Cyprus-Forum.com

[The Cypriot]

Your choice, by "above all other considerations" is a little romantic and vague to the point of absurdity ....

Call yourself an inheritor of ancient Greek wisdom and civilisation when you are able simply to dismiss its democratic ideals as romantic, vague and absurd - when they don't suit you?

[Paphitis]

Cypriot, can you tell us what you mean by the following?

Someone from Cyprus who isn't Turkish/Muslim

Most people would take this to include ALL TCs as well. I certainly did, and I think this was your intention. That is probably why you included 'Muslim' as a descriptor.

[The Cypriot]

Perhaps The Cypriot can clarify what he means by the following:

Someone from Cyprus who isn't Turkish/'Muslim'

Someone from Cyprus of Muslim extraction... whose forefathers perhaps converted from Christianity (catholic or orthodox) for the avoidance of tax and persecution during the arduous years of Ottoman rule. Such Cypriots might not necessarily be comfortable to identify with the Turkish nation... but are nevertheless not part of the Cypriot Christian majority.

And since you (ORACLE) voted as you did, you excluded ALL Turkish Cypriots. And once you identified this folly, you accused The Cypriot for "politically loading" this poll and quickly made reference to it so that you could wiggle your way out of this dilemma... ...Very clever of you...

I thought it was pretty stupid.

Nevertheless, I am satisfied that you have admitted that some Turks (TCs) are indeed Cypriot. We can't have people like Kikapu get the wrong idea...

The Cypriot was not referring to the 300,000 Settlers, because then he would not have classified them as Turkish/Muslim.

A settler might have been included here:

* Someone who says they're Cypriot but only to give Turkey influence on the island

[Oracle]

Your choice, by "above all other considerations" is a little romantic and vague to the point of absurdity ....

Call yourself an inheritor of ancient Greek wisdom and civilisation when you are able simply to dismiss its democratic ideals as romantic, vague and absurd - when they don't suit you?

Such a statement could signify exclusion of Human Rights considerations for the individual. I therefore, could not endorse it.

As I said, it is vague to the point of absurdity.

As is the whole of your poll!

[Paphitis]

Perhaps The Cypriot can clarify what he means by the following:

Someone from Cyprus who isn't Turkish/'Muslim'

Someone from Cyprus of Muslim extraction... whose forefathers perhaps converted from Christianity (catholic or orthodox) for the avoidance of tax and persecution during the arduous years of Ottoman rule. Such Cypriots might not necessarily be comfortable to identify with the Turkish nation... but are nevertheless not part of the Cypriot Christian majority.

And since you (ORACLE) voted as you did, you excluded ALL Turkish Cypriots. And once you identified this folly, you accused The Cypriot for "politically loading" this poll and quickly made reference to it so that you could wiggle your way out of this dilemma... ...Very clever of you...

I thought it was pretty stupid.

Nevertheless, I am satisfied that you have admitted that some Turks (TCs) are indeed Cypriot. We can't have people like Kikapu get the wrong idea...

The Cypriot was not referring to the 300,000 Settlers, because then he would not have classified them as Turkish/Muslim.

A settler might have been included here:

* Someone who says they're Cypriot but only to give Turkey influence on the island

That is what I understood as well.

So the following identifies the TC populace regardless of whether they are comfortable as identifying themselves as Turkish Cypriot or not, and that is why you included 'Muslim':

Someone from Cyprus who isn't Turkish/Muslim

And the following might identify all Turkish settlers:

Someone who says they're Cypriot but only to give Turkey influence on the island.

Thank you for clearing this up...Oracle was doing my head in...

I have heard that some TCs may actually be GC converts. Apparently they did this to avoid draconian land and property taxes against the GCs, which does not say much about their allegiance to Cyprus if all they worried about was their wealth...Some things never change...

[Oracle]

I voted for someone who is not "Turkish".

At the moment they are the enemy occupants and so should not be given citizenship/Cypriot Nationality, even if applying in some legitimate capacity (standard practice during war, I think).

The "Muslim" bit was superfluous as Cypriot citizens are not defined by their religion.

So where does that leave my friend Kikapu? He is Cypriot of Turkish origin, but his allegiance is towards justice, and hence with the RoC and against Turkey.

Kikapu isn't "Turkish".... (as far as I can gather, from his posts)

He is a Turkish Cypriot, and from what I can gather, he is spurred on by justice and the threat the Turkish Occupation poses towards the Turkish Cypriot culture in Cyprus. He is fighting for justice (therefore loyal to RoC) and against the potential extinction of TCs in Cyprus.

Well, The Cypriot's politically loaded poll statements were hard to manoeuvre around ... But, this is the one I answered to:

Someone from Cyprus who isn't Turkish/Muslim

Now, it's a shame he attached "Muslim" to that, which obviously frightened people off from choosing it. It is independent of "Turkish" IMHO and also irrelevant to being "Cypriot" or not, since religion does not enter into the political citizenship.

The statement therefore becomes:

Someone from Cyprus who isn't Turkish

... which then is easy to answer because if they are "Turkish" then they cannot be "Cypriot" also (and especially whist they are the enemy occupant).

Yes, but I was talking about some Turkish Cypriots that are loyal to the RoC. One such Cypriot would have to be Kikapu, and according to what you selected in this silly poll, he is not a Cypriot.

I agree with you that most TCs have proven to be disloyal to Cyprus, by aiding and abetting the Turkish Occupation. Hence they are no different to the Turkish invaders...

This is probably why you chose the following:

Someone from Cyprus who isn't Turkish/'Muslim(?)'

But perhaps you might have been better off voting for this:

Someone who puts Cyprus and all its legitimate people ahead of all other considerations

Can you clarify further?

Well, can you hold dual citizenship for both the RoC and Turkey?

I don't think so ... So, anyone who is "Turkish" cannot also be "Cypriot".

Your choice, by "above all other considerations" is a little romantic and vague to the point of absurdity ....

Is dual citizenship illegal in the RoC?

And do TCs at large qualify for Turkish citizenship? I doubt it.

But that would be irrelevant in any case.

Once again I remind you that I am talking about some Turkish Cypriots (like Kikapu) who are against the occupation, want a unified Cyprus.

If I am romantic and naive, you are arrogant or just trying to play hardball by acting tough, and excluding all Turkish Cypriots by voting for something I know you don't truly believe....I think you are being absurd and dishonest!

Now you "plonker" ... Turkey wouldn't allow dual citizenship because they don't recognise the RoC.

Stop bringing in TCs because The Cypriots' statement only mentioned "Turkish" and not TC .... and there are probably 300,000 Turkish (Anatolian Settlers) on Cyprus for whom that statement does apply!

I didn't mention TCs once ... you did!

And The Cypriot did as well, and you voted for it.

Oracle...in Cyprus we have several ethnic groups such as Greek, Turkish, Armenian, Latin and Maronite plus several more recent arrivals who may also be Cypriot.

Perhaps The Cypriot can clarify what he means by the following:

Someone from Cyprus who isn't Turkish/'Muslim'

And since he also included "Muslim" as a descriptor, which you pointed out, it can only mean that the above selection includes ALL Turkish Cypriots as well (Cypriot can clarify this himself).

And since you voted as you did, you excluded ALL Turkish Cypriots. And once you identified this folly, you accused The Cypriot for "politically loading" this poll and quickly made reference to it so that you could wiggle your way out of this dilemma... ...Very clever of you...

I knew exactly why I voted as I did and if you go back you will see my explanation before this debate!

Nevertheless, I am satisfied that you have admitted that some Turks (TCs) are indeed Cypriot. We can't have people like Kikapu get the wrong idea...

You're making irrelevant assumptions, again.

If someone is described as"Turkish" they are not necessarily also "TC" and vice versa.

I think The Cypriot has had you!

The Cypriot was not referring to the 300,000 Settlers, because then he would not have classified them as Turkish/Muslim.

Oh but that's precisely how he DID classify them!

My mind immediately went to Cat Stevens who is GC but also Muslim ... which is why I objected to both Turkish and Muslim coming under the same vote!

[Paphitis]

I voted for someone who is not "Turkish".

At the moment they are the enemy occupants and so should not be given citizenship/Cypriot Nationality, even if applying in some legitimate capacity (standard practice during war, I think).

The "Muslim" bit was superfluous as Cypriot citizens are not defined by their religion.

So where does that leave my friend Kikapu? He is Cypriot of Turkish origin, but his allegiance is towards justice, and hence with the RoC and against Turkey.

Kikapu isn't "Turkish".... (as far as I can gather, from his posts)

He is a Turkish Cypriot, and from what I can gather, he is spurred on by justice and the threat the Turkish Occupation poses towards the Turkish Cypriot culture in Cyprus. He is fighting for justice (therefore loyal to RoC) and against the potential extinction of TCs in Cyprus.

Well, The Cypriot's politically loaded poll statements were hard to manoeuvre around ... But, this is the one I answered to:

Someone from Cyprus who isn't Turkish/Muslim

Now, it's a shame he attached "Muslim" to that, which obviously frightened people off from choosing it. It is independent of "Turkish" IMHO and also irrelevant to being "Cypriot" or not, since religion does not enter into the political citizenship.

The statement therefore becomes:

Someone from Cyprus who isn't Turkish

... which then is easy to answer because if they are "Turkish" then they cannot be "Cypriot" also (and especially whist they are the enemy occupant).

Yes, but I was talking about some Turkish Cypriots that are loyal to the RoC. One such Cypriot would have to be Kikapu, and according to what you selected in this silly poll, he is not a Cypriot.

I agree with you that most TCs have proven to be disloyal to Cyprus, by aiding and abetting the Turkish Occupation. Hence they are no different to the Turkish invaders...

This is probably why you chose the following:

Someone from Cyprus who isn't Turkish/'Muslim(?)'

But perhaps you might have been better off voting for this:

Someone who puts Cyprus and all its legitimate people ahead of all other considerations

Can you clarify further?

Well, can you hold dual citizenship for both the RoC and Turkey?

I don't think so ... So, anyone who is "Turkish" cannot also be "Cypriot".

Your choice, by "above all other considerations" is a little romantic and vague to the point of absurdity ....

Is dual citizenship illegal in the RoC?

And do TCs at large qualify for Turkish citizenship? I doubt it.

But that would be irrelevant in any case.

Once again I remind you that I am talking about some Turkish Cypriots (like Kikapu) who are against the occupation, want a unified Cyprus.

If I am romantic and naive, you are arrogant or just trying to play hardball by acting tough, and excluding all Turkish Cypriots by voting for something I know you don't truly believe....I think you are being absurd and dishonest!

Now you "plonker" ... Turkey wouldn't allow dual citizenship because they don't recognise the RoC.

Stop bringing in TCs because The Cypriots' statement only mentioned "Turkish" and not TC .... and there are probably 300,000 Turkish (Anatolian Settlers) on Cyprus for whom that statement does apply!

I didn't mention TCs once ... you did!

And The Cypriot did as well, and you voted for it.

Oracle...in Cyprus we have several ethnic groups such as Greek, Turkish, Armenian, Latin and Maronite plus several more recent arrivals who may also be Cypriot.

Perhaps The Cypriot can clarify what he means by the following:

Someone from Cyprus who isn't Turkish/'Muslim'

And since he also included "Muslim" as a descriptor, which you pointed out, it can only mean that the above selection includes ALL Turkish Cypriots as well (Cypriot can clarify this himself).

And since you voted as you did, you excluded ALL Turkish Cypriots. And once you identified this folly, you accused The Cypriot for "politically loading" this poll and quickly made reference to it so that you could wiggle your way out of this dilemma... ...Very clever of you...

Oracle wrote:

I knew exactly why I voted as I did and if you go back you will see my explanation before this debate!

It appears as though you had no idea what you were voting for or misunderstood the poll...

Nevertheless, I am satisfied that you have admitted that some Turks (TCs) are indeed Cypriot. We can't have people like Kikapu get the wrong idea...

Oracle wrote:

You're making irrelevant assumptions, again.

If someone is described as"Turkish" they are not necessarily also "TC" and vice versa.

I think The Cypriot has had you!

They were not described as Turkish. They were described as Turkish/Muslim, and this includes ALL TCs.

The Cypriot was not referring to the 300,000 Settlers, because then he would not have classified them as Turkish/Muslim.

Oracle wrote:

Oh but that's precisely how he DID classify them!

My mind immediately went to Cat Stevens who is GC but also Muslim ... which is why I objected to both Turkish and Muslim coming under the same vote!

Of course you had Cat Stevens in mind...it makes perfect sense now doesn't it?

Turkish Settlers and TCs not loyal to RoC can only be classified by the following:

Someone who says they're Cypriot but only to give Turkey influence on the island.

[The Cypriot]

Such a statement could signify exclusion of Human Rights considerations for the individual. I therefore, could not endorse it.

Not really, because once an individual – or a group of individuals – exclude "Human Rights Considerations", they themselves become illegitimate.

As I said, it is vague to the point of absurdity.

As is the whole of your poll!

It's not perfect but to describe the whole poll thus is itself absurd.

[Oracle]

Turkish Settlers and TCs not loyal to RoC can only be classified by the following:

Someone who says they're Cypriot but only to give Turkey influence on the island.

Paphitis ... I am rather busy, so it would help if you concentrate!

The Cypriot wrote this for his Poll:

What's your definition of a Cypriot?

And you are suggesting answering with this:

Someone who says they're Cypriot but only to give Turkey influence on the island

Now put it all together .... and what have you got?

Your definition of a Cypriot is someone who says they are a Cypriot but only to give Turkey influence on the island.

Is that it? Is that what a Cypriot is to you?

[The Cypriot]

I have heard that some TCs may actually be GC converts. Apparently they did this to avoid draconian land and property taxes against the GCs,

Without a doubt this happened. There is a term for such Cypriots: Linobambaji...

which does not say much about their allegiance to Cyprus if all they wee worried about was their wealth...Some things never change...

Although you could argue such enlightened Cypriots - less hampered by arcane religious convictions - simply did what they did, the better to endure.