Cyprus-Forum.com

[Bananiot]

Too many moderators spoil the ... broth!

One line posts will be deleted from THIS SECTION of the forum in the future.Exceptions apply to questions/short answers and posts that clearly promote the discussion.Other exceptions at discretion.
Please expand your thoughts or comments.

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From MicAtCyp:
There are only 2 mods in this section.Erolz will be joining too. Try to read all these posts and you will see how easy it might be
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[Alexandros Lordos]

Anyway, back to the topic of this thread, I have a point to make about Bananiot's last post...

I am glad we agree on this one Alexandros. Of course I knew all along that you are inspired by moderation, pragmatism and a down to earth approach to our problem. These qualities and some others are obvious in all your contributions.

Regarding your surveys I would like to express my opinion (I should have done this long time ago) and to comment you for your sincere efforts to help out. However I am very much aware of something which I think I should share with you and the rest of the forum members. The opinion of the masses, which you are trying hard to tap, is heavily influenced by what our respective party leaders say. Unfortunately this is a Cypriot phenomenon which I am not proud about. Hence, the opinions you register one day may stand head down the next day. The influence of party leaders is phenomenal and this may make mockery of the most scientific survey. Of course I am not trying to discourage you but I feel I should let you have these thoughts. However, you are probably well aware of this factor but how does one bring it into the general equation?

Bananiot re, do you really think the party leaders have such a sway over public opinion? In most modern democracies the relationship between parties and public is a dialectical one, i.e. both lead and both follow. Are you saying that in the case of Cyprus, politics remains in a proto-form and the personalities and promulgations of party leaders act in large part to forge opinion as opposed to the other way around. I'd be interested to hear your perspective on that. It would also be useful for my thesis to discuss that

My view on this - founded mostly on empirical data - is that leaders in the GC community have a great sway over voters, and voters are far more loyal to their parties than they should be, but when it comes to the Cyprus Problem most people tend to have a mind of their own. For instance, I know from my first survey that there was very little correlation between attitudes to Annan Plan and party allegiance (at least as far as the four large parties are concerned). Furthermore, the correlation between party allegiance and vote at the referendum was also quite weak - a majority of DISY voters still voted No, about a quarter of AKEL voters still voted Yes, about 15% of DIKO and EDEK voters still voted Yes. Political influence in this respect is limited.

On the contrary, I would say that, on the issue of the Cyprus Problem, it is the politicians that tend to fear and obey the public, not the other way round. When AKEL sensed that the public mood was against the plan, it no longer dared to support it fearing an "electoral punishment" by its voters. As an example, many politicians would like to accept compromises on the issue of property / residence rights, based on the "pragmatic thinking" that very few people would choose to return anyway, but they don't dare to proceed along this path because they fear a public backlash.

The effect of politicians, over public perceptions regarding the Cyprus Problem, only works in the long term - over a period of decades. This is why TCs don't care about the right of return whereas GCs do. It has to do with the rhetoric that each side has been hearing. These attitudes, however, cannot be changed over a period of months by "very convincing politicians" - they are too deeply ingrained now.

Concerning the most recent survey, I would say that on the GC side the results were quite definitive: The GC public knows exactly how they would like to see the Annan Plan changed. A politician may choose to ignore the public's views at his peril. On the TC side, in contrast, perhaps because there has been little talk of "changing the Annan Plan", opinions are far less well defined, and I suspect that much would change once these issues enter the sphere of public debate. For instance, on the provision which "killed" my proposal: No limits to residence but separate voting. Once the proposal starts being discussed on the TC side, many will begin to argue that such a provision would threaten bizonality, and therefore, since the argument would tap into deeply ingrained fears and insecurities, we can expect many people to swing from being in favour to being opposed.

[Alexandros Lordos]

I've been examing all the comments of various people concerning the proposal made in this thread, and it seems to me that objections can be grouped into two main categories.

For the TCs, erosion of bizonality: The "No limit to residence" provision, in combination with the "right to a new home" provision, creates the fear that TCs will eventually become a minorty in the north.

For the GCs, less than full restitution of property: Not every refugee will be entitled to reclaim all of his property.

Am I correct in assuming that the rest - quoted below - relating to Security, Settlers, Power Sharing, Legal Status, Implementation Guarantees, is more or less acceptable to everyone ? (I know Turkcyp objects to some of this, but no one else has mentioned any objections)

Revised Security: The development of a Cypriot-European security system, as follows: Greek and Turkish troops will be replaced by a European Security force, under a European commander, and this force will also include Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot soldiers, who will together receive military training in other European countries. This new security force, comprised of units for land, sea and air defence, will be responsible to deal with all internal and external threats. Until Turkey joins the European Union, however, a safety valve for the direct protection of the Turkish Cypriots by Turkey will also be in place, if the above described system of European Security fails to protect them from some particular threat.

Note: If Turkey never joins the EU, then presumably this "last-resort protection right" mentioned above will apply indefinitely. There will be a special European Committee overseeing the deployment of this Security Force, and Turkey will have a seat in that committee even when she is not a member of the European Union.


Revised Provisions for Settlers/Immigrants from Turkey: Citizenship will be acknowledged to those married to Turkish Cypriots, those born in Cyprus and those who arrived here before the age of 18, while a permanent residence permit will also be granted to their parents, who will remain citizens and voters of Turkey with the right to live and work in Cyprus. Everyone else will be required to return to Turkey within 2 years of the settlement, and will be compensated USD 20,000 per family, paid for by Turkey and International Donors, to help finance their relocation.

Note: Only families that have been resident in Cyprus for at least nine years before the Comprehensive Settlement will be entitled to the treatment desribed above. All others will be granted a temporary 3-year work permit, after which time they will be required to depart.


Revised Decision Making Mechanisms: The requirement for positive participation of both communities in decision making will be maintained, but an electoral system will be instituted whereby the politicians will have an electoral motive to be co-operative. More particularly, cross voting will be instituted for the Senate as follows: Greek Cypriots will also vote for Turkish Cypriot Senators, but their vote will be weighted to 25% of the total vote, while Turkish Cypriots will also vote for Greek Cypriot Senators, and their vote will be weighted to 25% of the total vote. In this way, a politician will still have to satisfy his own community’s fundamental needs in order to be elected, but he will also have to convince the other community’s voters that he is open minded, respectful and co-operative.


Revised Legal Status: A formula will be included in the preamble of the constitution, as follows: Firstly, it will be affirmed that the Republic of Cyprus was founded in 1960 as a Bicommunal Republic, to be jointly administered by the Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots according to the constitution. After the unrest of 1963-4, the Republic of Cyprus entered a period of constitutional crisis. During this period, and up until the present day, the Greek Cypriots maintained a temporary caretaker government of the Republic of Cyprus, out of the necessity to maintain the continuity of the Republic, while in the same period the Turkish Cypriots formed a temporary Turkish Cypriot administration, out of the necessity to manage their everyday affairs on an interim basis. And now, with the acceptance of the Comprehensive Settlement agreement, the Republic of Cyprus is overcoming its constitutional crisis and returning to normal Bicommunal control, while evolving into a Bizonal – Bicommunal Federation through the approval of a new constitution.


Revised Implementation Guarantees: All the sides involved, Greek Cypriots, Turkish Cypriots, Greece and Turkey, will sign a binding protocol with the European Union, which protocol shall clearly define the responsibilities of each side regarding the implementation of the solution and also define specific consequences for particular acts of non-implementation. Depending on what the breach is, the consequence might be a monetary fine or the withdrawal of some particular EU-related benefit.

I look forward to hear your comments.

[cannedmoose]

Hi Alex, thanks for your comments re: the GC political parties and public opinion, I found your comments most useful.

As for your plan, I've already mentioned my issues (I wouldn't call it disagreement) with the security aspects. However, I'm not a Cypriot, and it's always been and will always be my belief that any solution has to come from within. So I'll leave it to you guys to hammer this one out.

[MicAtCyp]

The effect of politicians, over public perceptions regarding the Cyprus Problem, only works in the long term - over a period of decades. This is why TCs don't care about the right of return whereas GCs do.

This is not so Alex and you know it. The reason is because the majority of TCs got much better/expensive/worthy/more houses/lands than what they left behind.The other reason is because they feel more secure be all together.
If you notice carefully those TCs who left substantial property behind and they did not get the same in the occupied, or got less or got nothing because they were abroad are completely in line with the views of the GCs. Even in this forum....

By the way I did not vote neither commented in this thread. I am tired of disagreeing with you on the matter of properties.Sorry...

[MicAtCyp]

Regarding the properties I dont also like the vague statements of "he will be entitled for a new home" he will be compensated etc. Compensation should come directly from the one getting the property, new home should be built by the one getting the compansation according to his tastes and pocket. These vague things will just end to everyone expecting from the state to compensate them or donate them properties. This is what happened in the Anan plan....

[Bananiot]

Too many moderators spoil the ... broth!

One line posts will be deleted from THIS SECTION of the forum in the future. Exceptions apply to questions/short answers and posts that clearly promote the discussion. Other exceptions at discretion. Please expand your thoughts or comments.

It was meant to be a joke, a light touch. Do not make the discussions dull and colourless. Good humour has a place even in the most serious matters.

[Alexandros Lordos]

The effect of politicians, over public perceptions regarding the Cyprus Problem, only works in the long term - over a period of decades. This is why TCs don't care about the right of return whereas GCs do.

This is not so Alex and you know it. The reason is because the majority of TCs got much better/expensive/worthy/more houses/lands than what they left behind.The other reason is because they feel more secure be all together.

The points you raise are both valid, and probably the most important factors. However, I would argue that there is also an effect from long-term education.

By the way I did not vote neither commented in this thread. I am tired of disagreeing with you on the matter of properties.Sorry...

Yes, we've had this discussion on property a dozen times over, but we still can't see eye-to-eye. Let's leave it then, at least for now ...

[MicAtCyp]

It was meant to be a joke, a light touch. Good humour has a place even in the most serious matters.

And i was trying to correct the wrong perception on which your "joke" was made

Do not make the discussions dull and colourless.

Huh?

Good humour has a place even in the most serious matters.

Like you said good humor. I understand you have the measures to qualify it as such, as per your example.

[Bananiot]

And I was trying to correct the wrong perception on which your "joke" was made

I was referring to the hailstorm of moderators that suddenly flooded the forum

EDITED. Name calling is not permitted.