Cyprus-Forum.com

[insan]

Any solution plan that wouldn't kick Turks and Brits out; make sole rulers of Cyprus Greek and GCs was very far from being satisfactory for themselves. This is crystal clear to me.

Bollocks. We had no problem with the Turkish ethnic minority to remain on our island in the same way that Turkish minorities exist in Greek mainland or Bulgaria, and in the same way that Greek minorities exist in Turkey.

But of course you wanted a lot more for your minority in Cyprus than what you give to our minorities in Turkey, didn't you?

And the reason is what you said in your post earlier: "geo-political interests" of UK and Turkey. So don't try to justify your demands and actions.

What we asked for was 100% legitimate, and you used brute force and blackmail in order to deprive us from our rights so that UK and Turkey could serve their geo-political interests and your minority could get gains on our expense as a reward for the help you gave to the Imperialists to keep our island enslaved.

UN resolutions don't refer TC community as a minority living in Cyprus. Get used with it Piratis or keep bumbling nonsense.

So you accept UN resolutions?

Yes. Don't try to copy-paste them here because all call upon all concerned parties to do this or that except the one related with proclamation of TRNC.

Those were the times when TC leadership and Turkey lost the trust and belief towards UN. TRNC was proclaimed under those circumstance and as long as Cyprus problem not solved will stay there.

[bill cobbett]

Wasn't there a predecessor body to Tnucland, again an illegal, same proclaimed one, a couple of years earlier?

Now, what was that called?

[insan]

Wasn't there a predecessor body to Tnucland, again an illegal, same proclaimed one, a couple of years earlier?

Now, what was that called?

KTFD(Kıbrıs Türk Federe Devleti) - Turkish Federeted State of Cyprus. I don't remember any UN resolutions abt it.

[Piratis]

Any solution plan that wouldn't kick Turks and Brits out; make sole rulers of Cyprus Greek and GCs was very far from being satisfactory for themselves. This is crystal clear to me.

Bollocks. We had no problem with the Turkish ethnic minority to remain on our island in the same way that Turkish minorities exist in Greek mainland or Bulgaria, and in the same way that Greek minorities exist in Turkey.

But of course you wanted a lot more for your minority in Cyprus than what you give to our minorities in Turkey, didn't you?

And the reason is what you said in your post earlier: "geo-political interests" of UK and Turkey. So don't try to justify your demands and actions.

What we asked for was 100% legitimate, and you used brute force and blackmail in order to deprive us from our rights so that UK and Turkey could serve their geo-political interests and your minority could get gains on our expense as a reward for the help you gave to the Imperialists to keep our island enslaved.

UN resolutions don't refer TC community as a minority living in Cyprus. Get used with it Piratis or keep bumbling nonsense.

So you accept UN resolutions?

Yes. Don't try to copy-paste them here because all call upon all concerned parties to do this or that except the one related with proclamation of TRNC.

Those were the times when TC leadership and Turkey lost the trust and belief towards UN. TRNC was proclaimed under those circumstance and as long as Cyprus problem not solved will stay there.

So do you accept the UN resolutions or you "lost the trust and belief towards UN"? Which one is it?

[insan]

Telling u the truth Piratis, as I previously stated in relation with the UN resolution regarding return of displaced Georgian refugees; UN is Divided Nations of self-interested 100 + countries. They act how it suits them.

Even legitimacy of the so-called RoC was a decision taken just to keep then the important ally of US(Greece) in NATO and cooperate with her regarding the politics over Balkans.

[Piratis]

Telling u the truth Piratis, as I previously stated in relation with the UN resolution regarding return of displaced Georgian refugees; UN is Divided Nations of self-interested 100 + countries. They act how it suits them.

Even legitimacy of the so-called RoC was a decision taken just to keep then the important ally of US(Greece) in NATO and cooperate with her regarding the politics over Balkans.

If this is your view for the UN then why refer to UN resolutions to claim that TCs are not a minority? In fact no UN resolution says that TCs are not a minority either.

TCs are a minority of just 18%, remnants of the Ottoman rule of Cyprus, in the same way that similar minorities exist in most territories which the former Ottoman empire occupied. No difference at all. (the only difference is that Cyprus was one of the last territories that Ottomans occupied, and therefore the Turks have much shorter history on our island than they have in territories which they occupied much earlier)

The RoC should have never been created in the first place. Cyprus should have been given its freedom from the Imperialists and the Cypriots should have been allowed to freely and democratically decide the destiny of their own island, and unite Cyprus with the rest of Greece. As I have shown this was the legitimate right of the Cypriot people and no current or former Imperialist had the right to deny this from the Cypriot people.

[insan]

Telling u the truth Piratis, as I previously stated in relation with the UN resolution regarding return of displaced Georgian refugees; UN is Divided Nations of self-interested 100 + countries. They act how it suits them.

Even legitimacy of the so-called RoC was a decision taken just to keep then the important ally of US(Greece) in NATO and cooperate with her regarding the politics over Balkans.

If this is your view for the UN then why refer to UN resolutions to claim that TCs are not a minority? In fact no UN resolution says that TCs are not a minority either.

TCs are a minority of just 18%, remnants of the Ottoman rule of Cyprus, in the same way that similar minorities exist in most territories which the former Ottoman empire occupied. No difference at all. (the only difference is that Cyprus was one of the last territories that Ottomans occupied, and therefore the Turks have much shorter history on our island than they have in territories which they occupied much earlier)

The RoC should have never been created in the first place. Cyprus should have been given its freedom from the Imperialists and the Cypriots should have been allowed to freely and democratically decide the destiny of their own island, and unite Cyprus with the rest of Greece. As I have shown this was the legitimate right of the Cypriot people and no current or former Imperialist had the right to deny this from the Cypriot people.

Piratis, if u were the founders of RoC; then TCs would have been a minority in Cyprus but founders of RoC r TCs and GCs. Therefore, TCs cannot be considered as a minority but one of the 2 politically equal entities. Hope u got it.

[denizaksulu]

The article posted by Tim sums up the facts about that decade and the reasons why the conflict started. Nobody denies that during the inter-communal conflict the GCs gave as much as they took, but also nobody can convincingly deny what caused and who started the conflicts. The fact is that the foreign Imperialists (first British, then Turks) used the TC minority on the island turning them against the majority in order to apply their usual divide and rule tactics that would allow them to maintain troops and control over parts of our island.

When they fail to blame GCs for starting the conflict, some people like Zan come and say something in the lines of "GCs wanted Enosis, so everything we did was justified".

What Zan forgets is that a territory under Colonial rule had every right for self-determination and one of the perfectly legitimate options to choose from is "integration into an independent State"
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

Being part of the Greek Republic would violate none of the human or other rights of the TC minority in Cyprus. How could it be OK for Cyprus to be part of some foreign empire (British, Ottoman etc) imposed on Cypriots by force and with Cypriots being mere subjects of this foreign empire, and not OK for Cyprus to be part of a Republic which Cypriots themeslves democratically choose to belong and where Cypriots would be equal citizens?

Of course it is perfectly OK which is why it was a legitimate right of the Cypriot people. GCs, TCs and all other Cypriots would continue to live in Cyprus like before, but this time instead of being part of some British or Ottoman empire we would be part of the Republic of Greece.

Zan now is trying to tell us that because we dared to demand our legitimate right they were excused to collaborate with the foreign Imperialists, attack us and start the inter-communal conflict and demand that we should be annihilated from half of our island to make place for some artificially created "Turkish State" created on land stolen from us. All these CRIMES are justified according to Zan because we dared to ask for our legitimate rights! And remember, all these happened in the 1950s and they were the reason of the conflict.

Zan reminds me of those Ottomans who also found it "justified" to attack and murder innocent Cypriots just because those Cypriots dared to ask for their freedom.

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821.

You can all imagine the "Ottoman Zan" of that time saying something like "Ok, we killed them. But it is their fault because they wanted ENOSIS. We had no other option"

"Ensois" is not a crime or a dirty word Zan. It was a legitimate right which has been denied to us by foreign Imperialists who used you as their puppets to get what they want from our island.

Pratis,

You keep on referring to the 1821 Insurrection/war of independence, and the executons of the bishops etc in Cyprus. As far as the Ottoman authorities were concerned, the Cypriots executed were subjects of the Ottomans, hence Ottomans themselves, and had behaved in a treasonous manner by arranging the sending monies, arms and men. That was the punishment for treason. Has they minded their own business.............things would be different. It was pan-Hellenism that caused their death. Its the same as some GC forumers calling TC's traitorous to the Cyprus Republic because they did not fight against the Turkish Army in 1974.

Get a life and be careful when posting repetitious rubish.

Nothing to do with Kavaoglu's article btw.

So Cyprus is not the the business of Cypriots but the business of some foreign rulers? And today, 2009, you still believe that it is OK for people to be subjects of some foreign empire and that those foreigners have the right to punish the Cypriot people for daring to ask for their freedom?

Have you not heard of things like Human Rights, Decolonization and all the principles on which the UN was founded?

1821 or 1958 or 2009, for some of you is all the same apparently. If you don't change that Ottoman mentality then there will not be a solution. Cyprus is our business and we have every right to decide the destiny of our own island in a democratic way. Turkey, Britain and any other foreign oppressors should have absolutely no say in our island. You can be equal citizens with the 100% of your human and democratic rights and your ethnic minority can get what every other ethnic minority in every other democratic country gets. Nothing more and nothing less. This is the one and only solution and we are going to fight for it for as long as it takes because we are not going to accept to be subjects of any foreigners in the 21st century!

Pratis,

The current Cyprus prob has fuck all to do with 1821. You are the one continually bringing it up like vomit. Its your mentality that is driving good TC's awa fromunification. Shame on you for continually bringing up Ottoman history - good or bad.

[insan]

Isn't it strange that Kavazoğlu didn't mention just a single word abt EOKA that was just another secret organization funded by Americans? By not mentioning just a single word abt EOKA and it's activities; he made his article sound as written by a pro-EOKA journalist/spy?

It seems like Kavazoğlu ignored the activities of EOKA bcz he thought EOKA had nothing to do with the formation of TMT. Do u agree with Kavazoğlu that EOKA has no role on foundation of TMT and it's activities?

I'll go step by step... there r a lot of other aspects of theis article I'd like to question.

One factor to bear in mind is that Kavazoğlu, as a member of the AKEL cnetral committee, had to toe the party line in everything he said and wrote. It is unfortunate that AKEL made some grave errors and adopted some questionable positions which alienated Turkish Cypriots from it. I think that if at the time there had been a powerful bicommunal left-wing organisation on the ground with strong representation in the Turkish Cypriot community, the fascist TMT would have faced a stiffer task in imposing dictatotiral rule over the community. Let us not forget, though, that one of the first targets of the TMT was the trade union movement, probably the one area in Cyprus in which there existed genuine bicommunal solidarity. As you know, following the attempted assasination of Ahmet Sadi and the successful assisination of Fazıl Önder in 1958, Turkish Cypriots were coerced through a campaign of terror into resigning from the PEO trade union movement. The TMT knew that it had to destroy this kind of bicommunal solidarity if it was to achieve its long term goals.

What were those grave errors made by AKEL, Tim? we need to take into account the then circumstance, Tim. Majority of Cyprus population had been living in rural areas that most of them even hadn't have electricity infrastructure. I don't have any official statistical data regarding the literacy rate of the then Cypriots but I don't think the literacy rate was even over the mid rate.

Furthermore, then there was 2 political trends had taken whole world under it's control and heavy influence... People were either in one group or other... Communists and capitalists; leftists and rightists....

There were so many people in AKEL too, that wished Enosis... perhaps owerwhelming majority of factious men of AKEL.

Under such a political climate, AKEL executives who were perhaps the most literate persons of AKEL; could not defend the independent Cyprus thesis. Though an independent Cyprus under communist regime would have led Cyprus to become just another "satelite" of imperialist USSR.

Anyway, under such political circumstances that AKEL inevitably become officially supporting Enosis; what's the meaning for TCs to stay in AKEL founded trade unions? As long as they stayed in those pro-Enosis trade unions, they would have been considered "pro-Enosis", "traitor", communist TCs; targeted by TMT and hated by all average TCs who were against Enosis. I tend to believe this was the main reason why TMT targeted and assassinated some TC trade unionists.

He held the leaders of the two communities responsible for the events of 1963-64 and he knew very well that it was difficult to live in peace on an island where blood had been shed. He also knew well that the Enosis policy of the Greek Cypriot Leadership was nothing more than supporting the idea of division. His expectations from AKEL were deep regarding this very issue. Tell the Greek Cypriot community the truth and drive them away from the Enosis policy! Otherwise he felt that the future of the Republic of Cyprus would be very dark.

Unfortunately AKEL’s attitude did not meet Kavazoglu’s expectations as the Party insisted on its own self-determination/Enosis decision and whilst doing so left Dervis Ali in a difficult situation. What Kavazoglu said to Vanezos makes clear the tragic situation that he had been dragged into: “Vanezos, I will carry on with this fight as I have been doing so up until this moment. (...) However AKEL’s Enosis policy is not helping me the least bit and puts me in a difficult situation. (...) How can I help build a Turkish-Greek Cypriot friendship as a member of AKEL? What can I say to the Turkish Cypriots that have cooperated with me about the AKEL Enosis policy, what will I say?” These lines clearly explain the tragic situation that Kavazoglu found himself trapped in.

Soon Kavazoğlu became a Don Xiote, "traitor", lonely TC communist, an embarassed AKEL member... The only way for his survival was to escape to a communist country or London as he escaped in 1958... however he prefered to stay in Cyprus; GC dominated areas, chased by both EOKA(the national front) and TMT...

With the article u translated in this thread, he obviously created a pro-EOKA, Enosist impression... Did some AKEL executives force him to write that article?
I don't believe as regard to Cyprus independence and bright future of Cypriot people his only problem was with Denktash, TMT and imperiaslists... In 1964 when he wrote that article, he had problems with GC national Front, Makarios and even AKEL.

He prefered only to harshly critisize Denktash, TMT and imperialists... Why? Had he been balanced, perhaps he wouldn't have been assassinated by TMT... Though still it hasn't been proved that he was assassinated by TMT.

All of your points make sense to me.

One has to remember that this article appeared in a communist party journal in Bulgaria at a time when this country was under Stalinist rule. This was a time of strict censorship there and the contents of the article would also have had to conform to the official party line there.

I only felt that this article was of interest in the way that it attempts to analyse the wiser political consequences of the imposition of TMT rule on the TC community.

I was told by someone who claims to have known Kavazoğlu personally that in private he was very critical of the direction being taken by AKEL on thing like the national question, but as a loyal party member he never made these qualms known in public. This is only heresay, but it tallys with what you have said above.

Before the formation of TMT, there had been several attempts of TCs getting organized under several organizations and fight against Enosis:

Kara Çete, 9 Eylül Cephesi and Volkan r the ones I know formed by pure TCs. They didn't have any guerilla training, they didn't have contemporary weapons... They all failed to lead a counter-struggle against EOKA and Enosists.

After 3 years the formation of EOKA and it's continueing activities in Cyprus with colloboration and cooperation of some Turkish militay personel, Right winged Turkish leadership formed TMT and began organizing TCs towards it's goal that was partition.

What alternatively could TC leadership or TC community do under the circumstances of late 50s and mid-60s?

It seems to me that everything had gone in perfect correlation of then the circumstances.

Was it just a chain of random events, each one causing the next, or was some kind of master plan or conspiracy behind it all? This is the fundamental question I ask myself and do not know the answer. I really appreciate this input from people like you with first-hand experience of events which helps me to better understand what went on.

I will redirect u some articles in Turkish that confirms my opinions abt formation of TMT:

http://www.kibrisgazetesi.com/index.php ... /Ana_sayfa

written by an ex-TMT member; now a journalist.

http://www.kibrisgazetesi.com/printa.ph ... 8&art=3895

In this article the same journalist A Tolgay make refference to a fierce opposition between Kara Çete and Volkan but does not mention anything abt the reasons behind this fierce opposition.

http://www.stwing.upenn.edu/~durduran/h ... _2006.html

An ex-Volkan member tells what he knows abt Volkan and it's activities. Here again, it confirms my opinions abt those TC resistance organizations.


http://www.yeniduzengazetesi.com/haber_ ... &print=yes

An ex-TMT man İsmail Bozkurt talks abt his memoirs.

The full story from 1954 to 1960 which u can reach by following the below link also confirms my opinions regarding the formation and activities of early TC resistance organizations.

CYPRUS 1954-1959
SGM Herbert A. Friedman (Ret.) and Brigadier General Ioannis Paschalidis

http://www.psywarrior.com/cyprus.html

Tim u will laugh a lot when u read the funny, amateurish first Volkan leaflet.


Now another question may spring to our minds...

Why did the formation of TMT, the first serious TC resitance organization take so long to be established?

1) TCs had already been struggling against EOKA and Enosis in British police auxiliaries. In the begining there was no need to form an EOKA alike TC organization... and maybe existence of similar organization would have caused more blood shed...

2) There was a possibility of GCs accepting Rad Cliff Plan in 1956 and later Mc Millan Plan in 1957. However none of these plans were accepted by then the Greek and GC leaderships. EOKA kept attacking British targets... Then came TMT with the same professional guerilla tactics of EOKA. After abt 8 months lasted TMT activities, Grivas had to accept a cease fire...

[Nikitas]

"Then came TMT with the same professional guerilla tactics of EOKA. After abt 8 months lasted TMT activities, Grivas had to accept a cease fire..."

The lies keep getting bigger and bigger. Name one EOKA action which was a mass attack against TCs!

There was not a single one for the simple reason that EOKA was not organized for such actions. EOKA could not move large numbers of people about the island during the state of emergency. TMT could do this because it operated with full immunity from the British.

The first major clashes organized by TMT were in central Nicosia and involved hundreds of armed TCs. Then came the mass attack in Omorfita in which 58 GCs died. And the Guenely attack in which 12 GCs were killed.

These were indicative of what has been euphemestically termed "resistance" in the collective TC mind. Resistance to what? Exactly how were unarmed people under a dusk to dawn curfew causing you to resist them with a mob attack?

If the TMT dudes were fighting EOKA why did they not seek out EOKA hideouts in the mountains and fight them there? Why terrorise the defenceless civilians in central Nicosia?

Because the terror of civlians was the only viable means left for the British and the Turks to neutralise EOKA before it could develop sufficient forces to fight in the towns and cities. It was a simple and crude plan and it worked. It also left accounts to be settled and this happened on December 23 1963. Anyone who denies that 63 was payback for 1958 does not know Cyprus.