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A revised Plan: What would you vote?

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

If this plan was put to referendum tomorrow, what would you vote?

I am a GC and I would vote Yes
6
29%
I am a GC and I would vote No
6
29%
I am a TC and I would vote Yes
1
5%
I am a TC and I would vote No
8
38%
 
Total votes : 21

Postby Othellos » Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:41 pm

Alexandros wrote:
From what I heard, they'll be meeting every few days, discussing, in turn, each aspect of the solution in depth.


The thing is that the solution will not be the result of any talks between any GC or TC political party. Of course such meetings are always helpful but at the same time I wouldn't rush into describing them as a major development. After all, such bi-communal meetings between politicians have been going on for years now. The only thing to create some kind of movement out of the currenty stalemate which in turn may lead to developments is if the Cypriot Government (Tassos Papadopoulos) comes up with a real pro-solution policy and takes some serious steps to convince that he means business.

I think Tassos wanted to give it a decent shot at finding a solution, but became alienated half-way through the process when he felt that the UN was not listening to his concerns. After that point, he lost faith in the process and stopped co-operating.


I wonder if Tassos was giving the solution a decent shot when he was having secret disscussions in his residence with Denktash Jt. But let us suppose that what u write is the case. One cannot help but wonder about the day after? there is no solution, no land has been returned, the occupation army is still here and increasing etc etc (Bananiot has summarized it furter up). So what has Tassos done one whole year after the referendum and what about the "infamous" OXI management (diaxeirish tou OXI)? For better or for worse, the Annan plan was rejected - fair enough. The question is if Papadopoulos is capable of putting things back on track and negotiating a decent plan for us? On this i have my serious doubts.

My source is conversations, both with simple GCs and with prominent leaders of the Yes campaign. For instance, one prominent leader of the Yes camp told me that the economic restrictions to investing in the TCCS were not a problem, because it would be easy to bypass such provisions through off-shore companies under a different name. One GC told me that "We should have said Yes, despite the problematic aspects, and then, two or three years later, we could have changed it". When I argued that this is what happened in 1963, the point didn't seem to register.


Since the outcome of the referendum was the rejection of the UN plan, only God knows what would have happened if there was a solution. the thing is that neither side will ever offered the "perfect" plan. But even if this happens it still doesnt matter as the success of any solution will depend greatly on the ability of both sides to address together all the problems that will surely arise in the process. According to some sources, this is not what happened in 1963 when some problems in the implementation of the agreements were also encountered. The TCs for example should have never insisted on the implementation 70-30 ratio "here and now" (by Dec 1962 they were participating with 25%). And makarios should have not rushed with suggestions to amend the Constitution, especially at that time when tension was running high and when there were other ways to bypass the problems that were encountered (for more on this read "My Deposition" by Glafkos Clerides, Vol.1).

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Postby -mikkie2- » Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:25 am

This discussion has been interesting to follow.

I had to chuckle when Alexandos mentioned what Predegrast said in his report to the UN Secretary General - each side must ensure a yes from the other community.

I wonder if the UN heeded its own advice when they formulated the final Annan plan. Clearly not. The whole process was a sham and completely mismanaged by the UN in my opinion. The UN has to take a big share of responsibily for this failure.

I am also quite amused to hear Bananiot ruing the fact that we voted down the plan. Accepting a plan just for the sake of it or accepting it thinking that any future plans would be much worse, well what can I say? One has to fight to gain their rights. It 'aint a cake walk. We will probably have to go through further pain before things get any better.

Regarding Papadopoulos, well, I can understand why people distrust him. However, one has to look at what has been happening since the referendums. Papadopoulos and his advisers have been very busy explaining the positions of our side to countless heads of state. I believe he is a pragamatist and a realist. I do not think that he does not believe in a bizonal, bicommunal federation.

He is realsic enough to realise that anything else will be pure fantasy. The man is not stupid. What he is doing is fighting for the right of EVERY Cypriot to be free to live and work anywhere in Cyprus. He is fighting for the refugees and he is fighting for a Cyprus that can stand on its own two feet. These things can be acheived but we need to work very hard to get these things. And this does not necesserily mean not having a bizonal bicommunal federation. The TC's can have their administrive zone and the GC's theirs. It has been like that for 31 years anyway and that isn't going to change at the drop of a hat. But the rights of the individual should not be curtailed regarding where they wish to live and work. That is racist and fascit in nature and has no place in Europe.
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Postby Bananiot » Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:03 am

Therefore, mikkie, the TC's for instance will have their administrative zone where the majority could be GC's. Won't this be anachronistic and fascist and racist? Also, would you like to elaborate on your confessed understanding as to why people distrust Papadopoulos? What do you mean by people? The TC's, the GC's, the international community, the whole world? History tells us that Papadopoulos was never a realist or a pragmatic politician. He REJECTED every single solution that was offered to us since 1959. He even rejected the 1959 London-Zurich agreements only to make a U turn recently and call them a blessing in disguise. You are saying mikkie that we should trust him because he wants the best for all Cypriots. I am not convinced, but try convincing the TC'c, even the most progressive and pro solution. Perhaps you are proposing that we should fight by ourselves to gain our rights. We have tried this before, completely ignoring the TC's and this is our predicament.
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Postby -mikkie2- » Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:12 am

Bananiot

What do I mean?

I mean that this man has spent the past 12 months travelling the whole of Europe trying to explain the no of the GC's. He knows what is and what is not possible, and I am sure he has got lots of feedback. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what the possiblities are regarding the Cyprus Problem.

And you say that if GC's are a majority in a TC administered area that is fascistic? Man, what planet are you from? And a bbf where there are limits on residency is not fascistic? If this is what we end up with then you might as well have partition.

I bet you that the ordinary people on the ground of both sides would not particularly care about the political form of the solution as long as they are not restricted in their rights to live and work where they choose. Placing these restrictions will only bring back problems in the future.

And when I mean fight, I mean that we should all be united and focused on the common goal of bringing about the proper unification of our country. And if you think Anastasiades is a true leader for going against the grain, well thanks but no thanks. The guy is a hot head and does not take criticism easily if at all. Not the sort of person you want as a leader. We need people with vision, not rhetoric, and Anastasiades unfortunately in my opinion has no particular vision and lots of rhetoric.
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Postby Bananiot » Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:29 am

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Postby Bananiot » Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:34 am

And you say that if GC's are a majority in a TC administered area that is fascistic? Man, what planet are you from? And a bbf where there are limits on residency is not fascistic? If this is what we end up with then you might as well have partition.


I was merely following your lead. Do you find it acceptable to be administered by the minority? Does this not touch your sensitive strings or is this an example where we can be magnanimous to the TC's?

I mean that this man has spent the past 12 months travelling the whole of Europe trying to explain the no of the GC's. He knows what is and what is not possible, and I am sure he has got lots of feedback. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what the possiblities are regarding the Cyprus Problem.


This man has been frantically knocking on the doors of European leaders with very little success, whereas Talat meets leaders almost at will. He is not fit to represent us. I tell you again, he is discredited. No one takes him seriously. He cannot help us. I am totally at loss when people like you close their eyes and refuse flatly to see what this man represents. Over the many years that have passed one did not need to be a rocket scientist in order to chart the proper path to solution. Yet, he stubbornly rejected every single offer of a solution, from 1959 right up to now. And you know, you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
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Postby Kifeas » Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:36 am

Bananiot wrote:History tells us that Papadopoulos was never a realist or a pragmatic politician. He REJECTED every single solution that was offered to us since 1959. He even rejected the 1959 London-Zurich agreements only to make a U turn recently and call them a blessing in disguise.


Bananiot,
When Papadopoullos rejected the 1959 London-Zurich agreements, obviously he could not have been a prophet to know in advance that there would be treason in Cyprus by the Greek Junta and the Eoka B, which would have let to a Turkish invasion, occupation of 35% of the country and ethnic cleansing of GCs from the north, which fact in its turn would have forced us to accept a solution on the basis a BB federation. And if you are not aware, Akel has also rejected the London-Zurich agreements.

The present situation is not the result of Papadopoullos rejection of the London-Zurich agreements but the results of 1974 treason, something that some people attempted to repeat and they are still dream of repeating, even today.

Bananiot wrote:You are saying mikkie that we should trust him because he wants the best for all Cypriots. I am not convinced, but try convincing the TC'c, even the most progressive and pro solution. Perhaps you are proposing that we should fight by ourselves to gain our rights. We have tried this before, completely ignoring the TC's and this is our predicament.


So, according to you, which rights of the GCs is Papadopoullos trying to safeguard that will simultaneously violate the rights (and which rights?) of the TCs?
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Postby Bananiot » Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:57 am

I am not going to discuss all the above with you again. However, to say that our problems started in 1974 and not in 1963 shows flagrant disrespect of historical facts. I can understand why you want to jump this period, when Papadopoulos was striving for the annihilation of the TC community.

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Postby Kifeas » Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:21 pm

Bananiot wrote:I am not going to discuss all the above with you again. However, to say that our problems started in 1974 and not in 1963 shows flagrant disrespect of historical facts. I can understand why you want to jump this period, when Papadopoulos was striving for the annihilation of the TC community.


Our problems started in the early 1950’s if you want to know exactly when they did. I am not jumping any period. I am just saying that the phase we are going through now, i.e. occupation and negotiations on the basis of BBF, are not the result of Papadopoullos rejection of the 1959 agreements –after all he was not the only one, but a direct result of the 1974 coup and the Turkish invasion. Before 1974 events, we did not have an occupation and we did not negotiate with the TCs on the basis of the BBF. As a matter of fact, those negotiations were almost concluded and would most likely have been signed, should some clever GCs and Junta did not overthrough Makarios and did not open the door for Turkey to invade and occupy the north. Ever since, we are negotiating on a BBF, and this fact has nothing to do with the rejection of the London-Zurich agreements by Papadopoullos and very little to do with the events of 1963. (I mean the fact that today we are asked to find a solution of the basis of BBF.)

I do not show any flagrant disrespect of historical facts. Papadopoullos did not strive for the annihilation of the TC community -a clear flagrant disrespect of historical facts, committed by you .

Your positions on the issue of Cyprus have surpassed by far those of the TC community’s leadership. You appear to be the best solicitor of those ideas and positions. Sometimes I am wondering if I am just reading Sertar Denktash or Ferdi Soyer, when reading your postings. With the acceleration that you accumulated lately, soon you will sound like Ertogluoglou, Raouf Denktash and Ecevit.

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Postby -mikkie2- » Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:25 pm

I tell you again, he is discredited. No one takes him seriously. He cannot help us.


Bananiot,

I would like to know how you come to this conclusion. Lets see, he has been invited by Blair to visit the UK, even Chirac, that bastion of EU statehood who is totally dicredited by his own people let alone most of Europe has invited Papa who? to France for an official visit. Is this just to tell him that he is being a naughty boy nad that he should do as he is told?

I was merely following your lead. Do you find it acceptable to be administered by the minority? Does this not touch your sensitive strings or is this an example where we can be magnanimous to the TC's?


Following what lead? If you had followed my past postings I was fully accepting that the TC's would have effective control of any TC administered area. That is one of the basic demands of the TC community and it has to be accepted, but to then add the ignonimity of having to restrict residency rights on GC's in their own country whilst allowing unfettered access of other EU nationals into Cyprus does smack of fascism and racism don't you think?

The bottom line for me is that the rights of refugees MUST be respected and that basic freedoms of individuals must also be respected. Any talk giving excuses for precluding these basic rights and freedoms is simply giving credence to 'might is right' way of conducting international relations. What a fantastic example this would set for the rest of the world. Otherwise Bananiot, as your name suggests, we will be living in a plantation state forever.
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