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TRNC was founded on plunder

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby insan » Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:29 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:I have found an English translation of part of the interview given to Milliyet by Bülent Ecevit on November 13, 1990, in which he spoke of how he first learned of the existence of the Special War Department at a time when he was prime-minister:

http://www.info-turk.be/169.E.htm

"In 1974, just before the military operation in Cyprus, I was informed for the first time about the existence of a department in charge of special warfare within the headquarters of the Turkish general staff. They were asking for money. When I inquired who had funded the department until then I was told that it was financed by the United States," said Ecevit.
"When I insisted, a secret briefing on the functioning of this organization was given to me and the then defense minister Hasan Esat Isik. We were told the Special Warfare Department was an organization composed of 'volunteer patriots.' They said its headquarters was located in the same building as the US military aid delegation to Turkey. I was told also that the organization had secret weapons depots. Its members were trained in special warfare techniques. If and when the country was invaded by an aggressor the members of this clandestine organization were supposed to launch counter-guerrilla warfare against the invaders. I was told the organization was made up of mainly young people but that when they got elder they might eventually become politicians.
"This was a secret weapon. I thought we should act swiftly and put measures into force against the organization's use. But that was at the time of the Cyprus operation. Nothing was done."



Ecevit as a leftist might not have known abt this organization until he asked abt it...

Allied Coordination Committee
Secret right-wing paramilitary network in Western Europe, set up in the 1950s to arm guerrillas chosen from the civilian population in the event of Soviet invasion or communist takeover. Initiated and partly funded by the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), it was linked to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and operated by the secret services and armed forces of member countries. Its past or present existence was officially acknowledged in 1990 by Belgium, France, (West) Germany, Greece, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, and Portugal, who each said that the branches had been or would be closed down.

The network was reported to have links with right-wing extremist groups – at least in Belgium and Italy. Switzerland officially stated in 1990 that its secret resistance army, P-26, had no links with the Allied Coordination Committee, although it had cooperated with British secret services.



http://encyclopedia.farlex.com/Allied+C ... +Committee

As for it's links with TMT and activities in Cyprus; apart from their merciless political stance against leftists; in general, i see nothing wrong with organizing TCs under TMT against EOKA and struggling for TC/Turkish interests in Cyprus.

Some may claim they were struggling for the interests of US or other allies... It is partly true because they were in the same alliance and thus also serving the interests of US and all others in the same alliance.

If so, wasn't Greece in the same alliance? She was in the same alliance but there were interest conflicts between GCs/Greeks and TCs/Turks over Cyprus.

Had there been no interest conflicts between 2 nations; there would still have been interest conflicts between leftists and rightists.

What abt the otherwise?

Had there been no interest conflicts between 2 ideological groups would there have been interest conflicts between 2 nations and 2 ethnic communities in Cyprus?

Most probablyi Yes...
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Postby Tim Drayton » Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:39 pm

insan wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:I have found an English translation of part of the interview given to Milliyet by Bülent Ecevit on November 13, 1990, in which he spoke of how he first learned of the existence of the Special War Department at a time when he was prime-minister:

http://www.info-turk.be/169.E.htm

"In 1974, just before the military operation in Cyprus, I was informed for the first time about the existence of a department in charge of special warfare within the headquarters of the Turkish general staff. They were asking for money. When I inquired who had funded the department until then I was told that it was financed by the United States," said Ecevit.
"When I insisted, a secret briefing on the functioning of this organization was given to me and the then defense minister Hasan Esat Isik. We were told the Special Warfare Department was an organization composed of 'volunteer patriots.' They said its headquarters was located in the same building as the US military aid delegation to Turkey. I was told also that the organization had secret weapons depots. Its members were trained in special warfare techniques. If and when the country was invaded by an aggressor the members of this clandestine organization were supposed to launch counter-guerrilla warfare against the invaders. I was told the organization was made up of mainly young people but that when they got elder they might eventually become politicians.
"This was a secret weapon. I thought we should act swiftly and put measures into force against the organization's use. But that was at the time of the Cyprus operation. Nothing was done."



Ecevit as a leftist might not have known abt this organization until he asked abt it...

Allied Coordination Committee
Secret right-wing paramilitary network in Western Europe, set up in the 1950s to arm guerrillas chosen from the civilian population in the event of Soviet invasion or communist takeover. Initiated and partly funded by the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), it was linked to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and operated by the secret services and armed forces of member countries. Its past or present existence was officially acknowledged in 1990 by Belgium, France, (West) Germany, Greece, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, and Portugal, who each said that the branches had been or would be closed down.

The network was reported to have links with right-wing extremist groups – at least in Belgium and Italy. Switzerland officially stated in 1990 that its secret resistance army, P-26, had no links with the Allied Coordination Committee, although it had cooperated with British secret services.



http://encyclopedia.farlex.com/Allied+C ... +Committee

As for it's links with TMT and activities in Cyprus; apart from their merciless political stance against leftists; in general, i see nothing wrong with organizing TCs under TMT against EOKA and struggling for TC/Turkish interests in Cyprus.

Some may claim they were struggling for the interests of US or other allies... It is partly true because they were in the same alliance and thus also serving the interests of US and all others in the same alliance.

If so, wasn't Greece in the same alliance? She was in the same alliance but there were interest conflicts between GCs/Greeks and TCs/Turks over Cyprus.

Had there been no interest conflicts between 2 nations; there would still have been interest conflicts between leftists and rightists.

What abt the otherwise?

Had there been no interest conflicts between 2 ideological groups would there have been interest conflicts between 2 nations and 2 ethnic communities in Cyprus?

Most probablyi Yes...


You see nothing wrong as a Turkish Cyprıot with your community coming under the autocratic rule of an organisation that was neither elected by nor accountable to that community? OK. Fine.
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Postby insan » Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:44 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:
insan wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:I have found an English translation of part of the interview given to Milliyet by Bülent Ecevit on November 13, 1990, in which he spoke of how he first learned of the existence of the Special War Department at a time when he was prime-minister:

http://www.info-turk.be/169.E.htm

"In 1974, just before the military operation in Cyprus, I was informed for the first time about the existence of a department in charge of special warfare within the headquarters of the Turkish general staff. They were asking for money. When I inquired who had funded the department until then I was told that it was financed by the United States," said Ecevit.
"When I insisted, a secret briefing on the functioning of this organization was given to me and the then defense minister Hasan Esat Isik. We were told the Special Warfare Department was an organization composed of 'volunteer patriots.' They said its headquarters was located in the same building as the US military aid delegation to Turkey. I was told also that the organization had secret weapons depots. Its members were trained in special warfare techniques. If and when the country was invaded by an aggressor the members of this clandestine organization were supposed to launch counter-guerrilla warfare against the invaders. I was told the organization was made up of mainly young people but that when they got elder they might eventually become politicians.
"This was a secret weapon. I thought we should act swiftly and put measures into force against the organization's use. But that was at the time of the Cyprus operation. Nothing was done."



Ecevit as a leftist might not have known abt this organization until he asked abt it...

Allied Coordination Committee
Secret right-wing paramilitary network in Western Europe, set up in the 1950s to arm guerrillas chosen from the civilian population in the event of Soviet invasion or communist takeover. Initiated and partly funded by the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), it was linked to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and operated by the secret services and armed forces of member countries. Its past or present existence was officially acknowledged in 1990 by Belgium, France, (West) Germany, Greece, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, and Portugal, who each said that the branches had been or would be closed down.

The network was reported to have links with right-wing extremist groups – at least in Belgium and Italy. Switzerland officially stated in 1990 that its secret resistance army, P-26, had no links with the Allied Coordination Committee, although it had cooperated with British secret services.



http://encyclopedia.farlex.com/Allied+C ... +Committee

As for it's links with TMT and activities in Cyprus; apart from their merciless political stance against leftists; in general, i see nothing wrong with organizing TCs under TMT against EOKA and struggling for TC/Turkish interests in Cyprus.

Some may claim they were struggling for the interests of US or other allies... It is partly true because they were in the same alliance and thus also serving the interests of US and all others in the same alliance.

If so, wasn't Greece in the same alliance? She was in the same alliance but there were interest conflicts between GCs/Greeks and TCs/Turks over Cyprus.

Had there been no interest conflicts between 2 nations; there would still have been interest conflicts between leftists and rightists.

What abt the otherwise?

Had there been no interest conflicts between 2 ideological groups would there have been interest conflicts between 2 nations and 2 ethnic communities in Cyprus?

Most probablyi Yes...


You see nothing wrong as a Turkish Cyprıot with your community coming under the autocratic rule of an organisation that was neither elected by nor accountable to that community? OK. Fine.


That was the only possible organizing method under then the circumstances, Tim. U can't play football at the beach by dreaming wembley stadium.

Try evaluating the events from a non-political window by taking into consideration then the circumstances. That's what I'm trying to do...
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Postby Tim Drayton » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:14 pm

insan wrote:That was the only possible organizing method under then the circumstances, Tim. U can't play football at the beach by dreaming wembley stadium.

Try evaluating the events from a non-political window by taking into consideration then the circumstances. That's what I'm trying to do...


OK, if you say so. You were here then, I wasn't. I somehow can't help thinking that if the leadership on both sides in 1964 had demonstrated a will to embark on a process of peace and reconciliation this would better have served the interests of ordinary Turkish Cypriots. I don't see that the TMT was doing anything to move in that direction. Still, if you feel that this was the best possible leadership under the circumstances, who am I to contradict you.
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Postby YFred » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:27 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:
insan wrote:That was the only possible organizing method under then the circumstances, Tim. U can't play football at the beach by dreaming wembley stadium.

Try evaluating the events from a non-political window by taking into consideration then the circumstances. That's what I'm trying to do...


OK, if you say so. You were here then, I wasn't. I somehow can't help thinking that if the leadership on both sides in 1964 had demonstrated a will to embark on a process of peace and reconciliation this would better have served the interests of ordinary Turkish Cypriots. I don't see that the TMT was doing anything to move in that direction. Still, if you feel that this was the best possible leadership under the circumstances, who am I to contradict you.

Tim, I would agree with you but knowing what we know now regarding the plans that Makarios and Grivas had and were hell bent on enosis and their dreaded akritas plan, I really do not think that any other TC action would have made any difference.
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Postby insan » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:28 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:
insan wrote:That was the only possible organizing method under then the circumstances, Tim. U can't play football at the beach by dreaming wembley stadium.

Try evaluating the events from a non-political window by taking into consideration then the circumstances. That's what I'm trying to do...


OK, if you say so. You were here then, I wasn't. I somehow can't help thinking that if the leadership on both sides in 1964 had demonstrated a will to embark on a process of peace and reconciliation this would better have served the interests of ordinary Turkish Cypriots. I don't see that the TMT was doing anything to move in that direction. Still, if you feel that this was the best possible leadership under the circumstances, who am I to contradict you.


I agree with u that if the leadership of both sides and the pressure groups behind them had demonstrated a will to embark on a process of peace and reconciliation this would better have served the interests of ordinary Turkish Cypriots.

Even, i personally accepted the hastily rejection of Makarios' 13 points was a mistake made by TC leadership and Turkey. After 4 years of inter-communal strife and bloody armed struggle; with mediation of UN and US in the background, in 1967 they began talking 13 points of Makarios and counter-proposals of TC side.

Thoug what's happened in the end? Just a big waste of time because Makarios and the pressure groups behind him didn't want to grant TC community anything more than a standard minority status.

Even though there was no inter-communal armed struggle during the 7 years from 1967-1974; TCs were in fear of an unknown future... Do u know what it means being under such circumstances for 7 years after a bloody inter communal strife?
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Postby Nikitas » Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:24 pm

Sheepsking was a branch of the armed forces, with pretty much the same objective: to form a guerrilla cadre in case the country was invaded and taken over by the Warsaw Pact. The personnel were former special forces people.

There is nothing wrong in the planning for the evenutality of a hostile take over. But somehow the idea that such an organization was funded by a foreign government puts a different light on it. To appreciate how weird it sounds just think of it the other way round- a European nation funding a secret organization in the USA which stockpiles arms and has a paramilitary members just in case the USA is taken over by an enemy.

Now as to the other issue, whether TMT was a tool of survival for the TCs or subversion of the RoC we do not know enough to come to a sound conclusion. I too will use Packard as a source and cite his opinion, formed from first hand experience, that both Makarios and Kutchuk wanted an end to hostilities but could not control their paramilitaries. So the next question is who controlled and who armed these paramilitaries and who paid the salaries of those fully employed in running them. And now we have come full circle to organizations like the sheepskins and the special war departments with their secret funds and to that unforgettable reminder of acting secretary Ball addressing Packard- you have it all wrong here, the goal is partition.

But somehow these anglosaxon inspired plans never seem to work out as intended. It is ironic that they had never taken into account Europe, and how it has managed to incorporate the larger of the two commuities and most of the island's territory without resorting to any dirty tricks, in a move that rules out enosis forever, while the TCs got taxim and enosis with Turkey, and now that they got it they do not much like it.
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Postby Tim Drayton » Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:41 pm

Nikitas wrote:Sheepsking was a branch of the armed forces, with pretty much the same objective: to form a guerrilla cadre in case the country was invaded and taken over by the Warsaw Pact. The personnel were former special forces people.

There is nothing wrong in the planning for the evenutality of a hostile take over. But somehow the idea that such an organization was funded by a foreign government puts a different light on it. To appreciate how weird it sounds just think of it the other way round- a European nation funding a secret organization in the USA which stockpiles arms and has a paramilitary members just in case the USA is taken over by an enemy.

Now as to the other issue, whether TMT was a tool of survival for the TCs or subversion of the RoC we do not know enough to come to a sound conclusion. I too will use Packard as a source and cite his opinion, formed from first hand experience, that both Makarios and Kutchuk wanted an end to hostilities but could not control their paramilitaries. So the next question is who controlled and who armed these paramilitaries and who paid the salaries of those fully employed in running them. And now we have come full circle to organizations like the sheepskins and the special war departments with their secret funds and to that unforgettable reminder of acting secretary Ball addressing Packard- you have it all wrong here, the goal is partition.

But somehow these anglosaxon inspired plans never seem to work out as intended. It is ironic that they had never taken into account Europe, and how it has managed to incorporate the larger of the two commuities and most of the island's territory without resorting to any dirty tricks, in a move that rules out enosis forever, while the TCs got taxim and enosis with Turkey, and now that they got it they do not much like it.


The weird thing is that both organisations seem to have had the same paymaster!
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Postby Tim Drayton » Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:43 pm

insan wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:
insan wrote:That was the only possible organizing method under then the circumstances, Tim. U can't play football at the beach by dreaming wembley stadium.

Try evaluating the events from a non-political window by taking into consideration then the circumstances. That's what I'm trying to do...


OK, if you say so. You were here then, I wasn't. I somehow can't help thinking that if the leadership on both sides in 1964 had demonstrated a will to embark on a process of peace and reconciliation this would better have served the interests of ordinary Turkish Cypriots. I don't see that the TMT was doing anything to move in that direction. Still, if you feel that this was the best possible leadership under the circumstances, who am I to contradict you.


I agree with u that if the leadership of both sides and the pressure groups behind them had demonstrated a will to embark on a process of peace and reconciliation this would better have served the interests of ordinary Turkish Cypriots.

Even, i personally accepted the hastily rejection of Makarios' 13 points was a mistake made by TC leadership and Turkey. After 4 years of inter-communal strife and bloody armed struggle; with mediation of UN and US in the background, in 1967 they began talking 13 points of Makarios and counter-proposals of TC side.

Thoug what's happened in the end? Just a big waste of time because Makarios and the pressure groups behind him didn't want to grant TC community anything more than a standard minority status.

Even though there was no inter-communal armed struggle during the 7 years from 1967-1974; TCs were in fear of an unknown future... Do u know what it means being under such circumstances for 7 years after a bloody inter communal strife?


No I don't and frankly I even find it hard even to imagine what it must have been like. It is all so sad.
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Postby insan » Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:45 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:
Nikitas wrote:Sheepsking was a branch of the armed forces, with pretty much the same objective: to form a guerrilla cadre in case the country was invaded and taken over by the Warsaw Pact. The personnel were former special forces people.

There is nothing wrong in the planning for the evenutality of a hostile take over. But somehow the idea that such an organization was funded by a foreign government puts a different light on it. To appreciate how weird it sounds just think of it the other way round- a European nation funding a secret organization in the USA which stockpiles arms and has a paramilitary members just in case the USA is taken over by an enemy.

Now as to the other issue, whether TMT was a tool of survival for the TCs or subversion of the RoC we do not know enough to come to a sound conclusion. I too will use Packard as a source and cite his opinion, formed from first hand experience, that both Makarios and Kutchuk wanted an end to hostilities but could not control their paramilitaries. So the next question is who controlled and who armed these paramilitaries and who paid the salaries of those fully employed in running them. And now we have come full circle to organizations like the sheepskins and the special war departments with their secret funds and to that unforgettable reminder of acting secretary Ball addressing Packard- you have it all wrong here, the goal is partition.

But somehow these anglosaxon inspired plans never seem to work out as intended. It is ironic that they had never taken into account Europe, and how it has managed to incorporate the larger of the two commuities and most of the island's territory without resorting to any dirty tricks, in a move that rules out enosis forever, while the TCs got taxim and enosis with Turkey, and now that they got it they do not much like it.


The weird thing is that both organisations seem to have had the same paymaster!


Therefor, I don't think it was in interests of US to pay both organizations to cause destabilization of Nato! :wink: U began to getting it correct, Tim. :wink:
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