Cyprus-Forum.com

[Dhavlos]

i think i can agree with turkcyp on all of the issues he seems to be presenting.

If there were more powers to the local levels, then the TCs 'need' for a seperate 'zone' would become irrelevent.

I think that many GCs would be able to accept that each community should have the power to vote on issues seperately...if they could have to right to return

Turkcyp....you speak much sense in my eyes.

[gabaston]

Othellos

Ok im of the generation that remembers the sixties. You say that my response was open ended – fair enough. But the sixties regime itself was sort of open ended too, its treatment of tcs was also open ended.

We lived in fear, and some of us died at the hands of Eoka, but there was an undeclared civil-war going on under the name of civil unrest. It wasn’t that some of us were killed so much, that irks us, (that can be forgotten) but more the complete lack of opportunity which we confronted wherever we turned. Makarios adopted a kind of ethnic cleansing, not by force but by politics, His policy imo was one of neglect. A sort of. get tc fed up and frustrated and they will leave. No bloodshed, so turkey can not justify intervention.

Let me give you an example

A tc man tried to start a fruit and vegetable export company. He bought the stuff, and a lorry, and met all the other expenses of starting such a business. He got the export licenses and all the legal documents. He brought his goods to Nicosia aiport for transit to London. Three days his vegetables stayed on the runway and rotted. He was told that greek cypriot goods had to be loaded on the plane first. By the time his cargo reached London you can guess what condition they were in.

So you ask me what equality is…………………………………….

Equality is simply understanding and implementing common sense.

[MicAtCyp]

Turkcyp,

Congratulations once again for your excellent posts in this thread. I think I agree with 99% of what you said. Well done.

For me personally the matter of Political equality translates to equal 50-50 in some areas and proportionate 18-82% in others. The 50-50 part must be carefully designed to exclude any possibility of it be used in abuse. An example of that abuse was mentioned by Piratis (i.e the case in which the TCs might demand half the budget or else...)

Other than that all I care is how any solution will affect directly my personal rights. I cannot compromise on my right on property ownership and I cannot transfer my ownership rights to the State.Because I know the State will donate my properties for free, and then tax myself to pay me some "gonnara" back. If necessary I can accept a non permanent restriction on my right to return or settle anywhere I like, as well as general regulations how I can exchange/rent/sell my properties so that I wont cause much upset to the people currently using my property.

"Dropping into the middle like a goat shit " is an expression in Turkish. Do not take an offense. It means entering into subject without knowing what is being said.

Ha,ha,ha. We say "pop in like a fart in the pants"

**************************

5000-10000 TCs work in the south everyday. Many TCs cross to the south daily. They know how it is there. They know how GC society is. We don't need our leaders to cry on TV for us to believe that bizonality is a necessity.

Do you mind clarifying how exactly the GC society is? Did you ever care to wonder what is our opinion of your society or you think it's only your workers who cross that know?

We want our own local zone (whatever you call) where we can feel safe and secure.
We need it not because we're brainwashed but because of our past experiences (however little you might think they are) along with the current mentality of GC society that we observe everyday.

Exactly! You want and you want and you want. What are you willing to give to get what you want? As far as I can see, not only you are willing to give nothing, you want more and more and more.

Like Christofias of Akel said after the Anan Plan was finalised at Burgenstock

The GCs are Cypriots too!

[gabaston]

Othellos....as a continuation of earlier post

Look at it from our point of view.

Pre turkish intervention, gc would not allow tc to export their produce. Gc could grow and export and earn foreign currency. Tc could cultivate their produce but could only sell within the tc community. So Gc was able to grow rich, whilst tc could just get poorer.
Following turkish intervention we thought we could export our good, but no. Our potatoes for example at the behest of gc had their attached soiled tested and it was proved that the soiled was found to be from northern cyprus i.e. stolen lands. So again we could not export. For almost 50 years we have been stopped legal exports by gc’s.

It seems to me that whatever happens or whatever policy or constitution or law is introduced, the first thing that gc does is look for a way to infer that gc is right and godly and just, and then look for a justifiable way of treating "thick" tc’s as underdogs, who should be grateful for any scraps that fall off gc’s table.

[magikthrill]

again if turkcyps views represetnted those of the average turkish cypriot (and maybe they do?) then a solution would not be too far.

however again the puppet master has a first say in what goes.

[turkcyp]

deleted by the author...

[MicAtCyp]

We lived in fear, and some of us died at the hands of Eoka, but there was an undeclared civil-war going on under the name of civil unrest. It wasn’t that some of us were killed so much, that irks us, (that can be forgotten) but more the complete lack of opportunity which we confronted wherever we turned. Makarios adopted a kind of ethnic cleansing, not by force but by politics, His policy imo was one of neglect. A sort of. get tc fed up and frustrated and they will leave. No bloodshed, so turkey can not justify intervention.

Among the thousands of posts I ve seen from TC friends this is the first post that describes accurately the truth. All we hear from tthe TCs is killings killings and killings.Yet those killings were a small part of the whole story and they were happening only sporadically.
I am one of those who respects the truth whatever that might be.

Let me however tell also the other side of the story.This economic war unfortunately was not started by the GCs.It started from the TCs through their policy from Turk to a Turk. In other words the TMT oblidged the TCs to do bussiness only between themselves. My father was a merchant and he was selling various produce and soyia oil in ballers on wholesale.When we were visiting TC clients they were not buying from us when other TCs were around.Many times they were doing alis-veris with my father behind closed doors because if a TC would see them he would go tell the Turkish officer of the village.So many of those clients prefered to visit our warehouses in Nicosia and buy personally to avoid be seen by their co villagers.

Let me give you an example

A tc man tried to start a fruit and vegetable export company. He bought the stuff, and a lorry, and met all the other expenses of starting such a business. He got the export licenses and all the legal documents. He brought his goods to Nicosia aiport for transit to London. Three days his vegetables stayed on the runway and rotted. He was told that greek cypriot goods had to be loaded on the plane first. By the time his cargo reached London you can guess what condition they were in.

I prefer to consider the above example as describing the atmosphere than be accurate in it's details. Gabaston could you please PM me the name of that exporter if possible?
The first exporters of agricultural products from Cyprus were my uncle in partnership with a TC!!!! They started the bussiness in 1966 and both became very rich I remember my uncle bought a yellow Mercedes and the TC partner a red one. The farmers and the industrial producers did not know how to export then. Besides it was so difficult because a)there were no telephones b)Telephone calls abroad costed a fortune. c)You had to travel abroad to find clients. Anyway I remember my uncle with that TC founded the first exporting company and they managed to have a telephone in 1967.I don't know who is the exporter you mention Gabaston, and at what year that happenned but I tell you up until 1974 the exporters from Cyprus was a one number figure.Besides exports by Air cargo were always very dangerous for everyone, because of the very few planes, the lack of coordination via telephones etc, even my uncle suffered loss from such Air cargo bussiness many times. I guess if that TC exporter that you talk about started bussiness doing Air cargo exports he would be a very risky guy.No, most of the exports were done by seaport, and the majority of fresh produce were canned and then exported.I remember one summer I worked at the premises of my uncle and we were canning okra, beans,broad beans, peaches in surup etc. They were actually exporting everything, from clothing to even old neewspapers for recycling.
Just before 1974 by uncle together with his TC partner have finished a huge modern factory in Mia Milia Industrial area (just outside Nicosia on the road to Famagusta) were they were to export halloumi (hellim). This factory is now in the occupied areas.
They just had one big export from that factory and they arranged the money to go into a personal Bank account in Syria on the name of the TC partner.(to avoid local taxation) After 1974 the TC partner went to Turkey and my incle went to Greece so they lost each other.The mainland Greeks and Turks were then even more backwards and blind than the Cypriots regarding international trade and exports!!!
Would you beleive that after the opening of the gates the TC partner came looking for my uncle and he gave him his share of that money? Unbeleivable yet true.He proposed him also to start the bussiness again.... Unfortunately today all cypriot producers and industrialists got "educated" and they do their exports directly themselves. There is no room today for an exporting company in Cyprus unless you procude the goods yourself....

[magikthrill]

turkcyp are you trying to tell me that a plan would be proposed that would benefit TCs and not TUrkey (for example one that would satisfy the TC needs you posed earlier)?

If you think this is the case then you are the one undermining your intelligence. The puppet master anaology is not about being stupid or undermining inteligence its about not having full control of your future (someone else has that).

[metecyp]

The mainland Greeks and Turks were then even more backwards and blind than the Cypriots regarding international trade and exports!!!
Would you beleive that after the opening of the gates the TC partner came looking for my uncle and he gave him his share of that money? Unbeleivable yet true.

Stories like these that keep me hopeful for a united Cyprus...

[gabaston]

MaC

After all the insults we have traded it is good that we can agree on something. May I also confirm that there was no genocide of tcs 63-74. Had power fallen to Grivas or other right wingers, it may have been different. Under Makarios there was no genocide. Imo there was attempted ethnic cleansing by non-physical means.


Anyway I can not give you that chaps name, as I cant remember it. I knew him for about six months. My farther had a cypriot grocer shop in north London. The type of vegetables we are talking about were the usual cypriot type: maydanoz, kolliandro, lahana, bamyez, aubergine, peppers etc. It was early 70’s, maybe 71-72.

The main exporters at that time, as I remember were Katsouris Bros. I also remember another - Milia. There were a few others too. My farther bought his cyprus veg from these two companies. His shop was in north London, his customers were a fair mix of gc and tc.