Cyprus-Forum.com

[metecyp]

This is my whole bloody point about arguing with people that see things white when they are black or black when they are white. At this moment in time I am seeing RED because of all the pathetic comments that are flying around.

Maybe you should chill out a little and remind yourself why you're here.

[Yiannis]

What about the Hellenistic efforts to degrade TCs to a minority status and cut the ties of TCs with Turkey?

That's why the de-facto situation lasts for more than 30 years... Keep on dreaming a Hellen dominated Cyprus and naming the defacto situation "invasion" or "occupation"...

As long as you can't understand the facts; there will be no solution to the Cyprus problem. Any solution won't last too long...

Why do you guys keep on concluding something that is not even stated.Did Thrill say anything about the legality of the GC actions?

I say yes, what some GCs did was illegal.And yes Turkey intervening was a legal act to do.However what is illegal is that Turkey only used that legality for its own benefit and as well as the TCs benefit at the time. However is that act of war and continuous occupation of land a legality.My opinion is hell not.

[insan]

I say yes, what some GCs did was illegal.And yes Turkey intervening was a legal act to do.However what is illegal is that Turkey only used that legality for its own benefit and as well as the TCs benefit at the time. However is that act of war and continuous occupation of land a legality.My opinion is hell not.

So should Turkey have restored the original 60s constitutional order - that none of the Hellenes had wanted and even still have not wanted - and withdraw her troops? Hellenes didn't want the 60s treaties and didn't like the 60s constitution. What should have Turkey done? She proposed a bi-zonal, bi-comunal federation.

None of the GC leaders have genuinely wanted a federal state that Turkey is a guarantor and TCs are an equal constitutional community partner of the federal state.

It is obvious and is a known fact that majority of GCs were promised the 3Rs(A dream impossible)by their leadership and ruling elite. Everything is so clear to me. Hellenes want a unitary state of Cyprus that will be controled by Hellenes. A Hellen dominated Cyprus means a far stronger Hellen nation all around the world.

Let's see who will win the Cyprus game. Turks or Hellenes. Both are allies of US. It does not make any difference for US as long as these two allies don't go a war....

[MicAtCyp]

I agree.....broken records, the lot of you. No wonder you lot can think of a solution, 'cos your all stuck in the 1960's.

Hey don't you think you are insulting many people in here? Can you just stop for a minute and think that maybe you are wrong? For example the person to whom you replied is about your age!!!

*****************************

I disagree that the majority of TCs don't want
partition, that they don't want to keep anything that
doesn't belong to them etc. This is the case only with a
small minority of TCs unfortunately.
The majority simply prefers a different form of
partition than the Denctash kind of partition, and they
would be more than glad if they were gifted a lot more
than what they legally have until today on the expense
of GCs. I wish I am wrong, but I am afraid I am not.

I agree fully with you Piratis.This is what I noticed too. Sorry to disappoint some of the TCs friends like Brother but unfortunately this my understanding for the majority of TCs too.

[MicAtCyp]

Insan,

Long time to hear from you my friend. Everything going OK?

Keep on dreaming a Hellen dominated Cyprus and naming the defacto situation "invasion" or "occupation"...

But you said it yourself in the past and I remember your exact words: It was in intervention that turned out to be an invasion and occupation.
Besides I don't see any connection between describing what Turkey did to Cyprus, with "dreams for a Hellenic dominated Cyprus".
Why do you connect the 2 issues? When the UN resolutions say it is illegal occupation it means the UN have Hellenic dreams????

So should Turkey have restored the original 60s constitutional order - that none of the Hellenes had wanted and even still have not wanted - and withdraw her troops? Hellenes didn't want the 60s treaties and didn't like the 60s constitution. What should have Turkey done? She proposed a bi-zonal, bi-comunal federation.

Turkey should have restored the constitutional Order by putting in jail those who violated it without killing any innocent people and then leave.Fullstop.That was her only right, and anything beyond that is just excuses.

Let's see who will win the Cyprus game. Turks or Hellenes. Both are allies of US. It does not make any difference for US as long as these two allies don't go a war....

For me the US is an old fairy tail. But anyway what are your predictions?

[Dhavlos]

sorry MicAtCyp,

sorry if i offended anyone...it just annoyed me that people were arguing over things that end up being argued in every other forum. Eveyone is trying to get their point across, and getting angry doing so!!!

[cannedmoose]

sorry MicAtCyp,

sorry if i offended anyone...it just annoyed me that people were arguing over things that end up being argued in every other forum. Eveyone is trying to get their point across, and getting angry doing so!!!

Dhavlos, it's the Cyprus Problem man, you should expect heated exchanges... amongst all these arguments there are often good points made, which really make you question your own perspective and think about things. Sometimes you have to look amongst the weeds to find the flowers my friend.

[Dhavlos]

Dhavlos, it's the Cyprus Problem man, you should expect heated exchanges... amongst all these arguments there are often good points made, which really make you question your own perspective and think about things. Sometimes you have to look amongst the weeds to find the flowers my friend.

I know, i know, it just gets me that whenever people try to 'solve' the issue, it turns into a slagging match as to who did what.

But we can all learn off each other
thanks moose

[cannedmoose]

I know, i know, it just gets me that whenever people try to 'solve' the issue, it turns into a slagging match as to who did what.

That's because 'who did what to who' is very much a part of the contemporary Cyprus problem. Both sides continue to debate which one is the aggressor and who has caused the other side more pain - the displays of GC missing and the TC Museum of Barbarism being key examples of that.

Hopefully one day people will realise that pain is a universal emotion in Cyprus, an emotion that no-one has a monopoly on. Ultimately, a person in pain is not GC or TC, they're a human being and on that level I'm sure that all of us would feel for them. But in Cyprus, the human level is often overlooked in favour of a community perspective, a perspective based on fear, loss, anger and statistics - that 1619 GC missing compared to a few hundred TC missing demonstrates that they are the villains; that 400 years of oppression and 30 years of occupation outweigh the slaughter of hundreds of innocent people in the early-mid 1960s.

What Cyprus needs is something that I've talked about before. It needs a reconciliation commission, a commission that will produce a project like Steven Spielberg's 'Shoah Visual History Foundation' project which records the perspectives of individuals, as such bringing their stories to life for all of us to see today and for our descendants to see in the future. I think such a project would do a great deal for GC and TC understanding of each other.

For those of you who haven't heard of Shoah, I'd really recommend it. It's a record of experiences of the holocaust, not just Jewish, but homosexual, political prisoners, Jehovah's witnesses etc. from the individual, first-person perspective. Quite harrowing at times, but well worth exploring.

http://www.vhf.org/

[MicAtCyp]

So should Turkey have restored the original 60s constitutional order - that none of the Hellenes had wanted and even still have not wanted - and withdraw her troops? Hellenes didn't want the 60s treaties and didn't like the 60s constitution. What should have Turkey done? She proposed a bi-zonal, bi-comunal federation.

Insan this is what Turkey proposed:
[quoted from Reddaway, 1990, "Odi et Amo: Vignettes of
an Affair with Cyprus", p.83]


A conference of the guarantor powers, Greece, Turkey and Britain, met in
Geneva on 25 July. Meanwhile Turkish troops did not refrain from extending
their positions, as more Turkish-Cypriot enclaves were occupied by Greek
forces. A new cease-fire line was agreed. On 30 July the powers agreed that
the withdrawal of Turkish troops from the island should be linked to a `just
and lasting settlement acceptable to all parties concerned'. The declaration
also spoke of `two autonomous administrations -that of Greek-Cypriot
community and that of the Turkish-Cypriot community'.


At the second Geneva Conference on 9 August, Turkey pressed for a federal
solution to the problem against stiffening Greek resistance. Whilst Turkish
Cypriots wanted a bi-zonal federation, Turkey, under American advice,
submitted a cantonal plan involving separation of Turkish-Cypriot areas from
one another. For security reasons Turkish-Cypriots did not favour cantons.
Each plan embraced about thirty-four per cent of the territory.



These plans were presented to the conference on 13 August by the Turkish
Foreign Minister, Turan Gunes. Clerides wanted thirty-six to forty-eight
hours to consider the plans, but Gunes demanded an immediate response. This
was regarded as unreasonable by the Greeks, the British and the Americans
who were in close consultation. Nevertheless, the next day, the Turkish
forces extended their control to some 36 per cent of the island. they were
afraid that delay would turn international opinion strongly against them if
Greek spoiling tactics were given a chance and they were determined to come
to the rescue of greatly threatened Turkish Cypriots whose enclaves were
still occupied by Greek forces. Up to 160,000 Greek-Cypriots went to South
when the fighting started. Some 50,000 Turkish-Cypriots later (1975) moved
to the North.