Cyprus-Forum.com

[YFred]

In his eyewitness account based on a visit to the Louroujina on 7 February 1974, Martin Packard says on page 151 of Getting It Wrong :

The whole town, swollen by refugees to about four thousand, was seething with armed men.

Since when does an eyewitness’ “population count” via inspection form credible evidence?

http://thecyprusproblem.100webspace.net ... icle29.htm

You can do better than that Tim...

Given that Packard made repeated visits to Louroujina in an official capacity, his impressions carry some weight, in my estimation. It is hardly feasible for an official census to be conducted in the middle of an ethnic conflict.

If I may add to that, by whom and for what purpose, then of course the pattern is realised.
A bit of ethnic cleansing reduction activity, ey GR, you wily old shilla.

[Get Real!]

In his eyewitness account based on a visit to the Louroujina on 7 February 1974, Martin Packard says on page 151 of Getting It Wrong :

The whole town, swollen by refugees to about four thousand, was seething with armed men.

Since when does an eyewitness’ “population count” via inspection form credible evidence?

http://thecyprusproblem.100webspace.net ... icle29.htm

You can do better than that Tim...

Given that Packard made repeated visits to Louroujina in an official capacity, his impressions carry some weight, in my estimation. It is hardly feasible for an official census to be conducted in the middle of an ethnic conflict.

If I may add to that, by whom and for what purpose, then of course the pattern is realised.
A bit of ethnic cleansing reduction activity, ey GR, you wily old shilla.

Y-Fronts, your coffee shop “contributions” to the CyProb is a reflection of the status of the gypsy ghetto we called “Lourougina”!

[insan]

Just goes to show how wrong some people can be. In Lurucina there was 2000 refugees and if they could most would have returned to their villages, if they had security in their homes. They chose to wait until 74 and move to the north.
It needs no further explanation.

From... “Populations of the Occupied Villages and Districts”

Louroudjina:

GC 1963......GC 1974......TC 1963......TC 1974

......0................0..............1547...........1963

http://www.greece.org/cyprus/Villages.htm

From 1963 to 1974, the population of Louroujina increased by just 416 people!

Now, without knowing how many of these 416 were part of the natural birth rate increase, I wonder how many of these were “refugees” Y-Fronts?

Your 2000 figure looks more like you’ve taken the whole population of Louroujina and given them refugee status!

You have got the wrong figures there. It is a documented fact that refugees from Louroujina [Akıncılar, Λουρουτζίνα] were resettled in Argaki [Akçay, Αργάκι] following the 1974 invasion. The 1974 population figure that you quote is obviously the population after the refugees were resettled.

In his eyewitness account based on a visit to the Louroujina on 7 February 1974, Martin Packard says on page 151 of Getting It Wrong :

The whole town, swollen by refugees to about four thousand, was seething with armed men.

I am glad that our figures with Packard tally up, so 2 fingers to GR and his crap roc figures.
GR knows it all Tim. What do I know; I only lived there at the time.

Not that I agree with Packards comment. I think he meant to say that it was seething with men with soldier uniforms. Arms came much later via smuggling.

There were 2 holes dug up in the ground the size of a grave about 2 feet deep, where the arms were stashed up. That was the amount of arms in 1963 before they were able to smuggle more arms into the village.

I think you are being a bit disingenous about arms, though. Surely the Turkish deep state had been clandestinely flooding the island with arms well in advance the conflict that it expected to erupt and helped to foment.

Tim, how did u arrive to a conclusion that it was Turkish deep state flooding Cyprus with arms? Everything was under control of official Turkish government. Turks didn't have a man like Grivas. TCs didn't have any doubts and feelings like of being sold out by their "motherland" with 60s agreements.

I can refer you to the following article by the highly respected Turkish investigative journalist Soner Yalçın:

http://www.turkishforum.com.tr/tr/conte ... ni-okuyun/

It is quite a long article but I would like to post a translation of it here some time if I can find time.

Here's a potentially more accurate article directly from the mouth of Tansu.

http://www.tumgazeteler.com/?a=2839609

[YFred]

In his eyewitness account based on a visit to the Louroujina on 7 February 1974, Martin Packard says on page 151 of Getting It Wrong :

The whole town, swollen by refugees to about four thousand, was seething with armed men.

Since when does an eyewitness’ “population count” via inspection form credible evidence?

http://thecyprusproblem.100webspace.net ... icle29.htm

You can do better than that Tim...

Given that Packard made repeated visits to Louroujina in an official capacity, his impressions carry some weight, in my estimation. It is hardly feasible for an official census to be conducted in the middle of an ethnic conflict.

If I may add to that, by whom and for what purpose, then of course the pattern is realised.
A bit of ethnic cleansing reduction activity, ey GR, you wily old shilla.

Y-Fronts, your coffee shop “contributions” to the CyProb is a reflection of the status of the gypsy ghetto we called “Lourougina”!

You can call it anything you like dear boy, it's more accurate than the roc. 2 fingers to both of you. Oh, and the rest of your inimitable gang too.
And BTW it’s Lu-ru-ci-na. You illiterate swine.

[Get Real!]

In his eyewitness account based on a visit to the Louroujina on 7 February 1974, Martin Packard says on page 151 of Getting It Wrong :

The whole town, swollen by refugees to about four thousand, was seething with armed men.

Since when does an eyewitness’ “population count” via inspection form credible evidence?

http://thecyprusproblem.100webspace.net ... icle29.htm

You can do better than that Tim...

Given that Packard made repeated visits to Louroujina in an official capacity, his impressions carry some weight, in my estimation. It is hardly feasible for an official census to be conducted in the middle of an ethnic conflict.

If I may add to that, by whom and for what purpose, then of course the pattern is realised.
A bit of ethnic cleansing reduction activity, ey GR, you wily old shilla.

Y-Fronts, your coffee shop “contributions” to the CyProb is a reflection of the status of the gypsy ghetto we called “Lourougina”!

You can call it anything you like dear boy, it's more accurate than the roc. 2 fingers to both of you. Oh, and the rest of your inimitable gang too.
And BTW it’s Lu-ru-ci-na. You illiterate swine.

If and when I want a cauldron polished or a donkey trained I’ll give you a shout Y-Fronts, but don’t worry too much about political forums because they’re not your forte…

[YFred]

In his eyewitness account based on a visit to the Louroujina on 7 February 1974, Martin Packard says on page 151 of Getting It Wrong :

The whole town, swollen by refugees to about four thousand, was seething with armed men.

Since when does an eyewitness’ “population count” via inspection form credible evidence?

http://thecyprusproblem.100webspace.net ... icle29.htm

You can do better than that Tim...

Given that Packard made repeated visits to Louroujina in an official capacity, his impressions carry some weight, in my estimation. It is hardly feasible for an official census to be conducted in the middle of an ethnic conflict.

If I may add to that, by whom and for what purpose, then of course the pattern is realised.
A bit of ethnic cleansing reduction activity, ey GR, you wily old shilla.

Y-Fronts, your coffee shop “contributions” to the CyProb is a reflection of the status of the gypsy ghetto we called “Lourougina”!

You can call it anything you like dear boy, it's more accurate than the roc. 2 fingers to both of you. Oh, and the rest of your inimitable gang too.
And BTW it’s Lu-ru-ci-na. You illiterate swine.

If and when I want a cauldron polished or a donkey trained I’ll give you a shout Y-Fronts, but don’t worry too much about political forums because they’re not your forte…

... and when I need a stable lad, I'll know who to turn to old boy.
Sorry, I didn’t realise we were having a political discussions. I was under the impression we were discussing the merit of the figures we have quoted with my figures corroborated by a reputable human being as opposed to a website created by non other than thou.

[Tim Drayton]

Just goes to show how wrong some people can be. In Lurucina there was 2000 refugees and if they could most would have returned to their villages, if they had security in their homes. They chose to wait until 74 and move to the north.
It needs no further explanation.

From... “Populations of the Occupied Villages and Districts”

Louroudjina:

GC 1963......GC 1974......TC 1963......TC 1974

......0................0..............1547...........1963

http://www.greece.org/cyprus/Villages.htm

From 1963 to 1974, the population of Louroujina increased by just 416 people!

Now, without knowing how many of these 416 were part of the natural birth rate increase, I wonder how many of these were “refugees” Y-Fronts?

Your 2000 figure looks more like you’ve taken the whole population of Louroujina and given them refugee status!

You have got the wrong figures there. It is a documented fact that refugees from Louroujina [Akıncılar, Λουρουτζίνα] were resettled in Argaki [Akçay, Αργάκι] following the 1974 invasion. The 1974 population figure that you quote is obviously the population after the refugees were resettled.

In his eyewitness account based on a visit to the Louroujina on 7 February 1974, Martin Packard says on page 151 of Getting It Wrong :

The whole town, swollen by refugees to about four thousand, was seething with armed men.

I am glad that our figures with Packard tally up, so 2 fingers to GR and his crap roc figures.
GR knows it all Tim. What do I know; I only lived there at the time.

Not that I agree with Packards comment. I think he meant to say that it was seething with men with soldier uniforms. Arms came much later via smuggling.

There were 2 holes dug up in the ground the size of a grave about 2 feet deep, where the arms were stashed up. That was the amount of arms in 1963 before they were able to smuggle more arms into the village.

I think you are being a bit disingenous about arms, though. Surely the Turkish deep state had been clandestinely flooding the island with arms well in advance the conflict that it expected to erupt and helped to foment.

Tim, how did u arrive to a conclusion that it was Turkish deep state flooding Cyprus with arms? Everything was under control of official Turkish government. Turks didn't have a man like Grivas. TCs didn't have any doubts and feelings like of being sold out by their "motherland" with 60s agreements.

I can refer you to the following article by the highly respected Turkish investigative journalist Soner Yalçın:

http://www.turkishforum.com.tr/tr/conte ... ni-okuyun/

It is quite a long article but I would like to post a translation of it here some time if I can find time.

Here's a potentially more accurate article directly from the mouth of Tansu.

http://www.tumgazeteler.com/?a=2839609

Tansu in the article admits that the Special War Department - the Turkish version of the various Gladio/sheepskin secret organisations that were set up in NATO front-line states and provided with secret arms caches - established and supported the TMT.

[insan]

Just goes to show how wrong some people can be. In Lurucina there was 2000 refugees and if they could most would have returned to their villages, if they had security in their homes. They chose to wait until 74 and move to the north.
It needs no further explanation.

From... “Populations of the Occupied Villages and Districts”

Louroudjina:

GC 1963......GC 1974......TC 1963......TC 1974

......0................0..............1547...........1963

http://www.greece.org/cyprus/Villages.htm

From 1963 to 1974, the population of Louroujina increased by just 416 people!

Now, without knowing how many of these 416 were part of the natural birth rate increase, I wonder how many of these were “refugees” Y-Fronts?

Your 2000 figure looks more like you’ve taken the whole population of Louroujina and given them refugee status!

You have got the wrong figures there. It is a documented fact that refugees from Louroujina [Akıncılar, Λουρουτζίνα] were resettled in Argaki [Akçay, Αργάκι] following the 1974 invasion. The 1974 population figure that you quote is obviously the population after the refugees were resettled.

In his eyewitness account based on a visit to the Louroujina on 7 February 1974, Martin Packard says on page 151 of Getting It Wrong :

The whole town, swollen by refugees to about four thousand, was seething with armed men.

I am glad that our figures with Packard tally up, so 2 fingers to GR and his crap roc figures.
GR knows it all Tim. What do I know; I only lived there at the time.

Not that I agree with Packards comment. I think he meant to say that it was seething with men with soldier uniforms. Arms came much later via smuggling.

There were 2 holes dug up in the ground the size of a grave about 2 feet deep, where the arms were stashed up. That was the amount of arms in 1963 before they were able to smuggle more arms into the village.

I think you are being a bit disingenous about arms, though. Surely the Turkish deep state had been clandestinely flooding the island with arms well in advance the conflict that it expected to erupt and helped to foment.

Tim, how did u arrive to a conclusion that it was Turkish deep state flooding Cyprus with arms? Everything was under control of official Turkish government. Turks didn't have a man like Grivas. TCs didn't have any doubts and feelings like of being sold out by their "motherland" with 60s agreements.

I can refer you to the following article by the highly respected Turkish investigative journalist Soner Yalçın:

http://www.turkishforum.com.tr/tr/conte ... ni-okuyun/

It is quite a long article but I would like to post a translation of it here some time if I can find time.

Here's a potentially more accurate article directly from the mouth of Tansu.

http://www.tumgazeteler.com/?a=2839609

Tansu in the article admits that the Special War Department - the Turkish version of the various Gladio/sheepskin secret organisations that were set up in NATO front-line states and provided with secret arms caches - established and supported the TMT.

Yes, he also states that Americans were not informed abt their activities in Cyprus. He also states that "Özel Harp Dairesi" was an establishment subordinated to Turkish General Staff that is subordinated to Prime ministry of Turkey.

What's your point, in connection with TMT and their activities?

[Tim Drayton]

Just goes to show how wrong some people can be. In Lurucina there was 2000 refugees and if they could most would have returned to their villages, if they had security in their homes. They chose to wait until 74 and move to the north.
It needs no further explanation.

From... “Populations of the Occupied Villages and Districts”

Louroudjina:

GC 1963......GC 1974......TC 1963......TC 1974

......0................0..............1547...........1963

http://www.greece.org/cyprus/Villages.htm

From 1963 to 1974, the population of Louroujina increased by just 416 people!

Now, without knowing how many of these 416 were part of the natural birth rate increase, I wonder how many of these were “refugees” Y-Fronts?

Your 2000 figure looks more like you’ve taken the whole population of Louroujina and given them refugee status!

You have got the wrong figures there. It is a documented fact that refugees from Louroujina [Akıncılar, Λουρουτζίνα] were resettled in Argaki [Akçay, Αργάκι] following the 1974 invasion. The 1974 population figure that you quote is obviously the population after the refugees were resettled.

In his eyewitness account based on a visit to the Louroujina on 7 February 1974, Martin Packard says on page 151 of Getting It Wrong :

The whole town, swollen by refugees to about four thousand, was seething with armed men.

I am glad that our figures with Packard tally up, so 2 fingers to GR and his crap roc figures.
GR knows it all Tim. What do I know; I only lived there at the time.

Not that I agree with Packards comment. I think he meant to say that it was seething with men with soldier uniforms. Arms came much later via smuggling.

There were 2 holes dug up in the ground the size of a grave about 2 feet deep, where the arms were stashed up. That was the amount of arms in 1963 before they were able to smuggle more arms into the village.

I think you are being a bit disingenous about arms, though. Surely the Turkish deep state had been clandestinely flooding the island with arms well in advance the conflict that it expected to erupt and helped to foment.

Tim, how did u arrive to a conclusion that it was Turkish deep state flooding Cyprus with arms? Everything was under control of official Turkish government. Turks didn't have a man like Grivas. TCs didn't have any doubts and feelings like of being sold out by their "motherland" with 60s agreements.

I can refer you to the following article by the highly respected Turkish investigative journalist Soner Yalçın:

http://www.turkishforum.com.tr/tr/conte ... ni-okuyun/

It is quite a long article but I would like to post a translation of it here some time if I can find time.

Here's a potentially more accurate article directly from the mouth of Tansu.

http://www.tumgazeteler.com/?a=2839609

Tansu in the article admits that the Special War Department - the Turkish version of the various Gladio/sheepskin secret organisations that were set up in NATO front-line states and provided with secret arms caches - established and supported the TMT.

Yes, he also states that Americans were not informed abt their activities in Cyprus. He also states that "Özel Harp Dairesi" was an establishment subordinated to Turkish General Staff that is subordinated to Prime ministry of Turkey.

What's your point, in connection with TMT and their activities?

Bülent Ecevit described in an interview published in Milliyet in 1990 how in July of 1974 the Chief of General Staff approached him with a request for a huge amount of money. When Ecevit asked what the money was for, he was told that it was for the 'Special War Department'. This was the first time that any elected politician in Turkey had ever heard of the existence of this organisation. Yes, it was set up under the General Staff, but as a clandestine organisation. It was essentially established by the Americans with a specific purpose in mind. Over the years it mutated into the cancer known as the 'deep state' which stretched its tentacles in many directions and seriously hindered the development of democracy in Turkey. It has, for example, been responsible for large numbers of extrajudicial killings.

My point about the TMT is that it established an iron grip on the Turkish Cypriot community and when you consider that the TMT itself was set up by the Turkish deep state, a clandestine entity which is/was in practice accountable to nobody, this was surely a disasterous development for that community.

By the way, Ismail Tansu has written a whole book called Aslında Kimse Uymuyordu (Actually Nobody Was Sleeping) about the Special War Department's engagement in Cyprus.

[insan]

Just goes to show how wrong some people can be. In Lurucina there was 2000 refugees and if they could most would have returned to their villages, if they had security in their homes. They chose to wait until 74 and move to the north.
It needs no further explanation.

From... “Populations of the Occupied Villages and Districts”

Louroudjina:

GC 1963......GC 1974......TC 1963......TC 1974

......0................0..............1547...........1963

http://www.greece.org/cyprus/Villages.htm

From 1963 to 1974, the population of Louroujina increased by just 416 people!

Now, without knowing how many of these 416 were part of the natural birth rate increase, I wonder how many of these were “refugees” Y-Fronts?

Your 2000 figure looks more like you’ve taken the whole population of Louroujina and given them refugee status!

You have got the wrong figures there. It is a documented fact that refugees from Louroujina [Akıncılar, Λουρουτζίνα] were resettled in Argaki [Akçay, Αργάκι] following the 1974 invasion. The 1974 population figure that you quote is obviously the population after the refugees were resettled.

In his eyewitness account based on a visit to the Louroujina on 7 February 1974, Martin Packard says on page 151 of Getting It Wrong :

The whole town, swollen by refugees to about four thousand, was seething with armed men.

I am glad that our figures with Packard tally up, so 2 fingers to GR and his crap roc figures.
GR knows it all Tim. What do I know; I only lived there at the time.

Not that I agree with Packards comment. I think he meant to say that it was seething with men with soldier uniforms. Arms came much later via smuggling.

There were 2 holes dug up in the ground the size of a grave about 2 feet deep, where the arms were stashed up. That was the amount of arms in 1963 before they were able to smuggle more arms into the village.

I think you are being a bit disingenous about arms, though. Surely the Turkish deep state had been clandestinely flooding the island with arms well in advance the conflict that it expected to erupt and helped to foment.

Tim, how did u arrive to a conclusion that it was Turkish deep state flooding Cyprus with arms? Everything was under control of official Turkish government. Turks didn't have a man like Grivas. TCs didn't have any doubts and feelings like of being sold out by their "motherland" with 60s agreements.

I can refer you to the following article by the highly respected Turkish investigative journalist Soner Yalçın:

http://www.turkishforum.com.tr/tr/conte ... ni-okuyun/

It is quite a long article but I would like to post a translation of it here some time if I can find time.

Here's a potentially more accurate article directly from the mouth of Tansu.

http://www.tumgazeteler.com/?a=2839609

Tansu in the article admits that the Special War Department - the Turkish version of the various Gladio/sheepskin secret organisations that were set up in NATO front-line states and provided with secret arms caches - established and supported the TMT.

Yes, he also states that Americans were not informed abt their activities in Cyprus. He also states that "Özel Harp Dairesi" was an establishment subordinated to Turkish General Staff that is subordinated to Prime ministry of Turkey.

What's your point, in connection with TMT and their activities?

Bülent Ecevit described in an interview published in Milliyet in 1990 how in July of 1974 the Chief of General Staff approached him with a request for a huge amount of money. When Ecevit asked what the money was for, he was told that it was for the 'Special War Department'. This was the first time that any elected politician in Turkey had ever heard of the existence of this organisation. Yes, it was set up under the General Staff, but as a clandestine organisation. It was essentially established by the Americans with a specific purpose in mind. Over the years it mutated into the cancer known as the 'deep state' which stretched its tentacles in many directions and seriously hindered the development of democracy in Turkey. It has, for example, been responsible for large numbers of extrajudicial killings.

My point about the TMT is that it established an iron grip on the Turkish Cypriot community and when you consider that the TMT itself was set up by the Turkish deep state, a clandestine entity which is/was in practice accountable to nobody, this was surely a disasterous development for that community.

By the way, Ismail Tansu has written a whole book called Aslında Kimse Uyumuyordu (Actually Nobody Was Sleeping) about the Special War Department's engagement in Cyprus.

So, stupid General revealed the existence of "secret" "özel harp dairesi" by asking huge amount of money from Prime Minister?

http://www.tumgazeteler.com/?a=1284635

“27 Eylül 1952 tarihinde 17 Sayılı ve Milli Savunma Yüksek Kurulu(Başbakan ve ilgili bakanların imzalarıyla) onaylı kararı ile kurulan bu teşkilatımızın, kurulduğu tarihten bugüne kadar söz konusu yazı ve yorumlarda bahsi geçen karanlık olaylarla hiçbir[b] kurumsal ilişkisi olmamıştır.[/b]


Tim u need to learn more abt Özel Harp Dairesi... maybe some of the members of "özel harp dairesi" did somethings wrong and illegally in some regions of Turkey... but maybe... don't mix allegations with facts regarding "özel harp dairesi", please...

http://www.aktifhaber.com/news_detail.php?id=135741


http://www.habervitrini.com/haber.asp?id=204133


There r too many contradictions between the stories and allegations regarding Özel Harp Dairesi.


------------------0000000000000000000----------------


Tim, if u have checked the telegram exchanges and converstaion of US officials and Turkish officials, 1964-1968; u should have noticed that there wasn't anything out of control of GOT regarding the actions of TMT.

So, either the GOT was "deepstate" itself or there wasn't a "deepstate".