Cyprus-Forum.com

[insan]

"Then came TMT with the same professional guerilla tactics of EOKA. After abt 8 months lasted TMT activities, Grivas had to accept a cease fire..."

The lies keep getting bigger and bigger. Name one EOKA action which was a mass attack against TCs!

There was not a single one for the simple reason that EOKA was not organized for such actions. EOKA could not move large numbers of people about the island during the state of emergency. TMT could do this because it operated with full immunity from the British.

The first major clashes organized by TMT were in central Nicosia and involved hundreds of armed TCs. Then came the mass attack in Omorfita in which 58 GCs died. And the Guenely attack in which 12 GCs were killed.

These were indicative of what has been euphemestically termed "resistance" in the collective TC mind. Resistance to what? Exactly how were unarmed people under a dusk to dawn curfew causing you to resist them with a mob attack?

If the TMT dudes were fighting EOKA why did they not seek out EOKA hideouts in the mountains and fight them there? Why terrorise the defenceless civilians in central Nicosia?

Because the terror of civlians was the only viable means left for the British and the Turks to neutralise EOKA before it could develop sufficient forces to fight in the towns and cities. It was a simple and crude plan and it worked. It also left accounts to be settled and this happened on December 23 1963. Anyone who denies that 63 was payback for 1958 does not know Cyprus.

Nikitas,

Grivas was not too stupid to target unarmed TCs and directly invite turkish army into Cyprus and I didn't tell anything that EOKA was attacking TCs.

One way or another; short lasted ;TMT activities managed to stop EOKA attacking British targets that among them there were TC police auxiliaries. Grivas had to accept a ceasefire just after abt 8 months lasted TMT activities. Total number of GCs killed by EOKA was more than the number of Brits and TCs killed by EOKA.

If ever EOKA was allowed to finish the Brits and communists then EOKA would have turned it's weapons towards TCs who would have resisted against EOKA and Enosis. It was crystal clear.. Why would anyone had to watch Grivas and EOKA killing everyone who r against Enosis and let him unite Cyprus with Greece.

Just because u don't have a broad perspective to see what's really going on, u label my opinions as lies? How funny u r Nikitas, r u aware?

Now answer me plz... What would have happened if Grivas had managed to kick Brits out and only the communists and TCs had left in Cyprus to resist against EOKA? Tell me... Lies eh?

[Piratis]

Telling u the truth Piratis, as I previously stated in relation with the UN resolution regarding return of displaced Georgian refugees; UN is Divided Nations of self-interested 100 + countries. They act how it suits them.

Even legitimacy of the so-called RoC was a decision taken just to keep then the important ally of US(Greece) in NATO and cooperate with her regarding the politics over Balkans.

If this is your view for the UN then why refer to UN resolutions to claim that TCs are not a minority? In fact no UN resolution says that TCs are not a minority either.

TCs are a minority of just 18%, remnants of the Ottoman rule of Cyprus, in the same way that similar minorities exist in most territories which the former Ottoman empire occupied. No difference at all. (the only difference is that Cyprus was one of the last territories that Ottomans occupied, and therefore the Turks have much shorter history on our island than they have in territories which they occupied much earlier)

The RoC should have never been created in the first place. Cyprus should have been given its freedom from the Imperialists and the Cypriots should have been allowed to freely and democratically decide the destiny of their own island, and unite Cyprus with the rest of Greece. As I have shown this was the legitimate right of the Cypriot people and no current or former Imperialist had the right to deny this from the Cypriot people.

Piratis, if u were the founders of RoC; then TCs would have been a minority in Cyprus but founders of RoC r TCs and GCs. Therefore, TCs cannot be considered as a minority but one of the 2 politically equal entities. Hope u got it.

The real founders of the RoC were not Cypriots at all, so your argument is irrelevant. RoC was created by foreigners who imposed it on the Cypriot people.

What the Cypriot people wanted and had legitimate right for, was union with Greece. This right was denied to the Cypriot people by the foreign Imperialists who wanted to continue to serve their own interests in Cyprus and did not want to allow Cyprus to be free.

Your minority choose to be the pawns of those Imperialists. You sided with them, you attacked us, and since then you became enemies of the Cypriot people. For as long as you collaborate with foreign Imperialists to serve the interests of those foreigners and have unfair gains on our expense you will continue to be our enemies and you will be treated as such.

[Nikitas]

You are entitled to your opinions. Asserting that TMT was resisting EOKA is not an opinion, it is an assertion of a historical fact, that is what I call a lie.

It is your view that TMT was resisting Enosis. It is an opinion not borne out by the actual events. TMT enforced a separation of the two communities at a level which defies any rationalisation of "resistance" as when the TMT stopped GC garbage collectors from entering the TC sector of Nicosia. Suddenly TCs were stopped from shopping in GC shops, and GCs from entering the TC areas. How can these actions be seen as resistance to EOKA?

The more reasonable explanation is that they were parts of a separation strategy at the neighborhood level. Then came that idiotic statement that GC businesses were ok to be in the TC area but GCs could not enter to run them. You can find the relevant references in Markides if you think you need to cross check.

This was not resistance. This was methodical enforcement of Taksim with British help. Without the British none of this could have happened.

As for the EOKA being neutralised by the TMT, that is rubbish. Makarios was allowed to return from exile, and Greece by that time was invited to attend the tripartite talks. This more than anything else neutralised EOKA. Grivas had been outmanouvered by the politicians of his own side and not the TMT. There was no point to continuing the fight for union with Greece when Greece itself was negotiating with the British and the Turks for the future of the island.

But I am glad that we agree that EOKA had not targeted TC civlians. What it might have done if it had been victorious is a question that is irrelevant now.

As for anticommunism, that is a common trait in both EOKA and the TMT which killed its share of TCs. I do not know the numbers but something tells me the TCs were probably as many as the GC civilians killed by TMT.

[Piratis]

Why would anyone had to watch Grivas and EOKA killing everyone who r against Enosis and let him unite Cyprus with Greece.

Who wanted to unite Cyprus with Greece was the vast majority of the Cypriot people. All that was needed for union with Greece was a referendum so that the Cypriot people could peacefully and democratically decide the destiny of their own island in a democratic way. As I have shown many times already "integration into an independent State" was a legitimate option for us, which was denied to us and this is why the Cypriot people REVOLTED against the foreign overlords.

Now answer me plz... What would have happened if Grivas had managed to kick Brits out and only the communists and TCs had left in Cyprus to resist against EOKA? Tell me... Lies eh?

Union with Greece was the aim of the vast majority of Cypriots and that includes the vast majority of Communists. The fact that Grivas and the Communists didn't get along doesn't mean that Enosis was not supported by the communists. AKEL fully supported Enosis.

So if the British were defeated then what would happen is freedom of Cyprus and Cyprus would unite with the rest of Greece.

[insan]

You are entitled to your opinions. Asserting that TMT was resisting EOKA is not an opinion, it is an assertion of a historical fact, that is what I call a lie.

It is your view that TMT was resisting Enosis. It is an opinion not borne out by the actual events. TMT enforced a separation of the two communities at a level which defies any rationalisation of "resistance" as when the TMT stopped GC garbage collectors from entering the TC sector of Nicosia. Suddenly TCs were stopped from shopping in GC shops, and GCs from entering the TC areas. How can these actions be seen as resistance to EOKA?

The more reasonable explanation is that they were parts of a separation strategy at the neighborhood level. Then came that idiotic statement that GC businesses were ok to be in the TC area but GCs could not enter to run them. You can find the relevant references in Markides if you think you need to cross check.

This was not resistance. This was methodical enforcement of Taksim with British help. Without the British none of this could have happened.

As for the EOKA being neutralised by the TMT, that is rubbish. Makarios was allowed to return from exile, and Greece by that time was invited to attend the tripartite talks. This more than anything else neutralised EOKA. Grivas had been outmanouvered by the politicians of his own side and not the TMT. There was no point to continuing the fight for union with Greece when Greece itself was negotiating with the British and the Turks for the future of the island.

But I am glad that we agree that EOKA had not targeted TC civlians. What it might have done if it had been victorious is a question that is irrelevant now.
As for anticommunism, that is a common trait in both EOKA and the TMT which killed its share of TCs. I do not know the numbers but something tells me the TCs were probably as many as the GC civilians killed by TMT.

It is relevant Nikitas... Neither the then political conjuncture nor the ethnic structure of Cyprus was suitable for a political union with Greece. Although Grivas was a very good guerilla fighter and an excellent propagandist; he was too stupid not to see that he would have failed in the end. A hitler minded man: Grivas.

Now I wanna question how would have been the political, social and economical evolution/development of Cyprus; had the Rad Cliff proposals accepted by Greece and GC leadership... Any ideas?

[denizaksulu]

Insan, can you find the articles on the Kophinou Incidents. I would be grateful.

I have heard first hand accounts of IB, I'd like to see his own accounts.

[Nikitas]

here is an excerpt from my reading on the Radcliffe plan: ""when the international and strategic situation permits and provided that self- government is working satisfactorily." This statement also referred to partition as one of the options which must be available when self- determination is applied."

In effect this was the original system applied by the British before 1930 and not anything really new. The two communities would be allowed to participate in the legislative process so far as it concerned local matters. Britain would be the real government for everything else.

It is interesting to ponder partition from the British point of view and see how they would like it if, for instance, English people owning property in Scotland were forced to sell their land and move to England.

Whatever the ifs now the situation has two new dynamics- EU membership and participation in the Council of Europe with its provisions for human rights. Now it is possible to have a bizonal system because individual human rights are guaranteed by those two new factors, provided we let them.

But you got to admit, the TCs have managed to gain partition, having built an ethnically clean Turkish area on the island, whereas the GCs have anything but a pure Greek state in the south. Even Greece itself now is a multicultural country with more than 10 per cent of its population being of a foreign nationals.

[insan]

Insan, can you find the articles on the Kophinou Incidents. I would be grateful.

I have heard first hand accounts of IB, I'd like to see his own accounts.

Here it is Dengiz. Who is IB btw?

BRITAIN AND THE 1960 CYPRUS ACCORDS: A STUDY IN PRAGMATISM

MICHAEL MORAN

In April, 1967, the military junta had taken over in Greece, and on June 27the Greek Cypriot deputies passed a celebrated, and highly provocative,resolution declaring that the struggle for enosis would continue ‘despiteany adverse circumstances’. As if to prove their point, the Greek Cypriotslaunched a devastating assault on the Turkish Cypriot village of Kophinou(Gecitkale) and on the Turkish inhabitants of a nearby village, both in theLarnaca District. This was in mid–November, 1967. The attack was ledby the Greek General (formerly Colonel) Grivas, already well–known tothe British through his EOKA terrorist campaign against them in the late1 950s.The Kophinou incident created a major international crisis. Greece andTurkey were saved from war only by American intervention and intenseshuttle diplomacy by former Secretary of State Cyrus Vance. Makarios wasmade to agree to cease hostilities and, at Turkey’s insistence, to return toGreece both Grivas and a large contingent of Greek officers and men (about10,000). These were personnel the Archbishop had, since 1964 (at about thetime his ‘national guard’ was formed), clandestinely smuggled into Cyprus.It was later revealed that in April, 1964, Makarios had made a secret pact with the then Greek Premier, George Papandreou, to receive into Cyprusabout 20,000 Greek mainland soldiers and large quantities of weapons and ammunition. In this way, Makarios had apparently believed, it wouldbe possible to prevent any intervention by Turkey while he continued to massacre Turkish Cypriots, thus consolidating his aim of making Cyprus Greek. (Precisely as the Turkish Cypriots had feared, after the passing of UN Security Council resolution 186).

http://www.gpotcenter.org/dosyalar/Britain.pdf

http://books.google.com.tr/books?id=SpF ... q=&f=false

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 08,00.html

[denizaksulu]

Insan, can you find the articles on the Kophinou Incidents. I would be grateful.

I have heard first hand accounts of IB, I'd like to see his own accounts.

Here it is Dengiz. Who is IB btw?

BRITAIN AND THE 1960 CYPRUS ACCORDS: A STUDY IN PRAGMATISM

MICHAEL MORAN

In April, 1967, the military junta had taken over in Greece, and on June 27the Greek Cypriot deputies passed a celebrated, and highly provocative,resolution declaring that the struggle for enosis would continue ‘despiteany adverse circumstances’. As if to prove their point, the Greek Cypriotslaunched a devastating assault on the Turkish Cypriot village of Kophinou(Gecitkale) and on the Turkish inhabitants of a nearby village, both in theLarnaca District. This was in mid–November, 1967. The attack was ledby the Greek General (formerly Colonel) Grivas, already well–known tothe British through his EOKA terrorist campaign against them in the late1 950s.The Kophinou incident created a major international crisis. Greece andTurkey were saved from war only by American intervention and intenseshuttle diplomacy by former Secretary of State Cyrus Vance. Makarios wasmade to agree to cease hostilities and, at Turkey’s insistence, to return toGreece both Grivas and a large contingent of Greek officers and men (about10,000). These were personnel the Archbishop had, since 1964 (at about thetime his ‘national guard’ was formed), clandestinely smuggled into Cyprus.It was later revealed that in April, 1964, Makarios had made a secret pact with the then Greek Premier, George Papandreou, to receive into Cyprusabout 20,000 Greek mainland soldiers and large quantities of weapons and ammunition. In this way, Makarios had apparently believed, it wouldbe possible to prevent any intervention by Turkey while he continued to massacre Turkish Cypriots, thus consolidating his aim of making Cyprus Greek. (Precisely as the Turkish Cypriots had feared, after the passing of UN Security Council resolution 186).

http://www.gpotcenter.org/dosyalar/Britain.pdf

http://books.google.com.tr/books?id=SpF ... q=&f=false

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 08,00.html

IB= Ismail Bozkurt.

I thought the next article would be from his memoirs of the Kphinou incident. I heard from Kophiniot cousins that it was he who caused the events that led to the civilians killed at the surrender to Grvas forces. He was in charge of the joint mucahit's of Aytotoro and Kophinou. I was trying to find the truth of what hapenned exactly. No two accounts agree.

[insan]

here is an excerpt from my reading on the Radcliffe plan: ""when the international and strategic situation permits and provided that self- government is working satisfactorily." This statement also referred to partition as one of the options which must be available when self- determination is applied."

In effect this was the original system applied by the British before 1930 and not anything really new. The two communities would be allowed to participate in the legislative process so far as it concerned local matters. Britain would be the real government for everything else.

It is interesting to ponder partition from the British point of view and see how they would like it if, for instance, English people owning property in Scotland were forced to sell their land and move to England.

Whatever the ifs now the situation has two new dynamics- EU membership and participation in the Council of Europe with its provisions for human rights. Now it is possible to have a bizonal system because individual human rights are guaranteed by those two new factors, provided we let them.

But you got to admit, the TCs have managed to gain partition, having built an ethnically clean Turkish area on the island, whereas the GCs have anything but a pure Greek state in the south. Even Greece itself now is a multicultural country with more than 10 per cent of its population being of a foreign nationals.

It all seems to me Grivas fault... I sometimes wonder what would have happened, had there been no person like Grivas... and then the Greek politicans acted in responsibilities of being a NATO member...

If Turkey and TCs hadn't considered Greece/GCs as a threat towards their national security and national interests; they wouldn't seek partition of Cyprus. As an ally(though a so-called ally of Turkey) Greece besides GCs should have respected the concerns of Turkey and TCs.

Cyprus is not where Scotland is located... comparing Cyprus with Scotland is irrelevant.

Imo, the struggle of Greece and GC leadership have never left any other alternatives than partition for TCs and Turkey.

Accepting minority status in a Greek/GC ruled Cyprus could never be an alternative for TCs and Turkey.

Greek and GC leadership exerted for it for more than 100 years but failed... They have still been exerting for it... Let's see what awaits us in near future...