Europe and the European Union, cannot ignore or betray the expressed desire of a majority of Turkish Cypriots for greater openness and should take rapid and appropriate steps to encourage it. The Turkish Cypriots’ international isolation must cease.
4. The Assembly therefore welcomes the support expressed by several European political leaders for financial assistance for the Turkish Cypriots and an easing of the international sanctions against them. The United Nations should also consider whether the resolutions on which the sanctions are based are still justified. 5. The Assembly considers it unfair for the Turkish Cypriot community, which has expressed clear support for a reunited and European Cyprus, to continue to be denied representation in the European political debate. Such continued isolation may help strengthen the positions of those who are opposing a unified Cyprus.

6.The Assembly therefore decides to associate more closely elected representatives of the Turkish Cypriot community in the work of the Parliamentary Assembly and its committees, beyond the framework of Assembly Resolution 1113 (1997) on the situation in Cyprus and integrate them into the Cypriot delegation.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Assembly debate on 29 April 2004 (15th Sitting) (see Doc. 10161, report of the Political Affairs Committee, rapporteur: Mr Eörsi; and Doc. 10164, opinion of the Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights, rapporteur: Mr Jurgens).
Text adopted by the Assembly on 29 April 2004 (15th Sitting).

http://assembly.coe.int/Main.asp?link=/ ... ES1376.htm

It all depends on political stances of majority of UN members. Nothing stays the same... The common interests of UN members will determine the dominant political stance of UN regarding the Cyprus problem...

Nothing is impossible, just like granting legitimacy to the so-called RoC in 1964, in order to keep the politically chaotic Greece in NATO and maintain stability of NATO...

Now it's time for Turkey to play a similar trumpcard like Greece played in 1964.

Well found Insan. I believe next time they say No, they will reconsider it and they will also agree with.
Plot thickens.

[insan]

You know better than that. You forgot Ercan and proper International aid and investment. You can take all the others back. That shackle. Then I will join you.

Not possible. The "TRNC" is an illegal state under international law. Everything else follows. When Rauf Denktash declared independence, he knew the consequences. Everyone told him. If he had never done it there wouldn’t be a UN resolution declaring the TRNC illegal because there would be no TRNC.

UN Security Council resolutions prevent other states from offering recognition. There can be no direct flights or foreign investment as it's illegal under international law. There is no way past this. Sorry.

Resolution 1376 (2004)1

Cyprus


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. The Parliamentary Assembly is profoundly disappointed by the failure, following the massive “no” vote by the Greek Cypriot community, of the international community’s efforts to end the division of Cyprus and enable the two Cypriot communities to join the European Union together on 1 May 2004. However, it respects the choice made by the Greek Cypriots and the Turkish Cypriots in separate and simultaneous referenda. It understands that more time may be needed for the Greek Cypriot population to gain confidence and develop trust in the new, more positive attitude of the Turkish Cypriots, and of Turkey.

2. It pays tribute to Mr Kofi Annan, Secretary General of the United Nations, and his colleagues, who have made a tremendous contribution towards achieving a settlement of the Cyprus problem.

3. It pays tribute to the Turkish Cypriots, who supported the Annan Plan by an overwhelming majority, thus opting for a future in Europe. The international community, and in particular the Council of Europe and the European Union, cannot ignore or betray the expressed desire of a majority of Turkish Cypriots for greater openness and should take rapid and appropriate steps to encourage it. The Turkish Cypriots’ international isolation must cease.
4. The Assembly therefore welcomes the support expressed by several European political leaders for financial assistance for the Turkish Cypriots and an easing of the international sanctions against them. The United Nations should also consider whether the resolutions on which the sanctions are based are still justified. 5. The Assembly considers it unfair for the Turkish Cypriot community, which has expressed clear support for a reunited and European Cyprus, to continue to be denied representation in the European political debate. Such continued isolation may help strengthen the positions of those who are opposing a unified Cyprus.

6.The Assembly therefore decides to associate more closely elected representatives of the Turkish Cypriot community in the work of the Parliamentary Assembly and its committees, beyond the framework of Assembly Resolution 1113 (1997) on the situation in Cyprus and integrate them into the Cypriot delegation.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Assembly debate on 29 April 2004 (15th Sitting) (see Doc. 10161, report of the Political Affairs Committee, rapporteur: Mr Eörsi; and Doc. 10164, opinion of the Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights, rapporteur: Mr Jurgens).
Text adopted by the Assembly on 29 April 2004 (15th Sitting).

http://assembly.coe.int/Main.asp?link=/ ... ES1376.htm

It all depends on political stances of majority of UN members. Nothing stays the same... The common interests of UN members will determine the dominant political stance of UN regarding the Cyprus problem...

Nothing is impossible, just like granting legitimacy to the so-called RoC in 1964, in order to keep the politically chaotic Greece in NATO and maintain stability of NATO...

Now it's time for Turkey to play a similar trumpcard like Greece played in 1964.

Well found Insan. I believe next time they say No, they will reconsider it and they will also agree with.
Plot thickens.

The game and the plot based on this game is too big, YFred... and that much dangerous... it must be played civilized... otherwise it may even cause a world war... I'm not joking... If the bosses of globalization attempt to exploit the situation with a fait accompli in order to shift the balance of the powers and remove the obstacles in front of globalization; everything may happen and be destructive... maybe for a short while or longer than expected...

[Get Real!]

Turkey is often courted for one thing or the other, but it seems the only thing they ever want her for is to supply troops for NATO’s dirty wars and for her territory to serve as a base!

What the big boys are doing to Turkey is no different to what they’re doing to others like Pakistan, former Iraq, current Libya, and many more.

The idea is to keep them constantly excited and feeling important with empty promises for the future so that they can keep getting their way on the victim’s territory knowing that by the time any of the hollow promises can come to pass 3 governments would’ve changed hands in both countries!

[repulsewarrior]

When the peace movement started and there was only 4 to 5 thousand attending the meeting to open the crossings, YFred clan was well represented but to cut of ties with Turkey as we stand, is suicide and we didn't survive these centuries committing suicide. Shackles off first sir, other wise you have to free us. Sorry.

By "shackles" do you mean how Turkey has in the past prevented Turkish Cypriots from acquiring Cyprus Republic passports, identity cards and other documents, which facilitate travel and other activities in Cyprus and abroad and allow Turkish Cypriots to enjoy EU benefits and consular protection in third countries.

By "shackles" do you mean how low-paid settlers from Turkey pushed Turkish Cypriots out of their own labour market causing much of their relative economic deprivation.

By "shackles" do you mean how Turkey introduced the Turkish lira in the occupied areas in 1983, causing high inflation and other serious economic and social problems and exposed Turkish Cypriots to the problems of the Turkish economy.

By "shackles" do you mean how Turkey has controlled the economy of the north through conditional aid, direct instructions and management, creating an inefficient system.

By "shackles" do you mean how Turkey has since 1980 been behind the rejection by Turkish Cypriot leaders of confidence-building measures, including several on trade, because, although ending the “isolation”, such measures would not promote international recognition.

By "shackles" do you mean how Turkey created the illegal ‘state’ in northern Cyprus that led to European Court of Justice decisions, which have determined restrictions on exports, and which prevents the implementation of the EU acquis.

By "shackles" do you mean how the invitation to the Turkish Cypriot community to join the Cyprus delegation in EU accession negotiations was turned down.

By "shackles" do you mean how the Turkish Cypriot leadership, backed by Ankara, refuses to implement many measures, including parts of the Green Line regulation for political reasons, depriving Turkish Cypriots of significant economic benefits.

By "shackles" do you mean how the Turkish side is holding out for external “direct trade”, an idea not promoted by economic considerations, but as a political goal.

By "shackles" do you mean how the government has always extended to Turkish Cypriots a number of essential services, including free supply of electricity, pensions and social security benefits.

By "shackles" do you mean how the government also proposed and strongly supported the EU financial assistance to benefit Turkish Cypriots. However, there were efforts to attach political stipulations to its release.

By "shackles" do you mean how the substantial increase in economic activity and trade across the ceasefire line since 2003 has helped double the per capita income of Turkish Cypriots in recent years.

By "shackles" do you mean how the government has been better able to provide services to Turkish Cypriots since the partial lifting in 2003 of restrictions imposed by the Turkish side.

By "shackles" do you mean how Turkish Cypriots are now working, in increasing numbers, in the government-controlled areas and enjoy a range of benefits, including free medical care.

By "shackles" do you mean how the T/C economy has benefited from the crossings by Greek Cypriots and foreign tourists to the north.

Oh, those "shackles".

Like I said, I'll see you on the barricades...

...well said, thank-you.

..without the recognition, it seems that Cyprus remains a state to be dismissed by Turkey; it is not only the Republic of Cyprus that is suffering from this denial, it is the Turkish Cypriot which has no identity except what is Kemal (and even this is hijacked, no longer the people's, but part of a "deep state".).

YFred and insan, i suggest to you that there is one State that we can agree on in support of a basic Principal; Bicommunality: In our case at least three governments, two levels of Governance: As Individuals a State, and as Persons having for our representation National Assemblies. Whether Denktash or Makarios is your hero, this is the conclusion that they came to, and since interlocutors have rallied against. Similarly, Bizonal does not mean tearing the island in two, it means the parts having components geographically speaking, communities unified as Communities.

... and tell me what ends the "border" if the "green line" remains, unless communities, at least some, return north and south respectively. What can demonstrate better our own Humanity to ourselves...

enclaves, thusly, can provide to Turcophones, as well as Grecophones, National debate in Assembly which respects its own diversity as well as the special needs of the minorities which live amongst its own majority.

while you may debate for your own National sustenance united against an adversry, there is a wider issue, as People, as this island's stewards; we have a responsibility to Mankind in overcoming our fears, for this Sovereignty, as Cypriots. Being "Greek" or being "Turkish" should not matter, nor the sins of our past, to secure this position; if our aim is to better the Human Condition.