Cyprus-Forum.com

[YFred]

Just goes to show how wrong some people can be. In Lurucina there was 2000 refugees and if they could most would have returned to their villages, if they had security in their homes. They chose to wait until 74 and move to the north.
It needs no further explanation.

From... “Populations of the Occupied Villages and Districts”

Louroudjina:

GC 1963......GC 1974......TC 1963......TC 1974

......0................0..............1547...........1963

http://www.greece.org/cyprus/Villages.htm

From 1963 to 1974, the population of Louroujina increased by just 416 people!

Now, without knowing how many of these 416 were part of the natural birth rate increase, I wonder how many of these were “refugees” Y-Fronts?

Your 2000 figure looks more like you’ve taken the whole population of Louroujina and given them refugee status!

You have got the wrong figures there. It is a documented fact that refugees from Louroujina [Akıncılar, Λουρουτζίνα] were resettled in Argaki [Akçay, Αργάκι] following the 1974 invasion. The 1974 population figure that you quote is obviously the population after the refugees were resettled.

In his eyewitness account based on a visit to the Louroujina on 7 February 1974, Martin Packard says on page 151 of Getting It Wrong :

The whole town, swollen by refugees to about four thousand, was seething with armed men.

I am glad that our figures with Packard tally up, so 2 fingers to GR and his crap roc figures.
GR knows it all Tim. What do I know; I only lived there at the time.

Not that I agree with Packards comment. I think he meant to say that it was seething with men with soldier uniforms. Arms came much later via smuggling.

There were 2 holes dug up in the ground the size of a grave about 2 feet deep, where the arms were stashed up. That was the amount of arms in 1963 before they were able to smuggle more arms into the village.

I think you are being a bit disingenous about arms, though. Surely the Turkish deep state had been clandestinely flooding the island with arms well in advance the conflict that it expected to erupt and helped to foment.

Tim, the arms were smuggled in after 63. The mobilisation was also after 1963. I remember very clearly the day the troubles started. As my house was on the edge of the village, about 6 men were gathered outside. Only 2 had shotguns the rest had farming implements. There were no soldiers. Its only after that we had arms smuggleing and creation of Mucahids as fighting force. Only TMT men had arms at that time and they were very light, hand guns and some rifles.
What Packards witnessed was few months after the troubles flared. They were incredibly unprepared for the troubles. It's only when a a major from Turkey arrived that they became a fighting force.

[Tim Drayton]

Just goes to show how wrong some people can be. In Lurucina there was 2000 refugees and if they could most would have returned to their villages, if they had security in their homes. They chose to wait until 74 and move to the north.
It needs no further explanation.

From... “Populations of the Occupied Villages and Districts”

Louroudjina:

GC 1963......GC 1974......TC 1963......TC 1974

......0................0..............1547...........1963

http://www.greece.org/cyprus/Villages.htm

From 1963 to 1974, the population of Louroujina increased by just 416 people!

Now, without knowing how many of these 416 were part of the natural birth rate increase, I wonder how many of these were “refugees” Y-Fronts?

Your 2000 figure looks more like you’ve taken the whole population of Louroujina and given them refugee status!

You have got the wrong figures there. It is a documented fact that refugees from Louroujina [Akıncılar, Λουρουτζίνα] were resettled in Argaki [Akçay, Αργάκι] following the 1974 invasion. The 1974 population figure that you quote is obviously the population after the refugees were resettled.

In his eyewitness account based on a visit to the Louroujina on 7 February 1974, Martin Packard says on page 151 of Getting It Wrong :

The whole town, swollen by refugees to about four thousand, was seething with armed men.

I am glad that our figures with Packard tally up, so 2 fingers to GR and his crap roc figures.
GR knows it all Tim. What do I know; I only lived there at the time.

Not that I agree with Packards comment. I think he meant to say that it was seething with men with soldier uniforms. Arms came much later via smuggling.

There were 2 holes dug up in the ground the size of a grave about 2 feet deep, where the arms were stashed up. That was the amount of arms in 1963 before they were able to smuggle more arms into the village.

I think you are being a bit disingenous about arms, though. Surely the Turkish deep state had been clandestinely flooding the island with arms well in advance the conflict that it expected to erupt and helped to foment.

Tim, the arms were smuggled in after 63. The mobilisation was also after 1963. I remember very clearly the day the troubles started. As my house was on the edge of the village, about 6 men were gathered outside. Only 2 had shotguns the rest had farming implements. There were no soldiers. Its only after that we had arms smuggleing and creation of Mucahids as fighting force. Only TMT men had arms at that time and they were very light, hand guns and some rifles.
What Packards witnessed was few months after the troubles flared. They were incredibly unprepared for the troubles. It's only when a a major from Turkey arrived that they became a fighting force.

I am not saying that Packard is the gospel truth, but I get the feeling that he is trying hard to provide a balanced, eye-witness account of what was going on. He notes that during the same visit, 7 February 1964 [sorry, the 1974 above is wrong] the Turkish major Sepici who was assigned to the tripartite peace-keeping force had an altercation with an individual there who ended up spitting in Sepici's face and, in a footnote, Packard says that he believes this other person to have been the sancaktar. If this is the major from Turkey you are referring to, according to Packard he was already there.

[insan]

Just goes to show how wrong some people can be. In Lurucina there was 2000 refugees and if they could most would have returned to their villages, if they had security in their homes. They chose to wait until 74 and move to the north.
It needs no further explanation.

From... “Populations of the Occupied Villages and Districts”

Louroudjina:

GC 1963......GC 1974......TC 1963......TC 1974

......0................0..............1547...........1963

http://www.greece.org/cyprus/Villages.htm

From 1963 to 1974, the population of Louroujina increased by just 416 people!

Now, without knowing how many of these 416 were part of the natural birth rate increase, I wonder how many of these were “refugees” Y-Fronts?

Your 2000 figure looks more like you’ve taken the whole population of Louroujina and given them refugee status!

You have got the wrong figures there. It is a documented fact that refugees from Louroujina [Akıncılar, Λουρουτζίνα] were resettled in Argaki [Akçay, Αργάκι] following the 1974 invasion. The 1974 population figure that you quote is obviously the population after the refugees were resettled.

In his eyewitness account based on a visit to the Louroujina on 7 February 1974, Martin Packard says on page 151 of Getting It Wrong :

The whole town, swollen by refugees to about four thousand, was seething with armed men.

I am glad that our figures with Packard tally up, so 2 fingers to GR and his crap roc figures.
GR knows it all Tim. What do I know; I only lived there at the time.

Not that I agree with Packards comment. I think he meant to say that it was seething with men with soldier uniforms. Arms came much later via smuggling.

There were 2 holes dug up in the ground the size of a grave about 2 feet deep, where the arms were stashed up. That was the amount of arms in 1963 before they were able to smuggle more arms into the village.

I think you are being a bit disingenous about arms, though. Surely the Turkish deep state had been clandestinely flooding the island with arms well in advance the conflict that it expected to erupt and helped to foment.

Tim, how did u arrive to a conclusion that it was Turkish deep state flooding Cyprus with arms? Everything was under control of official Turkish government. Turks didn't have a man like Grivas. TCs didn't have any doubts and feelings like of being sold out by their "motherland" with 60s agreements.

[YFred]

Just goes to show how wrong some people can be. In Lurucina there was 2000 refugees and if they could most would have returned to their villages, if they had security in their homes. They chose to wait until 74 and move to the north.
It needs no further explanation.

From... “Populations of the Occupied Villages and Districts”

Louroudjina:

GC 1963......GC 1974......TC 1963......TC 1974

......0................0..............1547...........1963

http://www.greece.org/cyprus/Villages.htm

From 1963 to 1974, the population of Louroujina increased by just 416 people!

Now, without knowing how many of these 416 were part of the natural birth rate increase, I wonder how many of these were “refugees” Y-Fronts?

Your 2000 figure looks more like you’ve taken the whole population of Louroujina and given them refugee status!

You have got the wrong figures there. It is a documented fact that refugees from Louroujina [Akıncılar, Λουρουτζίνα] were resettled in Argaki [Akçay, Αργάκι] following the 1974 invasion. The 1974 population figure that you quote is obviously the population after the refugees were resettled.

In his eyewitness account based on a visit to the Louroujina on 7 February 1974, Martin Packard says on page 151 of Getting It Wrong :

The whole town, swollen by refugees to about four thousand, was seething with armed men.

I am glad that our figures with Packard tally up, so 2 fingers to GR and his crap roc figures.
GR knows it all Tim. What do I know; I only lived there at the time.

Not that I agree with Packards comment. I think he meant to say that it was seething with men with soldier uniforms. Arms came much later via smuggling.

There were 2 holes dug up in the ground the size of a grave about 2 feet deep, where the arms were stashed up. That was the amount of arms in 1963 before they were able to smuggle more arms into the village.

I think you are being a bit disingenous about arms, though. Surely the Turkish deep state had been clandestinely flooding the island with arms well in advance the conflict that it expected to erupt and helped to foment.

Tim, the arms were smuggled in after 63. The mobilisation was also after 1963. I remember very clearly the day the troubles started. As my house was on the edge of the village, about 6 men were gathered outside. Only 2 had shotguns the rest had farming implements. There were no soldiers. Its only after that we had arms smuggleing and creation of Mucahids as fighting force. Only TMT men had arms at that time and they were very light, hand guns and some rifles.
What Packards witnessed was few months after the troubles flared. They were incredibly unprepared for the troubles. It's only when a a major from Turkey arrived that they became a fighting force.

I am not saying that Packard is the gospel truth, but I get the feeling that he is trying hard to provide a balanced, eye-witness account of what was going on. He notes that during the same visit, 7 February 1964 [sorry, the 1974 above is wrong] the Turkish major Sepici who was assigned to the tripartite peace-keeping force had an altercation with an individual there who ended up spitting in Sepici's face and, in a footnote, Packard says that he believes this other person to have been the sancaktar. If this is the major from Turkey you are referring to, according to Packard he was already there.

I don't know his name. I knew him as his code name Demir. But I have no doubt that he did what Packard said from what I know of him. He also had an altercation with my father and my father stood up to him and he didn't have the guts to carry out his threats.

I was referring to the day the troubles started in December. The Major was not in the village the day the troubles started.

[Tim Drayton]

Just goes to show how wrong some people can be. In Lurucina there was 2000 refugees and if they could most would have returned to their villages, if they had security in their homes. They chose to wait until 74 and move to the north.
It needs no further explanation.

From... “Populations of the Occupied Villages and Districts”

Louroudjina:

GC 1963......GC 1974......TC 1963......TC 1974

......0................0..............1547...........1963

http://www.greece.org/cyprus/Villages.htm

From 1963 to 1974, the population of Louroujina increased by just 416 people!

Now, without knowing how many of these 416 were part of the natural birth rate increase, I wonder how many of these were “refugees” Y-Fronts?

Your 2000 figure looks more like you’ve taken the whole population of Louroujina and given them refugee status!

You have got the wrong figures there. It is a documented fact that refugees from Louroujina [Akıncılar, Λουρουτζίνα] were resettled in Argaki [Akçay, Αργάκι] following the 1974 invasion. The 1974 population figure that you quote is obviously the population after the refugees were resettled.

In his eyewitness account based on a visit to the Louroujina on 7 February 1974, Martin Packard says on page 151 of Getting It Wrong :

The whole town, swollen by refugees to about four thousand, was seething with armed men.

I am glad that our figures with Packard tally up, so 2 fingers to GR and his crap roc figures.
GR knows it all Tim. What do I know; I only lived there at the time.

Not that I agree with Packards comment. I think he meant to say that it was seething with men with soldier uniforms. Arms came much later via smuggling.

There were 2 holes dug up in the ground the size of a grave about 2 feet deep, where the arms were stashed up. That was the amount of arms in 1963 before they were able to smuggle more arms into the village.

I think you are being a bit disingenous about arms, though. Surely the Turkish deep state had been clandestinely flooding the island with arms well in advance the conflict that it expected to erupt and helped to foment.

Tim, how did u arrive to a conclusion that it was Turkish deep state flooding Cyprus with arms? Everything was under control of official Turkish government. Turks didn't have a man like Grivas. TCs didn't have any doubts and feelings like of being sold out by their "motherland" with 60s agreements.

I can refer you to the following article by the highly respected Turkish investigative journalist Soner Yalçın:

http://www.turkishforum.com.tr/tr/conte ... ni-okuyun/

It is quite a long article but I would like to post a translation of it here some time if I can find time.

[insan]

Just goes to show how wrong some people can be. In Lurucina there was 2000 refugees and if they could most would have returned to their villages, if they had security in their homes. They chose to wait until 74 and move to the north.
It needs no further explanation.

From... “Populations of the Occupied Villages and Districts”

Louroudjina:

GC 1963......GC 1974......TC 1963......TC 1974

......0................0..............1547...........1963

http://www.greece.org/cyprus/Villages.htm

From 1963 to 1974, the population of Louroujina increased by just 416 people!

Now, without knowing how many of these 416 were part of the natural birth rate increase, I wonder how many of these were “refugees” Y-Fronts?

Your 2000 figure looks more like you’ve taken the whole population of Louroujina and given them refugee status!

You have got the wrong figures there. It is a documented fact that refugees from Louroujina [Akıncılar, Λουρουτζίνα] were resettled in Argaki [Akçay, Αργάκι] following the 1974 invasion. The 1974 population figure that you quote is obviously the population after the refugees were resettled.

In his eyewitness account based on a visit to the Louroujina on 7 February 1974, Martin Packard says on page 151 of Getting It Wrong :

The whole town, swollen by refugees to about four thousand, was seething with armed men.

I am glad that our figures with Packard tally up, so 2 fingers to GR and his crap roc figures.
GR knows it all Tim. What do I know; I only lived there at the time.

Not that I agree with Packards comment. I think he meant to say that it was seething with men with soldier uniforms. Arms came much later via smuggling.

There were 2 holes dug up in the ground the size of a grave about 2 feet deep, where the arms were stashed up. That was the amount of arms in 1963 before they were able to smuggle more arms into the village.

I think you are being a bit disingenous about arms, though. Surely the Turkish deep state had been clandestinely flooding the island with arms well in advance the conflict that it expected to erupt and helped to foment.

Tim, how did u arrive to a conclusion that it was Turkish deep state flooding Cyprus with arms? Everything was under control of official Turkish government. Turks didn't have a man like Grivas. TCs didn't have any doubts and feelings like of being sold out by their "motherland" with 60s agreements.

I can refer you to the following article by the highly respected Turkish investigative journalist Soner Yalçın:

http://www.turkishforum.com.tr/tr/conte ... ni-okuyun/

It is quite a long article but I would like to post a translation of it here some time if I can find time.

Come on Tim, MIT is national secret service of Turkey. What it has to do with "Turkish Deep State"?

Moreover, then the concerned Turkish officials were all informed abt the goings on in Cyprus. Everything was under control of Turkish government, unlike the relation between Grivas and GOG, so-called GOC.

Tim, have a look at these official telegram exchanges and conversations between all concerned parties of Cyprus problem.

http://history.state.gov/historicaldocu ... 4-68v16/d4

In response Ball stressed that the United States should avoid becoming the mediator in Cyprus: “Anyone who settles this is going to come down hard on the Greeks.” The United States should stay in the background. Ball then outlined a proposal for a Western European mediator, a 3-month cease-fire to permit mediation to proceed, and the inclusion of a 1,200 man U.S. contingent in the peacekeeping force. After answering a number of questions regarding the activities of U.S. officials, the President authorized further exploration of the Ball plan. (Johnson Library, Recordings and Transcripts, Recording of Telephone Conversation between President Johnson and Acting Secretary Ball, January 28, 1964, 6:35 p.m.?, Tape 64.08, Side B, PNO 1)

[Tim Drayton]

Just goes to show how wrong some people can be. In Lurucina there was 2000 refugees and if they could most would have returned to their villages, if they had security in their homes. They chose to wait until 74 and move to the north.
It needs no further explanation.

From... “Populations of the Occupied Villages and Districts”

Louroudjina:

GC 1963......GC 1974......TC 1963......TC 1974

......0................0..............1547...........1963

http://www.greece.org/cyprus/Villages.htm

From 1963 to 1974, the population of Louroujina increased by just 416 people!

Now, without knowing how many of these 416 were part of the natural birth rate increase, I wonder how many of these were “refugees” Y-Fronts?

Your 2000 figure looks more like you’ve taken the whole population of Louroujina and given them refugee status!

You have got the wrong figures there. It is a documented fact that refugees from Louroujina [Akıncılar, Λουρουτζίνα] were resettled in Argaki [Akçay, Αργάκι] following the 1974 invasion. The 1974 population figure that you quote is obviously the population after the refugees were resettled.

In his eyewitness account based on a visit to the Louroujina on 7 February 1974, Martin Packard says on page 151 of Getting It Wrong :

The whole town, swollen by refugees to about four thousand, was seething with armed men.

I am glad that our figures with Packard tally up, so 2 fingers to GR and his crap roc figures.
GR knows it all Tim. What do I know; I only lived there at the time.

Not that I agree with Packards comment. I think he meant to say that it was seething with men with soldier uniforms. Arms came much later via smuggling.

There were 2 holes dug up in the ground the size of a grave about 2 feet deep, where the arms were stashed up. That was the amount of arms in 1963 before they were able to smuggle more arms into the village.

I think you are being a bit disingenous about arms, though. Surely the Turkish deep state had been clandestinely flooding the island with arms well in advance the conflict that it expected to erupt and helped to foment.

Tim, how did u arrive to a conclusion that it was Turkish deep state flooding Cyprus with arms? Everything was under control of official Turkish government. Turks didn't have a man like Grivas. TCs didn't have any doubts and feelings like of being sold out by their "motherland" with 60s agreements.

I can refer you to the following article by the highly respected Turkish investigative journalist Soner Yalçın:

http://www.turkishforum.com.tr/tr/conte ... ni-okuyun/

It is quite a long article but I would like to post a translation of it here some time if I can find time.

Come on Tim, MIT is national secret service of Turkey. What it has to do with "Turkish Deep State"?

Moreover, then the concerned Turkish officials were all informed abt the goings on in Cyprus. Everything was under control of Turkish government, unlike the relation between Grivas and GOG, so-called GOC.

Tim, have a look at these official telegram exchanges and conversations between all concerned parties of Cyprus problem.

http://history.state.gov/historicaldocu ... 4-68v16/d4

In response Ball stressed that the United States should avoid becoming the mediator in Cyprus: “Anyone who settles this is going to come down hard on the Greeks.” The United States should stay in the background. Ball then outlined a proposal for a Western European mediator, a 3-month cease-fire to permit mediation to proceed, and the inclusion of a 1,200 man U.S. contingent in the peacekeeping force. After answering a number of questions regarding the activities of U.S. officials, the President authorized further exploration of the Ball plan. (Johnson Library, Recordings and Transcripts, Recording of Telephone Conversation between President Johnson and Acting Secretary Ball, January 28, 1964, 6:35 p.m.?, Tape 64.08, Side B, PNO 1)

The Special War Department (Özel Harp Dairesi) forms the core of that entity known in Turkey as the deep state. Read the article again.

[insan]

Just goes to show how wrong some people can be. In Lurucina there was 2000 refugees and if they could most would have returned to their villages, if they had security in their homes. They chose to wait until 74 and move to the north.
It needs no further explanation.

From... “Populations of the Occupied Villages and Districts”

Louroudjina:

GC 1963......GC 1974......TC 1963......TC 1974

......0................0..............1547...........1963

http://www.greece.org/cyprus/Villages.htm

From 1963 to 1974, the population of Louroujina increased by just 416 people!

Now, without knowing how many of these 416 were part of the natural birth rate increase, I wonder how many of these were “refugees” Y-Fronts?

Your 2000 figure looks more like you’ve taken the whole population of Louroujina and given them refugee status!

You have got the wrong figures there. It is a documented fact that refugees from Louroujina [Akıncılar, Λουρουτζίνα] were resettled in Argaki [Akçay, Αργάκι] following the 1974 invasion. The 1974 population figure that you quote is obviously the population after the refugees were resettled.

In his eyewitness account based on a visit to the Louroujina on 7 February 1974, Martin Packard says on page 151 of Getting It Wrong :

The whole town, swollen by refugees to about four thousand, was seething with armed men.

I am glad that our figures with Packard tally up, so 2 fingers to GR and his crap roc figures.
GR knows it all Tim. What do I know; I only lived there at the time.

Not that I agree with Packards comment. I think he meant to say that it was seething with men with soldier uniforms. Arms came much later via smuggling.

There were 2 holes dug up in the ground the size of a grave about 2 feet deep, where the arms were stashed up. That was the amount of arms in 1963 before they were able to smuggle more arms into the village.

I think you are being a bit disingenous about arms, though. Surely the Turkish deep state had been clandestinely flooding the island with arms well in advance the conflict that it expected to erupt and helped to foment.

Tim, how did u arrive to a conclusion that it was Turkish deep state flooding Cyprus with arms? Everything was under control of official Turkish government. Turks didn't have a man like Grivas. TCs didn't have any doubts and feelings like of being sold out by their "motherland" with 60s agreements.

I can refer you to the following article by the highly respected Turkish investigative journalist Soner Yalçın:

http://www.turkishforum.com.tr/tr/conte ... ni-okuyun/

It is quite a long article but I would like to post a translation of it here some time if I can find time.

Come on Tim, MIT is national secret service of Turkey. What it has to do with "Turkish Deep State"?

Moreover, then the concerned Turkish officials were all informed abt the goings on in Cyprus. Everything was under control of Turkish government, unlike the relation between Grivas and GOG, so-called GOC.

Tim, have a look at these official telegram exchanges and conversations between all concerned parties of Cyprus problem.

http://history.state.gov/historicaldocu ... 4-68v16/d4

In response Ball stressed that the United States should avoid becoming the mediator in Cyprus: “Anyone who settles this is going to come down hard on the Greeks.” The United States should stay in the background. Ball then outlined a proposal for a Western European mediator, a 3-month cease-fire to permit mediation to proceed, and the inclusion of a 1,200 man U.S. contingent in the peacekeeping force. After answering a number of questions regarding the activities of U.S. officials, the President authorized further exploration of the Ball plan. (Johnson Library, Recordings and Transcripts, Recording of Telephone Conversation between President Johnson and Acting Secretary Ball, January 28, 1964, 6:35 p.m.?, Tape 64.08, Side B, PNO 1)

The Special War Department (Özel Harp Dairesi) forms the core of that entity known in Turkey as the deep state. Read the article again.

Tim, there r many things in that article contradict with the information given by other sources.

Kıbrıs’ta özel harpçiler tarafından henüz iki hafta önce kurulan, “Türk Mukavemet Teşkilatı” (TMT)’yi bilmiyorlardı. Özel harpçiler rahatladı…

It states that on 13th August 1958, the TCs who were questioned in Turkey didn't know abt TMT and this relaxed the members of The Special War Department.

In November 1957, the Turkish TMT published its first leaflet, in which it claimed that it would act throughout Cyprus and urged the Turkish-Cypriot people to support its actions. The members of TMT took an oath on the Koran and the Turkish flag:

I give my word that I will resist to any attack against Turkish lives and property. Our organization will only be dismantled when the glorious Turkish flag waves in Cyprus . I dedicate myself to the Turkish nation.

http://www.psywarrior.com/cyprus.html

How it could be possible that those TCs who went Turkey to buy/provide weapons to TCs didn't know the existence of "secret" TMT?

[Get Real!]

In his eyewitness account based on a visit to the Louroujina on 7 February 1974, Martin Packard says on page 151 of Getting It Wrong :

The whole town, swollen by refugees to about four thousand, was seething with armed men.

Since when does an eyewitness’ “population count” via inspection form credible evidence?

http://thecyprusproblem.100webspace.net ... icle29.htm

You can do better than that Tim...

[Tim Drayton]

In his eyewitness account based on a visit to the Louroujina on 7 February 1974, Martin Packard says on page 151 of Getting It Wrong :

The whole town, swollen by refugees to about four thousand, was seething with armed men.

Since when does an eyewitness’ “population count” via inspection form credible evidence?

http://thecyprusproblem.100webspace.net ... icle29.htm

You can do better than that Tim...

Given that Packard made repeated visits to Louroujina in an official capacity, his impressions carry some weight, in my estimation. It is hardly feasible for an official census to be conducted in the middle of an ethnic conflict.