Cyprus-Forum.com

[Omer Seyhan]

The trouble with you is you accept other people's 'assumptions' too easily. Who said the Ottomans regarded the Greek Cypriots as Greeks? As a Turkish speaker who is also able to read Ottoman Turkish (in the Arabic script) I can tell you that the Greek Cypriots were referred to as "Rum" or "Rumyan", which refers to their "Greek Orthodox Church." Rum is also used in the Black Sea region of Turkey to refer to Greek Orthodox Christians there who could be Georgian / Laz.

The Ottoman / Turkish term for Greek (the way you understand it) is Yunan or Ionian. It is never used to refer to Greek Cypriots. I certainly have never heard it used.

Second, travelogues do contain biases and inaccuracies that can often render the report void. Bear in mind, most travellers only stopped over in Cyprus on their way to the Holy land, they did not have a special interest in Cyprus or reflect for more than a moment whether the islanders were Greek by ethnicity as well as by language. Many subscribed to existing assumptions like you have done.

Some travellers were clearly bias. For example, take the Catholic travelogues (such as Rev. Dandini) which are biased towards the Maronites and Latins.

Unless I'm very much mistaken, "Rum"/"Rumyan" means Roman.

Yes exactly, it refers to the Eastern Roman Church or Greek Orthodox Church in what used to be Constantinople. Its followers were EXTREMELY DIVERSE.

[Simon]

The “Greek Cypriot” we use to describe ourselves is just a LABEL that only came into use once the British took over to differentiate the Muslims from the Christians on the island. It has NOTHING to do with Greece or Greeks.

Actually, the Greek Cypriots have always been known as Greeks:

...'They were singing in the Greek tongue, so we could not understand them, because all the people in Cyprus speak Greek...'
Jacobus de Vevona, Augustian Monk
-visited Cyprus in 1335


...'The people in Limassol are Greeks and so are all the inhabitants of Cyprus, and they speak Greek...'
Oldrich Prefat, Czech nobleman
-visited Cyprus in 1546

'... for the Turks have no care themselves for agriculture, and if they see any of the Greek natives occupying themselves in cultivating the soil, or amassing wealth, they either harass them with avanie (so the Italians call the fraudulent tricks of the Turks), or drain their resources by exactions, and flay them, so to speak, to the bone...' Ioannes Cotovicus
Doctor of Civil and Canon Law, in the University, of Utrecht
-visited Cyprus in 1598-9

'... The Greeks and other Christian inhabitants cannot be but poor on account of the ill treatment and tyranny which they suffer from the Turks in their person and property... Very many of them, unable to hear any longer this cruel tyranny, wish to turn Turk; but many are rejected, becausee (say their lords) in receiving them into the Moslem faith their tribute would be so much diminished...'
Noel Dominique Hurtrel
"Du Voiage de Jerusalem "
-visited Cyprus in 1670

'... Cyprus surpasses every other Greek island in the number of natives illustrious for their birth, dignity, learning and saintliness... '
Abbe Giovanni Mariti
Official of the Imperial and Tuscan
Consulates, lived in Cyprus 1760-67
Author of the "Viaggi per I'Isola di Cipro"


'... Marcello Cerrutti, a distinguished Italian, formerly an ambassador, now a senator who had studied the Cypriots closely, characterized them truly when he said to me a few years ago in Rome': "Cyprus is the noblest aspect of Hellenism."
("Cipro e la piu nobile fisionomia del grecismo.")
Agnes Smith
Renowned British Novelist,
Author of "Glimpses of Greek Life and Scenery " etc,
visited Cyprus in 1883
(Extract from page 225 of her book
"THOUGH CYPRUS "
Published in England in 1887.

It is also clear that the Ottomans knew the Christians of Cyprus were Greeks, as did the Greek Cypriots themselves, before anything British arrived on the island:

'During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821. After a few years, the archbishops were able to regain authority in religious matters, but as secular leaders they were unable to regain any substantial power until after World War II.'

http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-3469.html

On the other hand, what is a new phenomenon is this idea of a "Cypriot":

'Cypriotism existed neither as a term nor as a concept of a shared identity before the tragic events of 1974. Both communities defined themselves rather as Turks and Greeks respectively.'

'Thus "Cypriotism" is not the result of a long process developed in centuries of identity building, but rather a concept developed by intellectuals aimed to overcome a political and social tragedy.'

http://dzforum.de/downloads/020101007.pdf

Old travelogues tend to contain inaccuracies, the authors' motives, the fact that they were usually not qualified or knowleagable about the places and people they visited and were more inclined towards making generalisations or presumptions must be taken into consideration. Many old travelogues I've read contain unbelievable biases and even racism. This questions their reliability as sources of information.

These travelogues are actually quite useful as they portray the perception that exists. It is obvious that Greek Cypriots have always been perceived by outsiders (as well as by themselves) as Greeks. The Ottomans clearly also regarded them as Greeks, hence they killed Cyprot bishops during the Greek War of Independence. This is the point I am making. The idea of us being Greeks certainly did not suddenly appear from the British as was claimed by Get Real. It is nonsense. The first demand of the Cypriots when the British took control of the island was enosis with Greece. So how did the British create the Greek identity? It's rubbish. What has suddenly appeared however, is this 'Cypriot identity'.

The trouble with you is you accept other people's 'assumptions' too easily. Who said the Ottomans regarded the Greek Cypriots as Greeks? As a Turkish speaker who is also able to read Ottoman Turkish (in the Arabic script) I can tell you that the Greek Cypriots were referred to as "Rum" or "Rumyan", which refers to their "Greek Orthodox Church." Rum is also used in the Black Sea region of Turkey to refer to Greek Orthodox Christians there who could be Georgian / Laz.

The Ottoman / Turkish term for Greek (the way you understand it) is Yunan or Ionian. It is never used to refer to Greek Cypriots. I certainly have never heard it used.

Second, travelogues do contain biases and inaccuracies that can often render the report void. Bear in mind, most travellers only stopped over in Cyprus on their way to the Holy land, they did not have a special interest in Cyprus or reflect for more than a moment whether the islanders were Greek by ethnicity as well as by language. Many subscribed to existing assumptions like you have done.

Some travellers were clearly bias. For example, take the Catholic travelogues (such as Rev. Dandini) which are biased towards the Maronites and Latins.

The Ottomans referred to the GCs as "Rum" because they only differentiated people by their religion, this is well known. This does not mean GCs weren't Greek. If the Ottomans did not consider GCs to be Greeks, why did they kill GO Bishops during the Greek War of Independence? The answer is because they accused them of colluding with the uprising. Why would GCs do such a thing if they were not Greeks? Cyprus was regarded as populated by Greeks by the British even before they even took control in Cyprus. So it was not only these travellers that thought the Cypriots were Greeks. The fact is the GCs spoke Greek and shared the same cultural and religious characteristics as the other Greeks, and were therefore reasonably regarded as such.

Whether the travellers were biased or not is not relevant, because I fail to see whether calling Cypriots Greeks or not can be driven by bias. What difference would it make at that time? They were Christians anyway.

[Oracle]

Still, it was more important to exclude anything labelled as "Turkish" (exclusively) as being in any way a definition of a Cypriot ....

Then you must be fair and exclude anything labelled as Greek. This is the only way your argument can ever hold water.

Such "exclusion" logic does not apply since, firstly, Greece is not the enemy occupant of Cyprus and, secondly, the (indigenous) native ethnicity of Cyprus is Greek.

But this does not give you the right to exclude our TC friends.

Where have I done that?

The statement only referred to "Turkish" or "Muslim". The former is NOT Cypriot and the latter might or might not be depending on the religious views of the holder (be they GC like Cat Stevens or TC like Deniz) but irrelevant to citizenship.

My vote against "Turkish/Muslim" being Cypriot, does not reflect on TCs. That was YOUR mix-up!

Now sorted!

Kikapu considers himself Turkish and Muslim.

So once again dear Oracle, where does your poll selection leave someone like him, who is more loyal to the RoC than Deniz is IMHO?

Sadly, your choice did reflect on ALL TCs, for most of us, and you did well to clarify that this was not your true intention.

I don't pussy-foot around to please any TC and as for "true intentions", you are the one who made assumptions and required sorting ... The poll was aimed at definitions of Cypriots and Cyprus does not begin and end with TCs. And it certainly has nothing to do, in any legitimate capacity with a Turkish or Muslim identity and that's were I centred my choice.

You chose to bring in TCs because you jumped to the wrong conclusion when you saw the phrase "Turkish/Muslim" ... which does not exclusively define TCs IMHO.

[Simon]

The Cypriot identity comes NATURALLY simply because Cyprus and her Cypriot inhabitants exist and have existed for millenniums and way before anything Greek or Turkish ever existed!

What is “perceived” and what is reality are two different things.

In that case all Australians are native Aboriginals because they pre dated European settlement by millenniums...

Go back to sleep GR!

"Perception" is everything in this life. The fact is many TCs might actually be GCs, but they perceive themselves to be TCs, and that is all that really matters.

Not really.... Some Turkish Cypriot origins are very diverse, it contains many many elements.

To name a few: Greek Cypriot, Turkish-Alevi, Kurdish-Alevi, Turkish-Sunni, Caramanians, Palestinians, Syrian Alawaites, Turkmens from Iraq, Egyptians, Sudanese, Maronites, Latins, Armenians, Roma Gypsey and now British (which include English, Welsh, Irish and Scottish).

If we were all G/Cs then how do you explain the presence of the Turkish Cypriot vernacular in Cyprus? A vernacular that contains Ottoman Turkish, Yoruk Turkish (Turkmen), Cypriot-Greek, Sanna, English, Italian, Roma-language and Arabic.

Sorry I forget to mention: Albanians, Bosnians, Circassians, Janisseries (who could have been anything), Persians, Jews and even Kashmiri is recorded by Ottoman archives.

You need to learn to read more carefully because I never said they were all GCs, just that many might be. It is well established that many GC Christians converted to Islam to escape harsher tax penalties.

[Oracle]

The “Greek Cypriot” we use to describe ourselves is just a LABEL that only came into use once the British took over to differentiate the Muslims from the Christians on the island. It has NOTHING to do with Greece or Greeks.

Actually, the Greek Cypriots have always been known as Greeks:

...'They were singing in the Greek tongue, so we could not understand them, because all the people in Cyprus speak Greek...'
Jacobus de Vevona, Augustian Monk
-visited Cyprus in 1335


...'The people in Limassol are Greeks and so are all the inhabitants of Cyprus, and they speak Greek...'
Oldrich Prefat, Czech nobleman
-visited Cyprus in 1546

'... for the Turks have no care themselves for agriculture, and if they see any of the Greek natives occupying themselves in cultivating the soil, or amassing wealth, they either harass them with avanie (so the Italians call the fraudulent tricks of the Turks), or drain their resources by exactions, and flay them, so to speak, to the bone...' Ioannes Cotovicus
Doctor of Civil and Canon Law, in the University, of Utrecht
-visited Cyprus in 1598-9

'... The Greeks and other Christian inhabitants cannot be but poor on account of the ill treatment and tyranny which they suffer from the Turks in their person and property... Very many of them, unable to hear any longer this cruel tyranny, wish to turn Turk; but many are rejected, becausee (say their lords) in receiving them into the Moslem faith their tribute would be so much diminished...'
Noel Dominique Hurtrel
"Du Voiage de Jerusalem "
-visited Cyprus in 1670

'... Cyprus surpasses every other Greek island in the number of natives illustrious for their birth, dignity, learning and saintliness... '
Abbe Giovanni Mariti
Official of the Imperial and Tuscan
Consulates, lived in Cyprus 1760-67
Author of the "Viaggi per I'Isola di Cipro"


'... Marcello Cerrutti, a distinguished Italian, formerly an ambassador, now a senator who had studied the Cypriots closely, characterized them truly when he said to me a few years ago in Rome': "Cyprus is the noblest aspect of Hellenism."
("Cipro e la piu nobile fisionomia del grecismo.")
Agnes Smith
Renowned British Novelist,
Author of "Glimpses of Greek Life and Scenery " etc,
visited Cyprus in 1883
(Extract from page 225 of her book
"THOUGH CYPRUS "
Published in England in 1887.

It is also clear that the Ottomans knew the Christians of Cyprus were Greeks, as did the Greek Cypriots themselves, before anything British arrived on the island:

'During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821. After a few years, the archbishops were able to regain authority in religious matters, but as secular leaders they were unable to regain any substantial power until after World War II.'

http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-3469.html

On the other hand, what is a new phenomenon is this idea of a "Cypriot":

'Cypriotism existed neither as a term nor as a concept of a shared identity before the tragic events of 1974. Both communities defined themselves rather as Turks and Greeks respectively.'

'Thus "Cypriotism" is not the result of a long process developed in centuries of identity building, but rather a concept developed by intellectuals aimed to overcome a political and social tragedy.'

http://dzforum.de/downloads/020101007.pdf

Old travelogues tend to contain inaccuracies, the authors' motives, the fact that they were usually not qualified or knowleagable about the places and people they visited and were more inclined towards making generalisations or presumptions must be taken into consideration. Many old travelogues I've read contain unbelievable biases and even racism. This questions their reliability as sources of information.

These travelogues are actually quite useful as they portray the perception that exists. It is obvious that Greek Cypriots have always been perceived by outsiders (as well as by themselves) as Greeks. The Ottomans clearly also regarded them as Greeks, hence they killed Cyprot bishops during the Greek War of Independence. This is the point I am making. The idea of us being Greeks certainly did not suddenly appear from the British as was claimed by Get Real. It is nonsense. The first demand of the Cypriots when the British took control of the island was enosis with Greece. So how did the British create the Greek identity? It's rubbish. What has suddenly appeared however, is this 'Cypriot identity'.

The trouble with you is you accept other people's 'assumptions' too easily. Who said the Ottomans regarded the Greek Cypriots as Greeks? As a Turkish speaker who is also able to read Ottoman Turkish (in the Arabic script) I can tell you that the Greek Cypriots were referred to as "Rum" or "Rumyan", which refers to their "Greek Orthodox Church." Rum is also used in the Black Sea region of Turkey to refer to Greek Orthodox Christians there who could be Georgian / Laz.

The Ottoman / Turkish term for Greek (the way you understand it) is Yunan or Ionian. It is never used to refer to Greek Cypriots. I certainly have never heard it used.

Second, travelogues do contain biases and inaccuracies that can often render the report void. Bear in mind, most travellers only stopped over in Cyprus on their way to the Holy land, they did not have a special interest in Cyprus or reflect for more than a moment whether the islanders were Greek by ethnicity as well as by language. Many subscribed to existing assumptions like you have done.

Some travellers were clearly bias. For example, take the Catholic travelogues (such as Rev. Dandini) which are biased towards the Maronites and Latins.

It's rather shallow to condemn such diverse sources as being biased but the Ottomans, as ONE source, of not being biased ... i.e. the ones who had a vested interest in Cyprus (and still do!)

[Omer Seyhan]

The “Greek Cypriot” we use to describe ourselves is just a LABEL that only came into use once the British took over to differentiate the Muslims from the Christians on the island. It has NOTHING to do with Greece or Greeks.

Actually, the Greek Cypriots have always been known as Greeks:

...'They were singing in the Greek tongue, so we could not understand them, because all the people in Cyprus speak Greek...'
Jacobus de Vevona, Augustian Monk
-visited Cyprus in 1335


...'The people in Limassol are Greeks and so are all the inhabitants of Cyprus, and they speak Greek...'
Oldrich Prefat, Czech nobleman
-visited Cyprus in 1546

'... for the Turks have no care themselves for agriculture, and if they see any of the Greek natives occupying themselves in cultivating the soil, or amassing wealth, they either harass them with avanie (so the Italians call the fraudulent tricks of the Turks), or drain their resources by exactions, and flay them, so to speak, to the bone...' Ioannes Cotovicus
Doctor of Civil and Canon Law, in the University, of Utrecht
-visited Cyprus in 1598-9

'... The Greeks and other Christian inhabitants cannot be but poor on account of the ill treatment and tyranny which they suffer from the Turks in their person and property... Very many of them, unable to hear any longer this cruel tyranny, wish to turn Turk; but many are rejected, becausee (say their lords) in receiving them into the Moslem faith their tribute would be so much diminished...'
Noel Dominique Hurtrel
"Du Voiage de Jerusalem "
-visited Cyprus in 1670

'... Cyprus surpasses every other Greek island in the number of natives illustrious for their birth, dignity, learning and saintliness... '
Abbe Giovanni Mariti
Official of the Imperial and Tuscan
Consulates, lived in Cyprus 1760-67
Author of the "Viaggi per I'Isola di Cipro"


'... Marcello Cerrutti, a distinguished Italian, formerly an ambassador, now a senator who had studied the Cypriots closely, characterized them truly when he said to me a few years ago in Rome': "Cyprus is the noblest aspect of Hellenism."
("Cipro e la piu nobile fisionomia del grecismo.")
Agnes Smith
Renowned British Novelist,
Author of "Glimpses of Greek Life and Scenery " etc,
visited Cyprus in 1883
(Extract from page 225 of her book
"THOUGH CYPRUS "
Published in England in 1887.

It is also clear that the Ottomans knew the Christians of Cyprus were Greeks, as did the Greek Cypriots themselves, before anything British arrived on the island:

'During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821. After a few years, the archbishops were able to regain authority in religious matters, but as secular leaders they were unable to regain any substantial power until after World War II.'

http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-3469.html

On the other hand, what is a new phenomenon is this idea of a "Cypriot":

'Cypriotism existed neither as a term nor as a concept of a shared identity before the tragic events of 1974. Both communities defined themselves rather as Turks and Greeks respectively.'

'Thus "Cypriotism" is not the result of a long process developed in centuries of identity building, but rather a concept developed by intellectuals aimed to overcome a political and social tragedy.'

http://dzforum.de/downloads/020101007.pdf

Old travelogues tend to contain inaccuracies, the authors' motives, the fact that they were usually not qualified or knowleagable about the places and people they visited and were more inclined towards making generalisations or presumptions must be taken into consideration. Many old travelogues I've read contain unbelievable biases and even racism. This questions their reliability as sources of information.

These travelogues are actually quite useful as they portray the perception that exists. It is obvious that Greek Cypriots have always been perceived by outsiders (as well as by themselves) as Greeks. The Ottomans clearly also regarded them as Greeks, hence they killed Cyprot bishops during the Greek War of Independence. This is the point I am making. The idea of us being Greeks certainly did not suddenly appear from the British as was claimed by Get Real. It is nonsense. The first demand of the Cypriots when the British took control of the island was enosis with Greece. So how did the British create the Greek identity? It's rubbish. What has suddenly appeared however, is this 'Cypriot identity'.

The trouble with you is you accept other people's 'assumptions' too easily. Who said the Ottomans regarded the Greek Cypriots as Greeks? As a Turkish speaker who is also able to read Ottoman Turkish (in the Arabic script) I can tell you that the Greek Cypriots were referred to as "Rum" or "Rumyan", which refers to their "Greek Orthodox Church." Rum is also used in the Black Sea region of Turkey to refer to Greek Orthodox Christians there who could be Georgian / Laz.

The Ottoman / Turkish term for Greek (the way you understand it) is Yunan or Ionian. It is never used to refer to Greek Cypriots. I certainly have never heard it used.

Second, travelogues do contain biases and inaccuracies that can often render the report void. Bear in mind, most travellers only stopped over in Cyprus on their way to the Holy land, they did not have a special interest in Cyprus or reflect for more than a moment whether the islanders were Greek by ethnicity as well as by language. Many subscribed to existing assumptions like you have done.

Some travellers were clearly bias. For example, take the Catholic travelogues (such as Rev. Dandini) which are biased towards the Maronites and Latins.

The Ottomans referred to the GCs as "Rum" because they only differentiated people by their religion, this is well known. This does not mean GCs weren't Greek. If the Ottomans did not consider GCs to be Greeks, why did they kill GO Bishops during the Greek War of Independence? The answer is because they accused them of colluding with the uprising. Why would GCs do such a thing if they were not Greeks? Cyprus was regarded as populated by Greeks by the British even before they even took control in Cyprus. So it was not only these travellers that thought the Cypriots were Greeks. The fact is the GCs spoke Greek and shared the same cultural and religious characteristics as the other Greeks, and were therefore regarded as such.

Whether the travellers were biased or not is not relevant, because I fail to see whether calling Cypriots Greeks or not can be driven by bias. What difference would it make at that time? They were Christians anyway.

Exactly for the reasons you stated. Yes, the Ottomans divided up their subjects according to religion but the way of thinking of the people complemented this as they also identified in religious terms. They did not think as you assume in ethnic terms....

To the Greek Orthodox Christians of Cyprus, their fellow Greek-Orthodox churchmen lived in Greece, Black Sea coast, Central and Western Anatolia, Egypt, Syria, Palestine and also in the Balkans. Union with an independent country (Greece) was the dream of everybody who was a Greek Orthodox Christian living under Ottoman rule. Who would not want independence? What was the alternative, high Ottoman taxation?

[Omer Seyhan]

The “Greek Cypriot” we use to describe ourselves is just a LABEL that only came into use once the British took over to differentiate the Muslims from the Christians on the island. It has NOTHING to do with Greece or Greeks.

Actually, the Greek Cypriots have always been known as Greeks:

...'They were singing in the Greek tongue, so we could not understand them, because all the people in Cyprus speak Greek...'
Jacobus de Vevona, Augustian Monk
-visited Cyprus in 1335


...'The people in Limassol are Greeks and so are all the inhabitants of Cyprus, and they speak Greek...'
Oldrich Prefat, Czech nobleman
-visited Cyprus in 1546

'... for the Turks have no care themselves for agriculture, and if they see any of the Greek natives occupying themselves in cultivating the soil, or amassing wealth, they either harass them with avanie (so the Italians call the fraudulent tricks of the Turks), or drain their resources by exactions, and flay them, so to speak, to the bone...' Ioannes Cotovicus
Doctor of Civil and Canon Law, in the University, of Utrecht
-visited Cyprus in 1598-9

'... The Greeks and other Christian inhabitants cannot be but poor on account of the ill treatment and tyranny which they suffer from the Turks in their person and property... Very many of them, unable to hear any longer this cruel tyranny, wish to turn Turk; but many are rejected, becausee (say their lords) in receiving them into the Moslem faith their tribute would be so much diminished...'
Noel Dominique Hurtrel
"Du Voiage de Jerusalem "
-visited Cyprus in 1670

'... Cyprus surpasses every other Greek island in the number of natives illustrious for their birth, dignity, learning and saintliness... '
Abbe Giovanni Mariti
Official of the Imperial and Tuscan
Consulates, lived in Cyprus 1760-67
Author of the "Viaggi per I'Isola di Cipro"


'... Marcello Cerrutti, a distinguished Italian, formerly an ambassador, now a senator who had studied the Cypriots closely, characterized them truly when he said to me a few years ago in Rome': "Cyprus is the noblest aspect of Hellenism."
("Cipro e la piu nobile fisionomia del grecismo.")
Agnes Smith
Renowned British Novelist,
Author of "Glimpses of Greek Life and Scenery " etc,
visited Cyprus in 1883
(Extract from page 225 of her book
"THOUGH CYPRUS "
Published in England in 1887.

It is also clear that the Ottomans knew the Christians of Cyprus were Greeks, as did the Greek Cypriots themselves, before anything British arrived on the island:

'During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821. After a few years, the archbishops were able to regain authority in religious matters, but as secular leaders they were unable to regain any substantial power until after World War II.'

http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-3469.html

On the other hand, what is a new phenomenon is this idea of a "Cypriot":

'Cypriotism existed neither as a term nor as a concept of a shared identity before the tragic events of 1974. Both communities defined themselves rather as Turks and Greeks respectively.'

'Thus "Cypriotism" is not the result of a long process developed in centuries of identity building, but rather a concept developed by intellectuals aimed to overcome a political and social tragedy.'

http://dzforum.de/downloads/020101007.pdf

Old travelogues tend to contain inaccuracies, the authors' motives, the fact that they were usually not qualified or knowleagable about the places and people they visited and were more inclined towards making generalisations or presumptions must be taken into consideration. Many old travelogues I've read contain unbelievable biases and even racism. This questions their reliability as sources of information.

These travelogues are actually quite useful as they portray the perception that exists. It is obvious that Greek Cypriots have always been perceived by outsiders (as well as by themselves) as Greeks. The Ottomans clearly also regarded them as Greeks, hence they killed Cyprot bishops during the Greek War of Independence. This is the point I am making. The idea of us being Greeks certainly did not suddenly appear from the British as was claimed by Get Real. It is nonsense. The first demand of the Cypriots when the British took control of the island was enosis with Greece. So how did the British create the Greek identity? It's rubbish. What has suddenly appeared however, is this 'Cypriot identity'.

The trouble with you is you accept other people's 'assumptions' too easily. Who said the Ottomans regarded the Greek Cypriots as Greeks? As a Turkish speaker who is also able to read Ottoman Turkish (in the Arabic script) I can tell you that the Greek Cypriots were referred to as "Rum" or "Rumyan", which refers to their "Greek Orthodox Church." Rum is also used in the Black Sea region of Turkey to refer to Greek Orthodox Christians there who could be Georgian / Laz.

The Ottoman / Turkish term for Greek (the way you understand it) is Yunan or Ionian. It is never used to refer to Greek Cypriots. I certainly have never heard it used.

Second, travelogues do contain biases and inaccuracies that can often render the report void. Bear in mind, most travellers only stopped over in Cyprus on their way to the Holy land, they did not have a special interest in Cyprus or reflect for more than a moment whether the islanders were Greek by ethnicity as well as by language. Many subscribed to existing assumptions like you have done.

Some travellers were clearly bias. For example, take the Catholic travelogues (such as Rev. Dandini) which are biased towards the Maronites and Latins.

It's rather shallow to condemn such diverse sources as being biased but the Ottomans, as ONE source, of not being biased ... i.e. the ones who had a vested interest in Cyprus (and still do!)

I think you misunderstood me.

I'm not claiming all travelogues are bias. I just suggested caution as with all sources including Ottoman ones.

My reference to the Ottoman sources was just to point out a well known and uncontested fact in history that the Ottomans referred to the Greek Orthodox Christian community of Cyprus as "Rum." It is still used today and its meaning is different to "Yunan." Its really not a debating issue.

[Paphitis]

Still, it was more important to exclude anything labelled as "Turkish" (exclusively) as being in any way a definition of a Cypriot ....

Then you must be fair and exclude anything labelled as Greek. This is the only way your argument can ever hold water.

Such "exclusion" logic does not apply since, firstly, Greece is not the enemy occupant of Cyprus and, secondly, the (indigenous) native ethnicity of Cyprus is Greek.

But this does not give you the right to exclude our TC friends.

Where have I done that?

The statement only referred to "Turkish" or "Muslim". The former is NOT Cypriot and the latter might or might not be depending on the religious views of the holder (be they GC like Cat Stevens or TC like Deniz) but irrelevant to citizenship.

My vote against "Turkish/Muslim" being Cypriot, does not reflect on TCs. That was YOUR mix-up!

Now sorted!

Kikapu considers himself Turkish and Muslim.

So once again dear Oracle, where does your poll selection leave someone like him, who is more loyal to the RoC than Deniz is IMHO?

Sadly, your choice did reflect on ALL TCs, for most of us, and you did well to clarify that this was not your true intention.

I don't pussy-foot around to please any TC and as for "true intentions", you are the one who made assumptions and required sorting ... The poll was aimed at definitions of Cypriots and Cyprus does not begin and end with TCs. And it certainly has nothing to do, in any legitimate capacity with a Turkish or Muslim identity and that's were I centred my choice.

You chose to bring in TCs because you jumped to the wrong conclusion when you saw the phrase "Turkish/Muslim" ... which does not exclusively define TCs IMHO.

I could have asked Yialousa the same question, but that would have been a waste of time even though asking you proved to be a bigger waste of time. I preferred to ask you because I didn't believe you really held the view you portrayed, and therefore I wanted you to clarify that fact, which you did!

The phrase Turkish/Muslim actually means TCs, and under this definition you inadvertently declared that ALL TCs are not Cypriot.

You would have been much better off choosing this:

Someone who puts Cyprus and all its legitimate people ahead of all other considerations

[Simon]

The “Greek Cypriot” we use to describe ourselves is just a LABEL that only came into use once the British took over to differentiate the Muslims from the Christians on the island. It has NOTHING to do with Greece or Greeks.

Actually, the Greek Cypriots have always been known as Greeks:

...'They were singing in the Greek tongue, so we could not understand them, because all the people in Cyprus speak Greek...'
Jacobus de Vevona, Augustian Monk
-visited Cyprus in 1335


...'The people in Limassol are Greeks and so are all the inhabitants of Cyprus, and they speak Greek...'
Oldrich Prefat, Czech nobleman
-visited Cyprus in 1546

'... for the Turks have no care themselves for agriculture, and if they see any of the Greek natives occupying themselves in cultivating the soil, or amassing wealth, they either harass them with avanie (so the Italians call the fraudulent tricks of the Turks), or drain their resources by exactions, and flay them, so to speak, to the bone...' Ioannes Cotovicus
Doctor of Civil and Canon Law, in the University, of Utrecht
-visited Cyprus in 1598-9

'... The Greeks and other Christian inhabitants cannot be but poor on account of the ill treatment and tyranny which they suffer from the Turks in their person and property... Very many of them, unable to hear any longer this cruel tyranny, wish to turn Turk; but many are rejected, becausee (say their lords) in receiving them into the Moslem faith their tribute would be so much diminished...'
Noel Dominique Hurtrel
"Du Voiage de Jerusalem "
-visited Cyprus in 1670

'... Cyprus surpasses every other Greek island in the number of natives illustrious for their birth, dignity, learning and saintliness... '
Abbe Giovanni Mariti
Official of the Imperial and Tuscan
Consulates, lived in Cyprus 1760-67
Author of the "Viaggi per I'Isola di Cipro"


'... Marcello Cerrutti, a distinguished Italian, formerly an ambassador, now a senator who had studied the Cypriots closely, characterized them truly when he said to me a few years ago in Rome': "Cyprus is the noblest aspect of Hellenism."
("Cipro e la piu nobile fisionomia del grecismo.")
Agnes Smith
Renowned British Novelist,
Author of "Glimpses of Greek Life and Scenery " etc,
visited Cyprus in 1883
(Extract from page 225 of her book
"THOUGH CYPRUS "
Published in England in 1887.

It is also clear that the Ottomans knew the Christians of Cyprus were Greeks, as did the Greek Cypriots themselves, before anything British arrived on the island:

'During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821. After a few years, the archbishops were able to regain authority in religious matters, but as secular leaders they were unable to regain any substantial power until after World War II.'

http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-3469.html

On the other hand, what is a new phenomenon is this idea of a "Cypriot":

'Cypriotism existed neither as a term nor as a concept of a shared identity before the tragic events of 1974. Both communities defined themselves rather as Turks and Greeks respectively.'

'Thus "Cypriotism" is not the result of a long process developed in centuries of identity building, but rather a concept developed by intellectuals aimed to overcome a political and social tragedy.'

http://dzforum.de/downloads/020101007.pdf

Old travelogues tend to contain inaccuracies, the authors' motives, the fact that they were usually not qualified or knowleagable about the places and people they visited and were more inclined towards making generalisations or presumptions must be taken into consideration. Many old travelogues I've read contain unbelievable biases and even racism. This questions their reliability as sources of information.

These travelogues are actually quite useful as they portray the perception that exists. It is obvious that Greek Cypriots have always been perceived by outsiders (as well as by themselves) as Greeks. The Ottomans clearly also regarded them as Greeks, hence they killed Cyprot bishops during the Greek War of Independence. This is the point I am making. The idea of us being Greeks certainly did not suddenly appear from the British as was claimed by Get Real. It is nonsense. The first demand of the Cypriots when the British took control of the island was enosis with Greece. So how did the British create the Greek identity? It's rubbish. What has suddenly appeared however, is this 'Cypriot identity'.

The trouble with you is you accept other people's 'assumptions' too easily. Who said the Ottomans regarded the Greek Cypriots as Greeks? As a Turkish speaker who is also able to read Ottoman Turkish (in the Arabic script) I can tell you that the Greek Cypriots were referred to as "Rum" or "Rumyan", which refers to their "Greek Orthodox Church." Rum is also used in the Black Sea region of Turkey to refer to Greek Orthodox Christians there who could be Georgian / Laz.

The Ottoman / Turkish term for Greek (the way you understand it) is Yunan or Ionian. It is never used to refer to Greek Cypriots. I certainly have never heard it used.

Second, travelogues do contain biases and inaccuracies that can often render the report void. Bear in mind, most travellers only stopped over in Cyprus on their way to the Holy land, they did not have a special interest in Cyprus or reflect for more than a moment whether the islanders were Greek by ethnicity as well as by language. Many subscribed to existing assumptions like you have done.

Some travellers were clearly bias. For example, take the Catholic travelogues (such as Rev. Dandini) which are biased towards the Maronites and Latins.

The Ottomans referred to the GCs as "Rum" because they only differentiated people by their religion, this is well known. This does not mean GCs weren't Greek. If the Ottomans did not consider GCs to be Greeks, why did they kill GO Bishops during the Greek War of Independence? The answer is because they accused them of colluding with the uprising. Why would GCs do such a thing if they were not Greeks? Cyprus was regarded as populated by Greeks by the British even before they even took control in Cyprus. So it was not only these travellers that thought the Cypriots were Greeks. The fact is the GCs spoke Greek and shared the same cultural and religious characteristics as the other Greeks, and were therefore regarded as such.

Whether the travellers were biased or not is not relevant, because I fail to see whether calling Cypriots Greeks or not can be driven by bias. What difference would it make at that time? They were Christians anyway.

Exactly for the reasons you stated. Yes, the Ottomans divided up their subjects according to religion but the way of thinking of the people complemented this as they also identified in religious terms. They did not think as you assume in ethnic terms....

To the Greek Orthodox Christians of Cyprus, their fellow Greek-Orthodox churchmen lived in Greece, Black Sea coast, Central and Western Anatolia, Egypt, Syria, Palestine and also in the Balkans. Union with an independent country (Greece) was the dream of everybody who was a Greek Orthodox Christian living under Ottoman rule. Who would not want independence? What was the alternative, high Ottoman taxation?

I agree, because they regarded themselves as Greeks, and outsiders regarded them as Greeks, they wanted to be part of Greece. This is my point. The GO Church played a big part in it, as it was an intrinsic part of the culture of Greeks. Of course, history shows that Cyprus was colonised by Greeks in ancient times, and has largely retained a distinctly Greek character ever since.

[Simon]

The Cypriot identity comes NATURALLY simply because Cyprus and her Cypriot inhabitants exist and have existed for millenniums and way before anything Greek or Turkish ever existed!

What is “perceived” and what is reality are two different things.

In that case all Australians are native Aboriginals because they pre dated European settlement by millenniums...

Go back to sleep GR!

"Perception" is everything in this life. The fact is many TCs might actually be GCs, but they perceive themselves to be TCs, and that is all that really matters.

Of course, I could consider myself to be a tribal native of Australia, but everyone else would think I'm deluded...

Of course, "perception" within reason, which must also be shared by outsiders.