Cyprus-Forum.com

[Paphitis]

How do you know that for the most part Greek Cypriots are Mycaenean? Why do you call Mycaeneans 'Greeks'? Why as a Greek Orthodox Christian do you only identify with Greece? How about other Greek Orthodox Christians in Finland, Egypt, Syria? Are you especially religious?

Being Greek has absolutely nothing to do with bloodline or genes. We are not like the Nazi's in this day and age, and do not believe in the "superior" Arian or Hellenic race.

Dorians have Nordic origins, but this does not change the fact that they are Hellenes and contributed enormously to Hellenism. The same with the Mycenaeans, Cypriots, and whoever else consider themselves Hellenic.

Once again, Hellenism is just an ethnic grouping of peoples who share a common culture, heritage, language and religion...nothing more or less.

[Omer Seyhan]

conclusion when you saw the phrase "Turkish/Muslim" ... which does not exclusively define TCs IMHO.

I could have asked Yialousa the same question, but that would have been a waste of time even though asking you proved to be a bigger waste of time. I preferred to ask you because I didn't believe you really held the view you portrayed, and therefore I wanted you to clarify that fact, which you did!

The phrase Turkish/Muslim actually means TCs, and under this definition you inadvertently declared that ALL TCs are not Cypriot.

You would have been much better off choosing this:


WOW! How do you know that you are ethnically Greek? I have no idea what my ancient ancesters are. Where did you find out?

Someone who puts Cyprus and all its legitimate people ahead of all other considerations

Why would a Greek nationalist put all the legitimate people of Cyprus first, Paphiti - when a minority of these don't even share the same orthodox Christian background as the rest?

Once again, being a Greek has NOTHING to do with being a nationalist.

Greek is what most GCs are, from an ethnic point of view, and this does not over ride the fact that we are Cypriot.

If I was a Greek nationalist then I would spend my time on a Hellenic or Greek forum, but I choose to spend it on a Cypriot forum because a Cypriot is what I am, therefore loyal to Cyprus because the island is where my roots are.

If my roots were in Crete, I would probably seek the Crete-Forum.com...

[The Cypriot]

Why would a Greek nationalist put all the legitimate people of Cyprus first, Paphiti - when a minority of these don't even share the same orthodox Christian background as the rest?

Once again, being a Greek has NOTHING to do with being a nationalist.

Is there a Banairin going on in your head? I asked a question, referring to a Greek nationalist - not you. Of course not all Greeks are nationalists. LAOS (nationalist party of Greece) scored less than 2.5% in the last elections.

[Simon]

The “Greek Cypriot” we use to describe ourselves is just a LABEL that only came into use once the British took over to differentiate the Muslims from the Christians on the island. It has NOTHING to do with Greece or Greeks.

Actually, the Greek Cypriots have always been known as Greeks:

...'They were singing in the Greek tongue, so we could not understand them, because all the people in Cyprus speak Greek...'
Jacobus de Vevona, Augustian Monk
-visited Cyprus in 1335


...'The people in Limassol are Greeks and so are all the inhabitants of Cyprus, and they speak Greek...'
Oldrich Prefat, Czech nobleman
-visited Cyprus in 1546

'... for the Turks have no care themselves for agriculture, and if they see any of the Greek natives occupying themselves in cultivating the soil, or amassing wealth, they either harass them with avanie (so the Italians call the fraudulent tricks of the Turks), or drain their resources by exactions, and flay them, so to speak, to the bone...' Ioannes Cotovicus
Doctor of Civil and Canon Law, in the University, of Utrecht
-visited Cyprus in 1598-9

'... The Greeks and other Christian inhabitants cannot be but poor on account of the ill treatment and tyranny which they suffer from the Turks in their person and property... Very many of them, unable to hear any longer this cruel tyranny, wish to turn Turk; but many are rejected, becausee (say their lords) in receiving them into the Moslem faith their tribute would be so much diminished...'
Noel Dominique Hurtrel
"Du Voiage de Jerusalem "
-visited Cyprus in 1670

'... Cyprus surpasses every other Greek island in the number of natives illustrious for their birth, dignity, learning and saintliness... '
Abbe Giovanni Mariti
Official of the Imperial and Tuscan
Consulates, lived in Cyprus 1760-67
Author of the "Viaggi per I'Isola di Cipro"


'... Marcello Cerrutti, a distinguished Italian, formerly an ambassador, now a senator who had studied the Cypriots closely, characterized them truly when he said to me a few years ago in Rome': "Cyprus is the noblest aspect of Hellenism."
("Cipro e la piu nobile fisionomia del grecismo.")
Agnes Smith
Renowned British Novelist,
Author of "Glimpses of Greek Life and Scenery " etc,
visited Cyprus in 1883
(Extract from page 225 of her book
"THOUGH CYPRUS "
Published in England in 1887.

It is also clear that the Ottomans knew the Christians of Cyprus were Greeks, as did the Greek Cypriots themselves, before anything British arrived on the island:

'During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821. After a few years, the archbishops were able to regain authority in religious matters, but as secular leaders they were unable to regain any substantial power until after World War II.'

http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-3469.html

On the other hand, what is a new phenomenon is this idea of a "Cypriot":

'Cypriotism existed neither as a term nor as a concept of a shared identity before the tragic events of 1974. Both communities defined themselves rather as Turks and Greeks respectively.'

'Thus "Cypriotism" is not the result of a long process developed in centuries of identity building, but rather a concept developed by intellectuals aimed to overcome a political and social tragedy.'

http://dzforum.de/downloads/020101007.pdf

Old travelogues tend to contain inaccuracies, the authors' motives, the fact that they were usually not qualified or knowleagable about the places and people they visited and were more inclined towards making generalisations or presumptions must be taken into consideration. Many old travelogues I've read contain unbelievable biases and even racism. This questions their reliability as sources of information.

These travelogues are actually quite useful as they portray the perception that exists. It is obvious that Greek Cypriots have always been perceived by outsiders (as well as by themselves) as Greeks. The Ottomans clearly also regarded them as Greeks, hence they killed Cyprot bishops during the Greek War of Independence. This is the point I am making. The idea of us being Greeks certainly did not suddenly appear from the British as was claimed by Get Real. It is nonsense. The first demand of the Cypriots when the British took control of the island was enosis with Greece. So how did the British create the Greek identity? It's rubbish. What has suddenly appeared however, is this 'Cypriot identity'.

The trouble with you is you accept other people's 'assumptions' too easily. Who said the Ottomans regarded the Greek Cypriots as Greeks? As a Turkish speaker who is also able to read Ottoman Turkish (in the Arabic script) I can tell you that the Greek Cypriots were referred to as "Rum" or "Rumyan", which refers to their "Greek Orthodox Church." Rum is also used in the Black Sea region of Turkey to refer to Greek Orthodox Christians there who could be Georgian / Laz.

The Ottoman / Turkish term for Greek (the way you understand it) is Yunan or Ionian. It is never used to refer to Greek Cypriots. I certainly have never heard it used.

Second, travelogues do contain biases and inaccuracies that can often render the report void. Bear in mind, most travellers only stopped over in Cyprus on their way to the Holy land, they did not have a special interest in Cyprus or reflect for more than a moment whether the islanders were Greek by ethnicity as well as by language. Many subscribed to existing assumptions like you have done.

Some travellers were clearly bias. For example, take the Catholic travelogues (such as Rev. Dandini) which are biased towards the Maronites and Latins.

The Ottomans referred to the GCs as "Rum" because they only differentiated people by their religion, this is well known. This does not mean GCs weren't Greek. If the Ottomans did not consider GCs to be Greeks, why did they kill GO Bishops during the Greek War of Independence? The answer is because they accused them of colluding with the uprising. Why would GCs do such a thing if they were not Greeks? Cyprus was regarded as populated by Greeks by the British even before they even took control in Cyprus. So it was not only these travellers that thought the Cypriots were Greeks. The fact is the GCs spoke Greek and shared the same cultural and religious characteristics as the other Greeks, and were therefore regarded as such.

Whether the travellers were biased or not is not relevant, because I fail to see whether calling Cypriots Greeks or not can be driven by bias. What difference would it make at that time? They were Christians anyway.

Exactly for the reasons you stated. Yes, the Ottomans divided up their subjects according to religion but the way of thinking of the people complemented this as they also identified in religious terms. They did not think as you assume in ethnic terms....

To the Greek Orthodox Christians of Cyprus, their fellow Greek-Orthodox churchmen lived in Greece, Black Sea coast, Central and Western Anatolia, Egypt, Syria, Palestine and also in the Balkans. Union with an independent country (Greece) was the dream of everybody who was a Greek Orthodox Christian living under Ottoman rule. Who would not want independence? What was the alternative, high Ottoman taxation?

I agree, because they regarded themselves as Greeks, and outsiders regarded them as Greeks, they wanted to be part of Greece. This is my point. The GO Church played a big part in it, as it was an intrinsic part of the culture of Greeks. Of course, history shows that Cyprus was colonised by Greeks in ancient times, and has largely retained a distinctly Greek character ever since.

The point where we differ is in your use of "Greek." It is problematic because it suggests present day nationalist interpretations of "Greek." You have to choose your period - you cannot move from one historical period to another assuming everything has stayed the same. You need to update / modify occasionally...

What is described by Greek historians such as Speros Vryonis as Hellenisation ressembles Hispanisation / Turkicisation in later periods of history.

My use of 'Greek' denotes ethnicity. Greek Cypriots are Cypriot nationals who are ethnic Greeks. Greek Cypriots are just as Greek, ethnically speaking, as any area of Greece. For example, the only difference between Cyprus, and say, Crete, was political union. It does not matter what period you choose, ancient times, medieval times, or modern times, the majority of Cypriots have always been Greeks (whether you want to define that as cultural, ethnic or whatever).

The ancient Mycenaeans (they are not known as ancient Greeks by experts) were not ethnically Greek. The definition is more like the term "American" today. Many were peoples who had adopted the language of the Mycenaeans and their culture but who very likely maintained elements of their previous languages, religion, culture....

In the same way not all Turkic peoples were originally descendants of the Oghuz Turks but had adopted the language - for example the Chuvash and Azeris (formerly the Alans). Not all Latin Americans are Spanish / Portuguese and not all English-speakers are from England.

Of course, nobody is claiming racial purity. This is nonsense. There are no racially pure ethnicities in the world (except maybe for some isolated Amazon tribes and the likes). I think you are confused by the term "ethnicity". Ethinicity does not simply denote race/genetics, but can also mean cultural ties and a sense of belonging to a particular group. The whole Hellenic movement was about language and culture, not necessarily race. Now, evidence has been posted on this forum showing that Greek Cypriots are genetically very close to other Greeks, but this alone does not make us Greeks. It is also our own identity, language and culture that does this.

Further, you are wrong also about the Mycenaeans. They are regarded as Greeks by historians. Furthermore, it was not only the Mycenaeans that settled in Cyprus from Greece, but various other Greeks as well over a period of hundreds of years.

Greek Orthodox Christianity by contrast spread not by the Mycenaeans but by the Byzantines later on. The Byzantines were all very mixed and the term can best be described as an umbrella term.

Of course Orthodox Christianity was not spread by the Mycenaeans, because it did not exist back then. But in ancient times, most Cypriots had the same religion as all the other Greeks. Then once Christianity appeared, again, the Greek populated areas converted to the religion. However, it was not so much the Byzantines that spread Christianity to Cyprus, but it was evangelicals beforehand, such as the Apostle Paul, accompanied by Barnabas and Mark the Evangelist, who came to Cyprus in 45 AD. The faith then gradually spread throughout the island. The Byzantine Empire itself was culturally at least Greek/Hellenic one, as Greek language and culture became dominant.

Much much later on in the early 19th century in Ottoman Cyprus the Greek Orthodox Christian inhabitants would have undoubtedly been a blend of all the new comers since the arrival of Mycenaeans. Even if they maintained to some extent the religion introduced to them by Byzantines
they would have had many other ingredients since them, including Arab, Nestorian Christian and Turkish. Their reasons for union for Greece in Ottoman times was NOT because they remembered their Mycenaeans part-ancestors but more to do with religion and escaping Ottoman rule.

As I mentioned earlier, patently there isn't racial purity in Cyprus, nor most other places in the world. It is highly likely that Greek Cypriots are a mixture of many different peoples, just like every other ethnicity in the world today. Greek Cypriots are not unique here. However, ethnicity is not based on this. The Greeks of Greece, the Turks of Turkey, the English of England etc are all just as much, if not more so, a mixture of various people. What makes Greek Cypriots Greek is the same thing for Greeks in Greece - language, culture, religious traditions, identity, history, etc etc. But may I remind you once more that the Alleles of Greek Cypriots show a marked similarity to those of other Greeks, and previously Greek populated areas. Cyprus was no different to any other Greek island during the Greek Wars of Independence, the only difference was it didn't manage to gain full self-determination, like others did. This does not mean that I advocate enosis or anything of the sort. What I want is true Cypriot independence, away from foreign interference, which allows the population of Cyprus to live peacefully, and identify however they like, as long as Cyprus comes first.

[Simon]

The Cypriot identity comes NATURALLY simply because Cyprus and her Cypriot inhabitants exist and have existed for millenniums and way before anything Greek or Turkish ever existed!

What is “perceived” and what is reality are two different things.

In that case all Australians are native Aboriginals because they pre dated European settlement by millenniums...

Go back to sleep GR!

"Perception" is everything in this life. The fact is many TCs might actually be GCs, but they perceive themselves to be TCs, and that is all that really matters.

Of course, I could consider myself to be a tribal native of Australia, but everyone else would think I'm deluded...

Of course, "perception" within reason.

It's a bit like thinking we have pure Choirokitian heritage or roots and that our Hellenic links are a fabrication....

If that be the case, then Australia's European links are also a fabrication and so ALL Aussies might as well declare themselves tribal elders....

You just can't get anymore deluded than that....

Completely agree.

[Paphitis]

Why would a Greek nationalist put all the legitimate people of Cyprus first, Paphiti - when a minority of these don't even share the same orthodox Christian background as the rest?

Once again, being a Greek has NOTHING to do with being a nationalist.

Is there a Banairin going on in your head? I asked a question, referring to a Greek nationalist - not you. Of course not all Greeks are nationalists. LAOS (nationalist party of Greece) scored less than 2.5% in the last elections.

There are no Greek nationalists.

There are many Cypriot nationalists (who happen to be GCs), and I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

Anyone having an affinity with Greece or their Greek heritage does not mean they are Greek Nationalists. It just means that this person derives some pride in their Hellenic inheritance...they are certainly not nationalists because of this.

The minority that is not Christian (I assume you are referring to the TCs) are in the most part Turkic, and most derive their pride from this cultural identity. Again, nothing wrong with that either, as long as the overriding loyalty is with Cyprus and not Turkey.

And Cypriot nationalists could be supporters of either DISY, DIKO, AKEL, EDEK, EP etc.

I don't distinguish between political ideology, but do based on views and opinions.

[Simon]

Why would a Greek nationalist put all the legitimate people of Cyprus first, Paphiti - when a minority of these don't even share the same orthodox Christian background as the rest?

Once again, being a Greek has NOTHING to do with being a nationalist.

Is there a Banairin going on in your head? I asked a question, referring to a Greek nationalist - not you. Of course not all Greeks are nationalists. LAOS (nationalist party of Greece) scored less than 2.5% in the last elections.

There are no Greek nationalists.

There are many Cypriot nationalists (who happen to be GCs), and I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

Anyone having an affinity with Greece or their Greek heritage does not mean they are Greek Nationalists. It just means that this person derives some pride in their Hellenic inheritance...they are certainly not nationalists because of this.

The minority that is not Christian (I assume you are referring to the TCs) are in the most part Turkic, and most derive their pride from this cultural identity. Again, nothing wrong with that either, as long as the overriding loyalty is with Cyprus and not Turkey.

And Cypriot nationalists could be supporters of either DISY, DIKO, AKEL, EDEK, EP etc.

I don't distinguish between political ideology, but do based on views and opinions.

There seems to be some stigma with the word "nationalist". As far as I'm concerned, all that it means is you love your country and put your country first. I don't see a great deal wrong with that in itself. It doesn't necessarily mean you're a Nazi and believe your country is superior to all others.

[Paphitis]

Why would a Greek nationalist put all the legitimate people of Cyprus first, Paphiti - when a minority of these don't even share the same orthodox Christian background as the rest?

Once again, being a Greek has NOTHING to do with being a nationalist.

Is there a Banairin going on in your head? I asked a question, referring to a Greek nationalist - not you. Of course not all Greeks are nationalists. LAOS (nationalist party of Greece) scored less than 2.5% in the last elections.

There are no Greek nationalists.

There are many Cypriot nationalists (who happen to be GCs), and I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

Anyone having an affinity with Greece or their Greek heritage does not mean they are Greek Nationalists. It just means that this person derives some pride in their Hellenic inheritance...they are certainly not nationalists because of this.

The minority that is not Christian (I assume you are referring to the TCs) are in the most part Turkic, and most derive their pride from this cultural identity. Again, nothing wrong with that either, as long as the overriding loyalty is with Cyprus and not Turkey.

And Cypriot nationalists could be supporters of either DISY, DIKO, AKEL, EDEK, EP etc.

I don't distinguish between political ideology, but do based on views and opinions.

There seems to be some stigma with the word "nationalist". As far as I'm concerned, all that it means is you love your country and put your country first. I don't see a great deal wrong with that in itself. It doesn't necessarily mean you're a Nazi and believe your country is superior to all others.

That is correct.

Fierce Australian nationalism is what I was fed for most of my adult life....It does in actual fact hot wire you to be willing to do anything for your country.

But a nationalist could simply also mean someone who deeply loves their country. Most of us here could probably be classed as nationalists.

[The Cypriot]

How do you know that for the most part Greek Cypriots are Mycaenean? Why do you call Mycaeneans 'Greeks'? Why as a Greek Orthodox Christian do you only identify with Greece? How about other Greek Orthodox Christians in Finland, Egypt, Syria? Are you especially religious?

Being Greek has absolutely nothing to do with bloodline or genes. We are not like the Nazi's in this day and age, and do not believe in the "superior" Arian or Hellenic race.

Dorians have Nordic origins, but this does not change the fact that they are Hellenes and contributed enormously to Hellenism. The same with the Mycenaeans, Cypriots, and whoever else consider themselves Hellenic.

Once again, Hellenism is just an ethnic grouping of peoples who share a common culture, heritage, language and religion...nothing more or less.

Ancient Cypriots are no more and no less "Hellenic" than the ancient Mycenaeans, Spartans, Athenians, Corinthians, Sicilians etc. OK? No one is arguing and no one else gives a shit.

But modern Cypriots are totally obsessed with this millennia-old aspect of their identity. As far as I'm aware, this obsession has no equivalent anywhere in the world and is, frankly, embarrassing.

[Simon]

How do you know that for the most part Greek Cypriots are Mycaenean? Why do you call Mycaeneans 'Greeks'? Why as a Greek Orthodox Christian do you only identify with Greece? How about other Greek Orthodox Christians in Finland, Egypt, Syria? Are you especially religious?

Being Greek has absolutely nothing to do with bloodline or genes. We are not like the Nazi's in this day and age, and do not believe in the "superior" Arian or Hellenic race.

Dorians have Nordic origins, but this does not change the fact that they are Hellenes and contributed enormously to Hellenism. The same with the Mycenaeans, Cypriots, and whoever else consider themselves Hellenic.

Once again, Hellenism is just an ethnic grouping of peoples who share a common culture, heritage, language and religion...nothing more or less.

Ancient Cypriots are no more and no less "Hellenic" than the ancient Mycenaeans, Spartans, Athens, Corinthians, Sicilians etc. OK? No one is arguing and no one else gives a shit.

But modern Cypriots are totally obsessed with this millennia-old aspect of their identity. As far as I'm aware, this obsession has no equivalent anywhere in the world and is, frankly, embarrassing.

The Cypriot, modern Cypriots are only "obsessed" as you put it, because their identity is apparently coming under attack every which way they turn. This "obsession" has only surfaced since the obsessive neo-Cypriots appeared trying to tell us what we are and what we are not.

It has a simple resolution. Everybody stop banging on about our identity, and instead put their energies into solving the national problem. I mean, I don't see TCs tearing each other apart every 5 minutes about how they define themselves, do you?