Cyprus-Forum.com

[Paphitis]

If we are not talking legal terms then you enter a grey area where anybody in theory can define themselves as Cypriot. There are no critieria, rules, procedure etc, they are simply free to call themselves Cypriot. This means that anything you say is just your own opinion.

Legally, even if a Turkish Cypriot sold Greek Cypriot land in the north, however wrong it is, and whether they are taken to court or not, sued or not, there is no law that strips them of their citizenship as a result of it. Similarly, a Greek Cypriot who sells Turkish Cypriot land cannot be stripped of their citizenship.

Aiding or abetting an occupation, being a former member of terrorist groups EOKA (A and B) and TMT is wrong but not illegal as far as Republic of Cyprus's own Laws are concerned.

Now if it was up to me I would empower the Cypriot state and its security services to prosecute ex-terrorists even after a settlement. The state should also prosecute the most severe collaborators of the occupation (including those who benefitted the most from it). However, I would not condemn all collaboraters in the north as most are just trying to survive under the difficult circumstances in which they find themselves.

If we were talking in legal terms, then The Cypriot should have quoted the RoC's immigration and citizenship laws. And people that hold citizenship are not necessarily loyal to Cyprus, but are legally defined as Cypriot.

I don't see this poll referring to any RoC legal Acts pertaining to citizenship.

The trio of British citizens (of Pakistani origin) who tried to blow up jets over the Atlantic with British peopler inside are not loyal to the British state and its foreign policy objectives, but they are still citizens...

There is no law in the Uk that would deprive a person of citizenship if they are proven to be disloyal or commit terrible crimes.

As far as Cyprus is concerned even if a Cypriot (whatever his community) refuses to call himself a Cypriot, hates the RoC flag and talks against it, but has RoC citizenship then he / she is Cypriot. If the same Cypriot gets stopped by police in France, goes on a fly-drive to the US or applies for university in Ireland, he / she will be considered as Cypriot. Their opinion about it means nothing to customs, traffic police or universities and a whole lot of other people.

This whole identity issue, which we are discussing here, and which really is not an issue at all is purely a "Cypriot internal affair." It has nothing to do with official, factual and legal reality.

Yes, in legal terms, those terrorists are still British citizens, no one is claiming anything else.

But this poll is not about the legal citizenship laws of the RoC, because The Cypriot just asked, in very simple terms, what our opinion is for the definition of Cypriot, without taking into consideration the countries citizenship regulations.

Naturally, all legitimate TCs, having Cypriot heritage, are entitled to RoC citizenship and ID cards in accordance with the RoC constitution. No one claims otherwise.

[Oracle]

Still, it was more important to exclude anything labelled as "Turkish" (exclusively) as being in any way a definition of a Cypriot ....

Then you must be fair and exclude anything labelled as Greek. This is the only way your argument can ever hold water.

Such "exclusion" logic does not apply since, firstly, Greece is not the enemy occupant of Cyprus and, secondly, the (indigenous) native ethnicity of Cyprus is Greek.

But this does not give you the right to exclude our TC friends.

Where have I done that?

The statement only referred to "Turkish" or "Muslim". The former is NOT Cypriot and the latter might or might not be depending on the religious views of the holder (be they GC like Cat Stevens or TC like Deniz) but irrelevant to citizenship.

My vote against "Turkish/Muslim" being Cypriot, does not reflect on TCs. That was YOUR mix-up!

Now sorted!

[Paphitis]

The Cypriot identity comes NATURALLY simply because Cyprus and her Cypriot inhabitants exist and have existed for millenniums and way before anything Greek or Turkish ever existed!

What is “perceived” and what is reality are two different things.

In that case all Australians are native Aboriginals because they pre dated European settlement by millenniums...

Go back to sleep GR!

[Simon]

'Thus "Cypriotism" is not the result of a long process developed in centuries of identity building, but rather a concept developed by intellectuals aimed to overcome a political and social tragedy.'

http://dzforum.de/downloads/020101007.pdf

Do you consider yourself an intellectual, Simon?

How is that relevant?

Are you not an intellectual unless you subscribe to this scheme? Must all intellectuals come to the same conclusion?

If, in order to be an intellectual, you must give up your identity which has been held for thousands of years, then an intellectual I am certainly not.

Thought so... but I still believe in you, your Beatitude.

If you believe that by simply subscribing to this scheme you are an intellectual The Cypriot, then you are sadly mistaken.

If you also believe that every intellectual thinks the same way, you are also sadly mistaken.

You can't deal with the content of the link I posted, (from a person who states 'Cypriotism' does not exist and yet probably considers himself to be an intellectual) and so you bring up all this nonsense in order to deflect the debate. Nice try.

Say a prayer for me, your Beatitude, and leave the thinking to others.

What, others like you?

No thanks.

[Omer Seyhan]

The “Greek Cypriot” we use to describe ourselves is just a LABEL that only came into use once the British took over to differentiate the Muslims from the Christians on the island. It has NOTHING to do with Greece or Greeks.

Actually, the Greek Cypriots have always been known as Greeks:

...'They were singing in the Greek tongue, so we could not understand them, because all the people in Cyprus speak Greek...'
Jacobus de Vevona, Augustian Monk
-visited Cyprus in 1335


...'The people in Limassol are Greeks and so are all the inhabitants of Cyprus, and they speak Greek...'
Oldrich Prefat, Czech nobleman
-visited Cyprus in 1546

'... for the Turks have no care themselves for agriculture, and if they see any of the Greek natives occupying themselves in cultivating the soil, or amassing wealth, they either harass them with avanie (so the Italians call the fraudulent tricks of the Turks), or drain their resources by exactions, and flay them, so to speak, to the bone...' Ioannes Cotovicus
Doctor of Civil and Canon Law, in the University, of Utrecht
-visited Cyprus in 1598-9

'... The Greeks and other Christian inhabitants cannot be but poor on account of the ill treatment and tyranny which they suffer from the Turks in their person and property... Very many of them, unable to hear any longer this cruel tyranny, wish to turn Turk; but many are rejected, becausee (say their lords) in receiving them into the Moslem faith their tribute would be so much diminished...'
Noel Dominique Hurtrel
"Du Voiage de Jerusalem "
-visited Cyprus in 1670

'... Cyprus surpasses every other Greek island in the number of natives illustrious for their birth, dignity, learning and saintliness... '
Abbe Giovanni Mariti
Official of the Imperial and Tuscan
Consulates, lived in Cyprus 1760-67
Author of the "Viaggi per I'Isola di Cipro"


'... Marcello Cerrutti, a distinguished Italian, formerly an ambassador, now a senator who had studied the Cypriots closely, characterized them truly when he said to me a few years ago in Rome': "Cyprus is the noblest aspect of Hellenism."
("Cipro e la piu nobile fisionomia del grecismo.")
Agnes Smith
Renowned British Novelist,
Author of "Glimpses of Greek Life and Scenery " etc,
visited Cyprus in 1883
(Extract from page 225 of her book
"THOUGH CYPRUS "
Published in England in 1887.

It is also clear that the Ottomans knew the Christians of Cyprus were Greeks, as did the Greek Cypriots themselves, before anything British arrived on the island:

'During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821. After a few years, the archbishops were able to regain authority in religious matters, but as secular leaders they were unable to regain any substantial power until after World War II.'

http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-3469.html

On the other hand, what is a new phenomenon is this idea of a "Cypriot":

'Cypriotism existed neither as a term nor as a concept of a shared identity before the tragic events of 1974. Both communities defined themselves rather as Turks and Greeks respectively.'

'Thus "Cypriotism" is not the result of a long process developed in centuries of identity building, but rather a concept developed by intellectuals aimed to overcome a political and social tragedy.'

http://dzforum.de/downloads/020101007.pdf

Old travelogues tend to contain inaccuracies, the authors' motives, the fact that they were usually not qualified or knowleagable about the places and people they visited and were more inclined towards making generalisations or presumptions must be taken into consideration. Many old travelogues I've read contain unbelievable biases and even racism. This questions their reliability as sources of information.

These travelogues are actually quite useful as they portray the perception that exists. It is obvious that Greek Cypriots have always been perceived by outsiders (as well as by themselves) as Greeks. The Ottomans clearly also regarded them as Greeks, hence they killed Cyprot bishops during the Greek War of Independence. This is the point I am making. The idea of us being Greeks certainly did not suddenly appear from the British as was claimed by Get Real. It is nonsense. The first demand of the Cypriots when the British took control of the island was enosis with Greece. So how did the British create the Greek identity? It's rubbish. What has suddenly appeared however, is this 'Cypriot identity'.

The trouble with you is you accept other people's 'assumptions' too easily. Who said the Ottomans regarded the Greek Cypriots as Greeks? As a Turkish speaker who is also able to read Ottoman Turkish (in the Arabic script) I can tell you that the Greek Cypriots were referred to as "Rum" or "Rumyan", which refers to their "Greek Orthodox Church." Rum is also used in the Black Sea region of Turkey to refer to Greek Orthodox Christians there who could be Georgian / Laz.

The Ottoman / Turkish term for Greek (the way you understand it) is Yunan or Ionian. It is never used to refer to Greek Cypriots. I certainly have never heard it used.

Second, travelogues do contain biases and inaccuracies that can often render the report void. Bear in mind, most travellers only stopped over in Cyprus on their way to the Holy land, they did not have a special interest in Cyprus or reflect for more than a moment whether the islanders were Greek by ethnicity as well as by language. Many subscribed to existing assumptions like you have done.

Some travellers were clearly bias. For example, take the Catholic travelogues (such as Rev. Dandini) which are biased towards the Maronites and Latins.

[Simon]

The Cypriot identity comes NATURALLY simply because Cyprus and her Cypriot inhabitants exist and have existed for millenniums and way before anything Greek or Turkish ever existed!

What is “perceived” and what is reality are two different things.

In that case all Australians are native Aboriginals because they pre dated European settlement by millenniums...

Go back to sleep GR!

"Perception" is everything in this life. The fact is many TCs might actually be GCs, but they perceive themselves to be TCs, and that is all that really matters.

[The Cypriot]

The trouble with you is you accept other people's 'assumptions' too easily. Who said the Ottomans regarded the Greek Cypriots as Greeks? As a Turkish speaker who is also able to read Ottoman Turkish (in the Arabic script) I can tell you that the Greek Cypriots were referred to as "Rum" or "Rumyan", which refers to their "Greek Orthodox Church." Rum is also used in the Black Sea region of Turkey to refer to Greek Orthodox Christians there who could be Georgian / Laz.

The Ottoman / Turkish term for Greek (the way you understand it) is Yunan or Ionian. It is never used to refer to Greek Cypriots. I certainly have never heard it used.

Second, travelogues do contain biases and inaccuracies that can often render the report void. Bear in mind, most travellers only stopped over in Cyprus on their way to the Holy land, they did not have a special interest in Cyprus or reflect for more than a moment whether the islanders were Greek by ethnicity as well as by language. Many subscribed to existing assumptions like you have done.

Some travellers were clearly bias. For example, take the Catholic travelogues (such as Rev. Dandini) which are biased towards the Maronites and Latins.

Unless I'm very much mistaken, "Rum"/"Rumyan" means Roman.

[Paphitis]

Still, it was more important to exclude anything labelled as "Turkish" (exclusively) as being in any way a definition of a Cypriot ....

Then you must be fair and exclude anything labelled as Greek. This is the only way your argument can ever hold water.

Such "exclusion" logic does not apply since, firstly, Greece is not the enemy occupant of Cyprus and, secondly, the (indigenous) native ethnicity of Cyprus is Greek.

But this does not give you the right to exclude our TC friends.

Where have I done that?

The statement only referred to "Turkish" or "Muslim". The former is NOT Cypriot and the latter might or might not be depending on the religious views of the holder (be they GC like Cat Stevens or TC like Deniz) but irrelevant to citizenship.

My vote against "Turkish/Muslim" being Cypriot, does not reflect on TCs. That was YOUR mix-up!

Now sorted!

Kikapu considers himself Turkish and Muslim.

So once again dear Oracle, where does your poll selection leave someone like him, who is more loyal to the RoC than Deniz is IMHO?

Sadly, your choice did reflect on ALL TCs, for most of us, and you did well to clarify that this was not your true intention.

[Omer Seyhan]

The Cypriot identity comes NATURALLY simply because Cyprus and her Cypriot inhabitants exist and have existed for millenniums and way before anything Greek or Turkish ever existed!

What is “perceived” and what is reality are two different things.

In that case all Australians are native Aboriginals because they pre dated European settlement by millenniums...

Go back to sleep GR!

"Perception" is everything in this life. The fact is many TCs might actually be GCs, but they perceive themselves to be TCs, and that is all that really matters.

Not really.... Some Turkish Cypriot origins are very diverse, it contains many many elements.

To name a few: Greek Cypriot, Turkish-Alevi, Kurdish-Alevi, Turkish-Sunni, Caramanians, Palestinians, Syrian Alawaites, Turkmens from Iraq, Egyptians, Sudanese, Maronites, Latins, Armenians, Roma Gypsey and now British (which include English, Welsh, Irish and Scottish).

If we were all G/Cs then how do you explain the presence of the Turkish Cypriot vernacular in Cyprus? A vernacular that contains Ottoman Turkish, Yoruk Turkish (Turkmen), Cypriot-Greek, Sanna, English, Italian, Roma-language and Arabic.

Sorry I forget to mention: Albanians, Bosnians, Circassians, Janisseries (who could have been anything), Persians, Jews and even Kashmiri is recorded by Ottoman archives.

[Paphitis]

The Cypriot identity comes NATURALLY simply because Cyprus and her Cypriot inhabitants exist and have existed for millenniums and way before anything Greek or Turkish ever existed!

What is “perceived” and what is reality are two different things.

In that case all Australians are native Aboriginals because they pre dated European settlement by millenniums...

Go back to sleep GR!

"Perception" is everything in this life. The fact is many TCs might actually be GCs, but they perceive themselves to be TCs, and that is all that really matters.

Of course, I could consider myself to be a tribal native of Australia, but everyone else would think I'm deluded...