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Definition of a Cypriot (Take II)

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

What's your definition of a Cypriot?

Someone who puts Cyprus and all its legitimate people ahead of all other considerations
7
19%
Someone who (thinks he/she) is Greek really but comes from Cyprus
1
3%
Someone from Cyprus who isn't Turkish/Muslim
1
3%
Someone who says they're Cypriot but only to give Turkey influence on the island
1
3%
Someone who has a Cypriot passport. It's a nationality only.
9
24%
A Greek Cypriot only
3
8%
A Greek or Turkish Cypriot
11
30%
Someone who can't do polls on the CF properly (go gently on me)
4
11%
 
Total votes : 37

Postby Simon » Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:25 pm

Get Real! wrote:The “Greek Cypriot” we use to describe ourselves is just a LABEL that only came into use once the British took over to differentiate the Muslims from the Christians on the island. It has NOTHING to do with Greece or Greeks.


Actually, the Greek Cypriots have always been known as Greeks:

...'They were singing in the Greek tongue, so we could not understand them, because all the people in Cyprus speak Greek...'
Jacobus de Vevona, Augustian Monk
-visited Cyprus in 1335


...'The people in Limassol are Greeks and so are all the inhabitants of Cyprus, and they speak Greek...'
Oldrich Prefat, Czech nobleman
-visited Cyprus in 1546

'... for the Turks have no care themselves for agriculture, and if they see any of the Greek natives occupying themselves in cultivating the soil, or amassing wealth, they either harass them with avanie (so the Italians call the fraudulent tricks of the Turks), or drain their resources by exactions, and flay them, so to speak, to the bone...' Ioannes Cotovicus
Doctor of Civil and Canon Law, in the University, of Utrecht
-visited Cyprus in 1598-9

'... The Greeks and other Christian inhabitants cannot be but poor on account of the ill treatment and tyranny which they suffer from the Turks in their person and property... Very many of them, unable to hear any longer this cruel tyranny, wish to turn Turk; but many are rejected, becausee (say their lords) in receiving them into the Moslem faith their tribute would be so much diminished...'
Noel Dominique Hurtrel
"Du Voiage de Jerusalem "
-visited Cyprus in 1670

'... Cyprus surpasses every other Greek island in the number of natives illustrious for their birth, dignity, learning and saintliness... '
Abbe Giovanni Mariti
Official of the Imperial and Tuscan
Consulates, lived in Cyprus 1760-67
Author of the "Viaggi per I'Isola di Cipro"


'... Marcello Cerrutti, a distinguished Italian, formerly an ambassador, now a senator who had studied the Cypriots closely, characterized them truly when he said to me a few years ago in Rome': "Cyprus is the noblest aspect of Hellenism."
("Cipro e la piu nobile fisionomia del grecismo.")
Agnes Smith
Renowned British Novelist,
Author of "Glimpses of Greek Life and Scenery " etc,
visited Cyprus in 1883
(Extract from page 225 of her book
"THOUGH CYPRUS "
Published in England in 1887.

It is also clear that the Ottomans knew the Christians of Cyprus were Greeks, as did the Greek Cypriots themselves, before anything British arrived on the island:

'During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821. After a few years, the archbishops were able to regain authority in religious matters, but as secular leaders they were unable to regain any substantial power until after World War II.'

http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-3469.html

On the other hand, what is a new phenomenon is this idea of a "Cypriot":

'Cypriotism existed neither as a term nor as a concept of a shared identity before the tragic events of 1974. Both communities defined themselves rather as Turks and Greeks respectively.'

'Thus "Cypriotism" is not the result of a long process developed in centuries of identity building, but rather a concept developed by intellectuals aimed to overcome a political and social tragedy.'

http://dzforum.de/downloads/020101007.pdf
Last edited by Simon on Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Paphitis » Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:26 pm

Paphitis wrote:
Omer Seyhan wrote:If we are not talking legal terms then you enter a grey area where anybody in theory can define themselves as Cypriot. There are no critieria, rules, procedure etc, they are simply free to call themselves Cypriot. This means that anything you say is just your own opinion.

Legally, even if a Turkish Cypriot sold Greek Cypriot land in the north, however wrong it is, and whether they are taken to court or not, sued or not, there is no law that strips them of their citizenship as a result of it. Similarly, a Greek Cypriot who sells Turkish Cypriot land cannot be stripped of their citizenship.

Aiding or abetting an occupation, being a former member of terrorist groups EOKA (A and B) and TMT is wrong but not illegal as far as Republic of Cyprus's own Laws are concerned.

Now if it was up to me I would empower the Cypriot state and its security services to prosecute ex-terrorists even after a settlement. The state should also prosecute the most severe collaborators of the occupation (including those who benefitted the most from it). However, I would not condemn all collaboraters in the north as most are just trying to survive under the difficult circumstances in which they find themselves.


If we were talking in legal terms, then The Cypriot should have quoted the RoC's immigration and citizenship laws. And people that hold citizenship are not necessarily loyal to Cyprus, but are legally defined as Cypriot.

I don't see this poll referring to any RoC legal Acts pertaining to citizenship.


Furthermore, I was once not able to obtain Cypriot citizenship because my father left Cyprus before 1960 and hence never held RoC citizenship.

Does this mean I was not Cypriot?

I then gave up, because for a while I would not be allowed to have dual citizenship of any sought and applied at a later date and used political nepotism to obtain my citizenship, believe it or not.

I actually had to bypass the Cyprus Consulate in Canberra...
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Postby Get Real! » Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:32 pm

Simon wrote:Actually, the Greek Cypriots have always been known as Greeks:

...'They were singing in the Greek tongue, so we could not understand them, because all the people in Cyprus speak Greek...'
Jacobus de Vevona, Augustian Monk
-visited Cyprus in 1335


Rubbish!

I thought you didn't like copying from the Macedonian forum?

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/ ... yprus.html
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Postby The Cypriot » Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:37 pm

Simon wrote:'Thus "Cypriotism" is not the result of a long process developed in centuries of identity building, but rather a concept developed by intellectuals aimed to overcome a political and social tragedy.'

http://dzforum.de/downloads/020101007.pdf


Do you consider yourself an intellectual, Simon?
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Postby Paphitis » Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:37 pm

Oracle wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
Oracle wrote:
Paphitis wrote: I am suggesting that someone who puts Cyprus and all its legitimate people ahead of all other considerations is the correct answer, because it is the only sensible way of answering the poll question, given the choices we have in this poll. You know this, but you are as stubborn as ever....:wink:


We're back to square ONE. :roll:

That statement did not appeal because of the small print at the end ... i.e. : "ahead of all other considerations".

That last bit is a mine-field and I would have voted for the same as you IF The Cypriot had left that bit out or inserted the word "legitimate" in front of "considerations" since I wouldn't want to sign away to any unscrupulous "considerations" such as giving away all first-born sons or some such nonsense ....


Let's take it from the top Oracle....:lol:

someone who puts Cyprus and all its legitimate people ahead of all other considerations

Someone who puts CYPRUS and ALL its LEGITIMATE people ahead of all other considerations is the only sensible answer, because anyone who puts Cyprus ahead of all other considerations can not possibly be considered a minefield to Cyprus....:roll:


I think you do realise that the word "considerations" also required the qualifier: "legitimate" ...


I see what you are driving at, but this is irrelevant in this case because it clearly states that a Cypriot is someone who puts Cyprus and all its legitimate people ahead of all other considerations.

The statement is self explanatory Oracle.

Still, it was more important to exclude anything labelled as "Turkish" (exclusively) as being in any way a definition of a Cypriot ....


Then you must be fair and exclude anything labelled as Greek. This is the only way your argument can ever hold water.

The term : "Turkish/Muslim" equals "Turkish" or "Muslim" and neither of those define TCs exclusively! They are JUST that. Either "Turkish" or either "Muslim" (and the two jointly do not add up to TC)


It includes ALL Turkish Cypriots, meaning that we are not differentiating between those that are destroying Cyprus and those TCs who are our friends. The Muslim was added to categorize those Turkish Cypriots that may not feel comfortable with the Turkish classification, and this may be the case for some...
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Postby Simon » Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:40 pm

Get Real! wrote:
Simon wrote:Actually, the Greek Cypriots have always been known as Greeks:

...'They were singing in the Greek tongue, so we could not understand them, because all the people in Cyprus speak Greek...'
Jacobus de Vevona, Augustian Monk
-visited Cyprus in 1335


Rubbish!

I thought you didn't like copying from the Macedonian forum?

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/ ... yprus.html


Get Real! wrote:
Simon wrote:Actually, the Greek Cypriots have always been known as Greeks:

...'They were singing in the Greek tongue, so we could not understand them, because all the people in Cyprus speak Greek...'
Jacobus de Vevona, Augustian Monk
-visited Cyprus in 1335


Rubbish!

I thought you didn't like copying from the Macedonian forum?

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/ ... yprus.html


These are quotes GR of people who visited Cyprus many hundreds of years ago, it doesn't matter where they are quoted. Further, this is not an FYROM forum.
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Postby The Cypriot » Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:40 pm

Omer Seyhan wrote:If we are not talking legal terms then you enter a grey area where anybody in theory can define themselves as Cypriot. There are no critieria, rules, procedure etc, they are simply free to call themselves Cypriot. This means that anything you say is just your own opinion.


Which is the purpose of this poll. Have you voted yet?

Omer Seyhan wrote:Legally, even if a Turkish Cypriot sold Greek Cypriot land in the north, however wrong it is, and whether they are taken to court or not, sued or not, there is no law that strips them of their citizenship as a result of it. Similarly, a Greek Cypriot who sells Turkish Cypriot land cannot be stripped of their citizenship.

Aiding or abetting an occupation, being a former member of terrorist groups EOKA (A and B) and TMT is wrong but not illegal as far as Republic of Cyprus's own Laws are concerned.

Now if it was up to me I would empower the Cypriot state and its security services to prosecute ex-terrorists even after a settlement. The state should also prosecute the most severe collaborators of the occupation (including those who benefitted the most from it). However, I would not condemn all collaboraters in the north as most are just trying to survive under the difficult circumstances in which they find themselves.


What is the punishment for treason in civilised countries? That's what Cypriot traitors should get. After a fair trial.
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Postby Get Real! » Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:41 pm

The Cypriot wrote:
Simon wrote:'Thus "Cypriotism" is not the result of a long process developed in centuries of identity building, but rather a concept developed by intellectuals aimed to overcome a political and social tragedy.'

http://dzforum.de/downloads/020101007.pdf


Do you consider yourself an intellectual, Simon?

:lol:
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Postby Simon » Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:42 pm

The Cypriot wrote:
Simon wrote:'Thus "Cypriotism" is not the result of a long process developed in centuries of identity building, but rather a concept developed by intellectuals aimed to overcome a political and social tragedy.'

http://dzforum.de/downloads/020101007.pdf


Do you consider yourself an intellectual, Simon?


How is that relevant?

Are you not an intellectual unless you subscribe to this scheme? Must all intellectuals come to the same conclusion?

If, in order to be an intellectual, you must give up your identity which has been held for thousands of years, then an intellectual I am certainly not.
Last edited by Simon on Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Get Real! » Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:43 pm

Simon wrote:These are quotes GR of people who visited Cyprus many hundreds of years ago, it doesn't matter where they are quoted. Further, this is not an FYROM forum.

Funnily enough, you can't find these "quotes" anywhere else on the whole Internet! :lol:
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