Cyprus-Forum.com

[wyoming cowboy]

why make it easy for you

if there is god then why he/she with all his/her great powers reveal him self to us.. so we can all follow him /her and believe..! may be there is no god ! may be our whole existance doesnt mean anything and there is no point trying hard to understand, seek the truth and the meaning behind our existance! may be there is no meaning ! may be we just wasting our time because the idea of believing in something is comforting, to be able to pray knowing that your not alone and god is listining to you.. and if there is no god or the ultimate power what ever you wanna call it then who made us, or who made the materials that we are made from!! and if there was god did god came out of no where, doesnt god have a creator!!!! ,, i was tought that Allah is the only god, he is the answers for our questions and Allah wants us not to question him and just follow him but... Allah is just another name for that so called power... !! and we as intelligance race question the unknown to get answers!! after years of blind believing i figured out its not worth it! believing it doesnt change a thing in the world and it doesnt effect my life..!!

[Get Real!]

Theres too much design involved in the universe for there not to be a God. It's like finding a watch on the floor and claiming it just ''happened'' out of nowhere.

So who designed the designer?

Coco Chanel!

I don't think it would work like that. If God created us this way, it doesn't mean God would also be like that...

You wouldn't expect God to have hair, nails or have to eat food and pass waste, so why expect God to be given birth to?

But "God" would have to exist to create the universe before the universe existed. If nothing existed, then how did He achieve his marvelous feat?

And whom or what power created the creator?

You’re applying earthly knowledge and logic to comprehend heavenly matter/issues…

Man, likes to think that they have the capacity to understand everything!

It goes to show how stupid we are…

On the contrary GR, it is the theists who think they have the capacity to understand everything by using "God" as the answer to everything they couldn't possibly know.

We are all humans, and we know very few things. So shouldn't we just admit this fact instead of trying to fill our lack of knowledge with "God"?

Go 20.000 years to the past and imagine a solar eclipse. The people of that time would not be able to explain why the sun disappears in the middle of the day. The theists of that time would think in this way: "Something 'magical' happened which we can not explain. Therefore this 'magical' event must be related to God". On the other hand an agnostic would say: "Something happened which I can not explain. Maybe future generations will be able to explain it, or maybe humanity will never be able to explain this phenomenon"

Sure, all humans are "stupid" and we have very little knowledge. But obviously the most stupid ones are those who need to fill the vast gabs of their knowledge with "Gods" instead of just accepting that there are things we can not explain yet or we will never be able to explain.

The most funny thing is that as science progresses and is able to fill some of those gabs which were previously filled with "Gods", religions are trying to excuse themselves by claiming that what is proven wrong is just a "metaphor". (They didn't seem to believe it was a "metaphor" when they were burning people alive for daring to dispute their nonsense)

I wasn’t referring to the immediate and simple things or phenomena surrounding our little planet such as an eclipse, but responded to Paphitis’ daft question…

“And whom or what power created the creator?”

…because he assumes that everything must have a creator! (leading to a never ending loop), that God is comprised of some material he is familiar with, and similar “earthly” logic, which can’t possibly apply in a celestial world.

So, your examples of science advancing and understanding issues pertaining to OUR little planet is one thing, but delving in heavenly matters to explain something like God... quite another! Therein lie our limitations…

[bill cobbett]

Who created the Creator? Who or what created the Watchmaker?

May be easier to think of our own existence, after all we're a little more complicated than watches.

Anyone still think that we (or our distant ancestors anyway) were created by God? The same applies to any life on Earth we care to look at.

Or are we a product of an outrageously long chain of biological evolution, of Darwinian Natural Selection? A natural and totally ungodly process which at every step along the way our ancestors on the tree of life were best suited to take advantage of their environment and to survive and procreate, to adapt to changes in that long line of adaptation from the first self-replicating molecule through a couple of billion years of evolution to us and the rest of life on this planet.

A process that when we look at the current end products that's us and the rest of life on this planet may give some the impression that all this complicated life must have a Creator but which is nothing more than the cumilative products of thousands and thousands of small evolutionary steps.

A process that doesn't need an Intelligent Designer, a God, all it takes is suitable ingredients to start with, a conducive environment and loads of time, Natural Selection does the rest.

[Piratis]

Theres too much design involved in the universe for there not to be a God. It's like finding a watch on the floor and claiming it just ''happened'' out of nowhere.

So who designed the designer?

Coco Chanel!

I don't think it would work like that. If God created us this way, it doesn't mean God would also be like that...

You wouldn't expect God to have hair, nails or have to eat food and pass waste, so why expect God to be given birth to?

But "God" would have to exist to create the universe before the universe existed. If nothing existed, then how did He achieve his marvelous feat?

And whom or what power created the creator?

You’re applying earthly knowledge and logic to comprehend heavenly matter/issues…

Man, likes to think that they have the capacity to understand everything!

It goes to show how stupid we are…

On the contrary GR, it is the theists who think they have the capacity to understand everything by using "God" as the answer to everything they couldn't possibly know.

We are all humans, and we know very few things. So shouldn't we just admit this fact instead of trying to fill our lack of knowledge with "God"?

Go 20.000 years to the past and imagine a solar eclipse. The people of that time would not be able to explain why the sun disappears in the middle of the day. The theists of that time would think in this way: "Something 'magical' happened which we can not explain. Therefore this 'magical' event must be related to God". On the other hand an agnostic would say: "Something happened which I can not explain. Maybe future generations will be able to explain it, or maybe humanity will never be able to explain this phenomenon"

Sure, all humans are "stupid" and we have very little knowledge. But obviously the most stupid ones are those who need to fill the vast gabs of their knowledge with "Gods" instead of just accepting that there are things we can not explain yet or we will never be able to explain.

The most funny thing is that as science progresses and is able to fill some of those gabs which were previously filled with "Gods", religions are trying to excuse themselves by claiming that what is proven wrong is just a "metaphor". (They didn't seem to believe it was a "metaphor" when they were burning people alive for daring to dispute their nonsense)

I wasn’t referring to the immediate and simple things or phenomena surrounding our little planet such as an eclipse, but responded to Paphitis’ daft question…

“And whom or what power created the creator?”

…because he assumes that everything must have a creator! (leading to a never ending loop), that God is comprised of some material he is familiar with, and similar “earthly” logic, which can’t possibly apply in a celestial world.

So, your examples of science advancing and understanding issues pertaining to OUR little planet is one thing, but delving in heavenly matters to explain something like God... quite another! Therein lie our limitations…

The eclipse is indeed a phenomenon which today can be explained in very simple terms. This was not the case 20.000 years ago however. At that time it seemed as something magical.

The reason you believe in a "God" today is not because you have some proof for his existence, but just because you observe certain things that you can not explain and therefore you resort to some "God" to fill in your gabs of knowledge.

“And whom or what power created the creator?”

…because he assumes that everything must have a creator! (leading to a never ending loop), that God is comprised of some material he is familiar with, and similar “earthly” logic, which can’t possibly apply in a celestial world.

And what kind of logic do you use to come to the conclusion that there is a "God"? As far as I know humans are only able of "earthly" logic. If you are not using this logic then obviously you are not using any logic at all, in which case, by definition, you can not make any logical arguments to support the beliefs that you have.

[Piratis]

Who created the Creator? Who or what created the Watchmaker?

May be easier to think of our own existence, after all we're a little more complicated than watches.

Anyone still think that we (or our distant ancestors anyway) were created by God? The same applies to any life on Earth we care to look at.

Or are we a product of an outrageously long chain of biological evolution, of Darwinian Natural Selection? A natural and totally ungodly process which at every step along the way our ancestors on the tree of life were best suited to take advantage of their environment and to survive and procreate, to adapt to changes in that long line of adaptation from the first self-replicating molecule through a couple of billion years of evolution to us and the rest of life on this planet.

A process that when we look at the current end products that's us and the rest of life on this planet may give some the impression that all this complicated life must have a Creator but which is nothing more than the cumilative products of thousands and thousands of small evolutionary steps.

A process that doesn't need an Intelligent Designer, a God, all it takes is suitable ingredients to start with, a conducive environment and loads of time, Natural Selection does the rest.

I agree with you Bill. The theists were arguing for a long time that earth was the center of the universe because everything in their "holly" books pointed in this direction. They insisted on this for a long time, they even burned alive the people who dared to challenge their "center of the universe" view, but in the end they were forced to accept the truth.

The same will happen with the "mystery" of life and our existence on this planet, which it turns out is not such a huge mystery after all. Soon they will be forced to accept evolution as a fact.

[Get Real!]

The reason you believe in a "God" today is not because you have some proof for his existence, but just because you observe certain things that you can not explain and therefore you resort to some "God" to fill in your gabs of knowledge.

I don’t just observe “certain things”, I observe a BIG living thing called the universe!

And what kind of logic do you use to come to the conclusion that there is a "God"?

Simple common sense... a BIG living thing called the universe!

Sorry Piratis, but I find a seemingly endless living entity so hard to ignore that I can’t be stuffed with petty things like… what causes an eclipse or how many types of asteroids there are!

You guys are like someone who sees an elephant for the first time and is wondering about those big eye-lashes but misses the rest of the body!

[Get Real!]

Or are we a product of an outrageously long chain of biological evolution, of Darwinian Natural Selection?

Just as a man can throw a seed on the ground and it’ll germinate and EVOLVE into a tree over time, so too can a God throw a “seed” that evolves into a universe and everything within it.

It is therefore OK to marry evolution with creation!

[yialousa1971]

What nonsense, I will not vote. Heathens!

[Talisker]

Diversity is an old chest nut used by those for a variety of reasons, but I think those that preach social diversity have really taken it to the extreme and allowed things to get out of control. A watered down version of Sharia Law is being practiced in the UK, in the name of 'human diversity'. The world has gone mad...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7232661.stm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... in-UK.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 749183.ece

Also, human diversity means that adults are free to raise their children in accordance with their own faith, which does not seem so bad, but when you consider that infants are often labeled as either a Muslim, Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant child, when they have not even had a chance to to to make up their own mind by analyzing and comparing all faiths, creationism and evolution, we all turn a blind eye saying "how wonderful it is that our society is so diverse and rich". However, if someone was to label their infant child as a Communist, Fascist, Marxist or Socialist, then we would be disgusted and yet the 2 are similar when you think about it.

And yes, I do believe that the world would be a better place if there were no religions, and I believe religiosity will diminish over time....

Now that's what I call evolution...

Anyway, thanks for the links and the lesson....

Oh and btw...which of the above 7 options best fits your view about the existence of the omnipotent almighty deity?

Attempting to control or reduce human diversity led to the Holocaust in 1930s and 40s Europe - extreme example, but worth considering! Yes, it is difficult to find the correct balance between tolerance and maintaining uniform structures within society, but I personally would prefer liberalism to suppression. As for Sharia law in the UK, this is being applied only in appropriate cases and in a very limited manner. I don't particularly agree with this change, as I believe all UK citizens should live within the same legal and judicial system, but the fact is that this is a highly multicultural society these days, and so long as the systems used (mainly in social and financial disputes as I understand it) are fair and humane, then I can put up with it (possibly and selfishly because it is unlikely to affect me!). In fact your links provide excellent examples of typical right-wing press reporting with the usual racial and cultural prejudices to the fore. For example, the Daily Telegraph headline refers to '40% of Muslims wanting Sharia Law in the UK' but neglects to highlight the fact a greater proportion (41%) were not in favour. This is pretty typical of the majority of the UK press reporting on multicultural Britain.

You mentioned the issue of children being brought up with a faith dictated by the wishes of the parents. I have no issue with that at all - most parents want their offspring to 'fit in' to their respective societies, and the major religions are not generally at odds with the general social structures or morals or laws of countries where they are practiced. Indeed they often attempt to influence societal change. Of course, you don't have to be a fundamentalist, or even intermittent practitioner, of any religion to teach your children 'Thou shalt not kill'. If you choose to focus on a few controversial paraphrases or take each line of the major religious texts literally, as you were highlighting earlier, then it is possible to consider religion to be a 'bad' thing with 'evil' messages. However, I consider the testaments to be ancient stories with different interpretations depending on the overall context or translation, and, in my opinion, much of it should be taken with a pinch of salt (I obviously don't believe in the story that is related in Genesis - after all, I am a scientist, not a creationist, but to my mind choosing to discount the creationist story does not equate to there being no God). We should though, remember that there are more people in the world believing in some sort of spirituality than those who do not. Why should that be? For religions to survive they must be able to support and sustain their congregations - there is a natural evolution there too, they must adapt to, or influence, the changing world or they will die. So, of course there are battles within and between religions regarding the way forward for their various flocks - as already highlighted we hear about the extreme Jihad-declaring Muslim clerics and not the (majority) peaceful, the anti-abortion or anti-contraception Christians and not those who are less radical in their views, etc.

You asked to which of the seven options in Dawkins spectrum I subscribe. Well, not the first or the seventh - I'm not 100% sure of anything when it comes to religion and spirituality, and basically vacillate between the other five depending on what is happening in my life at the time. After all, and this is the most important influencing factor, I am a Libran , and can never make my mind up about anything. Religious tolerance is a good thing, but what about those Leos? Bunch of complete and utter tossers, eh? Undoubtedly should be wiped from the face of the Earth!

That 'not' was an important omission........

[Piratis]

The reason you believe in a "God" today is not because you have some proof for his existence, but just because you observe certain things that you can not explain and therefore you resort to some "God" to fill in your gabs of knowledge.

I don’t just observe “certain things”, I observe a BIG living thing called the universe!

And what kind of logic do you use to come to the conclusion that there is a "God"?

Simple common sense... a BIG living thing called the universe!

Sorry Piratis, but I find a seemingly endless living entity so hard to ignore that I can’t be stuffed with petty things like… what causes an eclipse or how many types of asteroids there are!

You guys are like someone who sees an elephant for the first time and is wondering about those big eye-lashes but misses the rest of the body!

The only reason you know the universe is so big is because science told you so. Otherwise you would think that those things in the sky are just small lights around earth placed there by "God" so we can have some light during the night

Also I tell you again that while today something like eclipse can seem very insignificant, 20.000 years ago it was seen as something magical. We have already explained a lot of what is going in the universe, and if you wait another 20.000 years then the whole universe can be as simple to explain as a solar eclipse.