Cyprus-Forum.com

[Agios Amvrosios]

Khan:

their own state. TC's have to have gurantee of long term sovereignty of their own constituent state.

This attitude is not cooperative and proreunification.

What do you want a provision that Non turks are culled after their numbers exceed a certain percentage.

[cannedmoose]

Cannedmoose, your comments were very helpful - and you've given me much food for thought in order to flesh out this proposal. I agree with all your comments and qualifications.

No problem re. If I can give any further input on this particular issue, let me know.

[Liza]

Hi guys, I'm no expert on political issues, generally speaking I stay away. But after reading this thread carefully I have come to the conclusion that the biggest problem lies in the property of the refugees.
Sadly I feel that too much conflict will come about due to the problems that will occur between people refusing to get out of other peoples houses, land ownership, house swapping etc... it will end up in chaos, where eventually due to TC's being the minority in the island they'll end up feeling threatened (again) and then mainland Turkey will take action. Who is to blame ? No-one and everyone but peace is not something that comes easy especially when money is involved. At the end of the day each individual looks at his/hers personal gain and I see no gain from any sort of conflict - my kids futures are here in Cyprus and I would prefer if the island remains basically as it is, with all refugees being compensated accordingly ( I realize the sentimental value can never be compensated) and both sides legally recognized.
We've been going round and round in circles for too long, I think its obvious that deep down the trust needed for us to live together is not there.
BTW I am considered to be a refugee as my father is from Morfu.

[brother]

Welcome Liza to the serious side of the forum, i read your post with interest and even though i find what you say has an element of truth in it could you not expand with your ideas and maybe you might come up with something all the others have not thought of.

[Liza]

Hi Bro, to be honest I don't have some great idea of what the best solution would be. I know that I'd welcome a peaceful island with a mixed GC & TC community I've lived in London and had TC friends so I know that it can be done but I just feel that there is too much resentment on both sides. You can see it here on the forum, I've read alot of the serious stuff and refrained from answering or commenting so as not to be put up against the firing squad (GC's or TC's). People dwelling on what they've lost, others putting 100% blame on one side only. These people really do exist and there alot more out there we don't know of.

[Khan]

Khan:

their own state. TC's have to have gurantee of long term sovereignty of their own constituent state.

This attitude is not cooperative and proreunification.

What do you want a provision that Non turks are culled after their numbers exceed a certain percentage.

Agios, you have to give guarantees to TC's that their existence on the island will not be threatened. As a minority on the island this is absoloutely essentially to any settlement that TC's feel safe in their own state. Whats the point in a bizonal plan if the whole island is going to become GC?

[detailer]

Revised Residence / Voting Rights: There will be no limit to the number of Greek Cypriots who may choose to reside in the north

There has to be a limit, otherwise Turkish Cypriots will become a minority in their own state. TC's have to have gurantee of long term sovereignty of their own constituent state.

That's right. Maybe GC can hold the property and get the rent for it. Giving limitless residence rights to GC in north will make the restrictions on their voting rights meaningless after a while.

I can understand your concern - and I assume that this is the main reason this proposal has mostly been getting "No" from TCs so far, but you have to think what your alternative is. If you ARE going to enforce a quota on the number of GCs coming to the north, then you cannot at the same time ask that they shouldn't have voting rights - such a proposal would not be balanced. So what we would end up having, is 30% GC voters in the TC constituent state, whereas in the GC state TC voters would be only 5%. This would unbalance the "political equality of the solution" that TCs tend to seek, since the TC state politicians will have to satisfy GC voters whereas the GC state politicians will not be under a similar constraint. Are you sure that you prefer this over separate voting but without residence limits?

I suppose my proposal is leading to a situation where bizonality will gradually become irrelevant, and bicommunality will prevail. The state would eventually evolve into a bicommunal unitary state, similar to the 1960 constitution, where the two communities would enjoy political equality while the populations become totally mixed.

I would personally prefer that the number of GC's coming to north is limited bu they also have a limited voting in north rather than none.

[boulio]

Alex send the proposal to brussels so it can be presented to the two communities directly by the EU.THERE should also be something concerning the british bases(as we see things heating up in the news)Greece,Great Britain and Turkey should not have a say in this,there time on the island is over,they fucked up things enough in the last 40 years.Let the two communites truly negotiate your recomondation.Excellent work by the way,i did not vote since im greek and my country is one of the fuck ups.(this should also go for britons and turks on this web site).

[Viewpoint]

And but you should seriously think about the 2002 date if you want to present this proposal to political leaders. There has been so much construction done in north since 2002 putting this deadline is a recipe for getting a "No" vote in north.

Well, the idea behind 2002 is that it is the date when the Annan Plan came out. Any construction that happened after that date is "suspect", as trying to abuse provisions of the Annan Plan. That is why the Plan itself gave a watershed date of 31st December 2002, so that people wouldn't abuse its provisions in later months.

I suppose the issue will eventually be bargained by the two leaders, and a date sometime between 2002 and today will be chosen as the watershed - perhaps the date of the last referendum, in April 2004.

wouldnt this issue pretty much rely on when a solution was found eg 2010 the taking a cut off date of 2002 would not be very logical as you can imagine the amount of developmet that will go on in the north over the next 6 years.

Liza firstly welcome to this part of the forum.

Hi guys, I'm no expert on political issues, generally speaking I stay away. But after reading this thread carefully I have come to the conclusion that the biggest problem lies in the property of the refugees.
Sadly I feel that too much conflict will come about due to the problems that will occur between people refusing to get out of other peoples houses, land ownership, house swapping etc... it will end up in chaos, where eventually due to TC's being the minority in the island they'll end up feeling threatened (again) and then mainland Turkey will take action. Who is to blame ? No-one and everyone but peace is not something that comes easy especially when money is involved. At the end of the day each individual looks at his/hers personal gain and I see no gain from any sort of conflict - my kids futures are here in Cyprus and I would prefer if the island remains basically as it is, with all refugees being compensated accordingly ( I realize the sentimental value can never be compensated) and both sides legally recognized.
We've been going round and round in circles for too long, I think its obvious that deep down the trust needed for us to live together is not there. BTW I am considered to be a refugee as my father is from Morfu.

Have to agree with you I feel the same and where Ive gone over what you have said in bold I to have said th is many times no trust or goodwill have developed between our communities to help find a solution, your idea of recognizing both sides and compensating refugees is now gaining momentum and we are reading comments from hardline forum contributors that they to are coming around to thinking this may be the only realistic solution.

[cannedmoose]

Alex send the proposal to brussels so it can be presented to the two communities directly by the EU.THERE should also be something concerning the british bases(as we see things heating up in the news)Greece,Great Britain and Turkey should not have a say in this,there time on the island is over,they fucked up things enough in the last 40 years.Let the two communites truly negotiate your recomondation.Excellent work by the way,i did not vote since im greek and my country is one of the fuck ups.(this should also go for britons and turks on this web site).

Boulio, I've already sent my comments to Alex, but I noticed with interest your mention of something needing to be done about the SBAs. I agree entirely, they are an anachronism and their status needs to be amended. I don't think it's likely that they will be dissolved as there are too many vested interests involved, but in the draft security framework I proposed some time ago I did address their use and status. If you can read this (i've pasted it below) and let us know your thoughts, it might also assist Alex in crafting something on the SBAs in his plan. Thanks re.

(q) The Sovereign Base Areas would be reduced in size, as prescribed in Annan V and the vacant land returned to civilian use. Sovereignty over the SBAs would be formally restored to the Cypriot government, although the UK would retain a 99-year leasehold on the territory from the date of any agreement. British forces would be free to come and go without restriction as to number or equipment (excluding nuclear forces).

(r) No new facilities would be established within the SBAs without the agreement of the Cyprus government. The upgrading of old facilities would be permitted so long as their nature is not changed (i.e. defensive systems could be replaced with more modern systems, yet should retain a similar range and be for defensive purposes only; runways could be repaved but not lengthened).

(s) Only British forces would be allowed to be permanently stationed in the SBAs. No NATO or other forces would be permitted to be permanently based in the SBAs. Visits by foreign forces to the SBAs would be subject to approval by both the NATO Council and the Cyprus government.

(t) Use of the SBAs in military operations would be subject to approval by the Cyprus government, excluding incidents of domestic strife requiring EU intervention. In this case, EU approval via majority vote in the Council of Foreign Ministers would be required.

(u) The British government shall inform the Cyprus government of any exercises taking place within the SBA territory or in the airspace or seaspace around, giving at least 48hrs notice. British exercises shall take place within prescribed boundaries in the territorial waters and airspace of Cyprus

(v) Current facilities outside the SBA areas would be retained on a permanent rolling 50 year lease from the Cyprus government. Cyprus will become a member of the ECHELON network, with the information gained from these facilities shared amongst its members. Should the Cypriot authorities violate the confidentiality of ECHELON, the sharing of information will cease with the permanent lease remaining in force. Upgrading of these facilities will be permitted, but they will be operated by a limited number of British troops only, no other forces will be permitted to operate in these areas.

(w) The 1960 Treaty of Guarantee would be abolished, including the sections describing the rights of British forces outside the SBAs. British forces would no longer have the immediate right to requisition international ports, airports and the road networks linking the bases as specified in the 1960 Treaty, without the consent of the Cyprus government.

(x) Movement of units between the SBAs of larger than 100 men, or comprising heavy weapons between bases would be subject to 48hrs notice given to both the Cyprus government. These movements would be escorted by observers from the Civil Guard.