Cyprus-Forum.com

[kurupetos]

What?

[Lordo]

Have you been there?

i have been there several times. lit a candle there for peace. it seems to be havin an affect

[repulsewarrior]

dudes i just stumbled on this topic, sorry i'm late...

...my answer to you is the first question, that is the (fvked up) title to the poll:

if there are Turkish enclaves in the south then it would be possible for Greek enclaves to exist in the north

; are you guys going to tell me that "Bizonal" means tearing the island in two, fait accompli, live with it. or, if you are anything but "Greek" just stuff it. tell me how there is Unity, any respect for Cyprus, its Heritance, when there are other Identities people cling to other than Cypriot? how are we "greeks and turks" to demonstrate a will which makes us great, as Peoples and as a People, to the rest of Humanity; what about Grace?

(please read my manifesto...)

zan, i have not had a reason to find myself there while in England, but even if this gypsy enclave is feared, enclaves themselves are not a dirty word. its meaning is geographic. ironically, without the enclaves, however they were formed in Cyprus, there would not have been a Turkish Cypriot identity politically speaking. either way the Constitution has as a Principal, Bicommunality: meaning, a State where all People as Individuals are Equal, and that there exists representation for the People as Persons too. (presently through a Communal Chamber that remains unused) in the future I/i hope, with two or more National Assemblies, for the consideration of a majority while fulfilling the criteria of a Superior Governance, the island dwellers as a whole, all citizens.
pie in the sky? i think not. futuristic maybe, but realistic compared to the morass of sticking to the script we have right now.



...don't mind me i come from a "mixed" village.

Reh RW bou eese reh?

Suspect you might be right. If these talks lead to a settlement then two largish zones with a patchwork of associated villages in the north and south, under a strong central government of course.

Don't like this word enclave, but this patchwork arrangement does make a partition difficult.

PS. I come from a mixed village as well .... London!

Villages that were homogeneous should be considered as enclaves Greek or Turk cyp...

The central government thingy should also be reconsidered..a federal solution doesn't necessarily insure a strong central government regardless of what's written on a piece of paper...

The villages that have a historical basis to be "returned" should not be judged solely on their "Greekness", or, "Turkishness", but how they will function, in relation to the land which surrounds them, and what they mean as Justice seen. Whether it is Greek Cypriots or Turkish Cypriots returning to their homes, many choices must be made, not just by them, but in many cases by the people who presently live in these dwellings. The settlers, although some will leave, others deserve the respect and recognition to be Free, as Cypriots, their accommodation is important too. A Cypriot fabric, and the creation of many opportunities to add diversity to it, will evolve with the intention, that there is a Cypriot way. Frankly under the guidance of Cypriots as Cypriots, as in a Federal Government, the Standards that we commit ourselves to keep that are Universal in Principal, can be sustained, because as Cypriots, we too are responsible to a higher order, of Man. And, i believe that taxpayers as Persons, as Constituencies (and within them, their components), will do well with their taxes spent by a Government where they can be closer to their own pockets when it comes to providing the services they want in their daily lives, like service in their mother tongue, education for their children, a Civil society. I relish the thought of watching the National Assemblies debate their issues, where as a Constituency, they serve a set of territorial jurisdictions which compete for legislative attention.

...the island's repopulation; to "be" Cypriots again.

This, the genesis of an idea we move closer to, what with the word Bicommunal defined as three governing bodies, there is the word Bizonal to refine.

...i make no apologies for my style of writing in the past, or present, the idea on the other hand is not so hard to understand.

Opening "the border" does not really solve the Problem. Service close by does. Turkish and Greek Constituencies seem natural elements in Cyprus; unnaturally divided as we are is not. Served first in one language or another seems natural, an intolerance to a language's use is not. Respect and recognition toward each other as Persons seems natural because as Individuals, this, is natural. This is the Cypriot way; what seems unnatural to those who cannot see beyond their own dogmas, who call each other "Greeks" and "Turks", who ignore all else in their extremism, for "Greekness" or for "Turkishness" alone. The intention counts. Cyprus is an island rich in its frontiers of mountains, sea, and plains, and in its diversity as Cypriots too, it has a great wealth in History even with so much of it as yet unknown. Let's not forget it's, these peoples' strength, over millennia, as a facilitator for exchange to three continents.

...it is not hard to imagine a population five times bigger in something less than 200 years, cities and towns more cosmopolitan and compacted, and a rural life that is adapting, far more organised to be self sustaining under such geographic and political conditions.

...enclaves is not a dirty word; its notion abused i'll agree, has been sullied.

...how is Justice seen, if not with Greek communities and Turkish communities scattered across the whole island?

[Lordo]

Indeed enclave is not just dirty but disgusting word. There should have been no need of enclaves. It was necessary because the GC Militia attacks on the TCs on the roads and in the fields as well as attacks on villages like Aysozomeno. it was a necessaty to survive.

It has no place in Cyprus now. The GCs or Maronites in the north are not enclaved, they can go where ever they wish. Calling that an enclave is simply not understanding what an enclave is not having lived in one.

[repulsewarrior]

...you are right. Without enclaves there would not have been a Turkish Cypriot constituency; it is as TPap said (sometime before the Problem), as a much younger man, that they were everywhere in Cypriot society, something like sand if it was scattered across the island's map.

...but they do(did) exist, though politically and historically it is hard to tell who they were founded by. And it is up to Cypriots to mitigate the result of having used them for their original intentions. Let's not forget it is a geographic term; as i've said many times before, intentions count. Like enosis it is a word which has been twisted, hijacked if you will, by "Greeks", and "Turks". The words have no meaning in Cyprus but bad, to Cypriots generally, and to Turkish Cypriots in particular. But, it does not mean that they cannot take back the words from "them", with acts that all Cypriots may understand and defend, in their meaning a Cypriot way "they" fear, without violence but in a collective will for more choice, better livings and lives.

...if it were possible to return to 1960 with what we know today, would this island's dwellers have acted differently? "Greeks" and "Turks" would still exist, but Cypriots would not have taken them to be fathers, or brothers; while family their allure would not have been captivating at all.

Enclaves allow for the Green Line to remain, if they are scattered on both sides of it. And, to preserve an Identity quite distinct from Greeks as speakers, (which represent an overwhelming majority by population). No one should expect an enclave to be exclusive, it is the service you will obtain in a language of your choosing that counts, and in either case respectfully whether a part of the majority or not. Enclaves allow for dignity and Grace, some at least, as communities, will signify a return, Justice seen, as communities. Bizonal does not mean two parts (and mutually exclusive to each other), but like Bicommunal, an indivisible whole, which when more closely described is parted in more than one way.

...in my Cyprus, the Maronites as Maronites would exist, and their Territorial Jurisdictions, so too the Armenians, (and the British), with the same kind of self-representation any other Constituency would have at this level of Government.

(again, i ask you to free your mind of the narrative you still suffer, to look beyond to the something more than this.)

...yes, it's safe to say that i did not live in one, but unlike most Cypriots i can say that i have been in one. Galatia was very big in comparison to my village, so close but a world apart. Dusty is what i remember; and, that fear you have: i do know what it is.

...houses, not homes, they had in such conditions. You may remember, i do; we were betrayed by our own nature, now afraid, and now divided, to recall mythic Glories from the past, and few in that regard could speak otherwise, or even more reasonably without in affect risking their lives.

Indeed, to denounce the injustice, it is Justice which needs to be seen. Cypriots who lost their lives wouldn't want it otherwise, an equal and opposite effect, from goodness, and from all of us the living who survive them.

This time, it will not be "Greeks" or "Turks" that may make these enclaves but Cypriots for their benefit, not "theirs".