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A question for Turkish Cypriots

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby metecyp » Wed Jul 06, 2005 1:03 am

magikthrill wrote:Why is it not that simple though? because most TCs have been poisoned to believe that it is impossible to have a settlement without bizonality and most GCs dont believe in a solution without the return of all refugees.

Typical response: "TCs are poisoned, TCs are brainwashed"...but when it comes to GC demands: "GCs don't believe in this, GCs don't believe in that"

Why do you (along with MicAtCyp, mikkie2, Piratis) always think that TCs are brainwashed or poisoned? 5000-10000 TCs work in the south everyday. Many TCs cross to the south daily. They know how it is there. They know how GC society is. We don't need our leaders to cry on TV for us to believe that bizonality is a necessity.

Ask any TC, even the most progressive ones, you'll see that we don't want to a mere minority in GC society. We want our own local zone (whatever you call) where we can feel safe and secure. We need it not because we're brainwashed but because of our past experiences (however little you might think they are) along with the current mentality of GC society that we observe everyday.

You don't agree with us? Fine. But don't call us we're brainwashed. It's a choice we made, bizonality, and your side agreed with it in 1976. If your side changed its mind, once again, that's fine, tell us so we can reconsider things but don't tell us we're brainwashed because we demand something that you don't like.
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Postby pantelis » Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:42 am

I think what detailer means is that gc does not look for a way of dominating tc ever again, not physically, politically, economically, or any other *lly, which may present itself.


Which of the above "services" are not "enjoyed" by the TCs, due to the Turkish occupation?
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Postby Bananiot » Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:45 am

Magikthrill writes:

Before you go on and continue with your crock of shit about powerful GCs not accepting such a solution think of the last time a TC official proposed a bicommunal republic without any other additions to that such as bizonality that limits ther right of return of refugees AND (not and/or but AND) the remaining of turkish troops on the island.


Will you, magikthrill, tells us when was the last time a GC leader (not the marginal ones) advocated publically to reject the bizonality factor from the equation? How cretin of you to accuse the TC officials for insisting on this parameter when a whole host of GC officials (Papadopoulos, Christofias etc) call for exactly the same thing.
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Postby insan » Wed Jul 06, 2005 9:21 am

pantelis wrote:
I think what detailer means is that gc does not look for a way of dominating tc ever again, not physically, politically, economically, or any other *lly, which may present itself.


Which of the above "services" are not "enjoyed" by the TCs, due to the Turkish occupation?


How r u re Pantelis? Do you mean it is better to be dominated by Hellenes than Turkey? :lol: :lol: :lol:

You guys are funny! Keep believe in myths and do everything you can to not to see the realities of the capitalist world that "big boys" rule. :wink: "Big boys" of TCs prefer to make "business" with "big boys" of Turks instead of Hellenistic masters.
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Postby Piratis » Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:35 am

And this does not mean that we can not have a system where every vote had the same weight and satisfy (a). Meaning there does not need to be 50-50 equality at the parliament or senate or whatever it is. You can still have a parliament of 4-1 (or whatever the population ratio is) and still achieve (b) where majority of each community accepts the decision.


Nice trick, but can only work with elementary school kids.

Whats the point of 4-1 if that 1 has the same power as the 4? It could be 1 million to 1 and it still wouldn't matter. there is no equality of people with what you are asking. What you are asking is for each TC to have 4.5 times more voting power than each GC.
Separate majorities can only be accepted for predefined matters that will be part of the agreement.

Political equality of the two communities is a red line for TC's and it is quite obvious that they will accept nothing else.


If you put it that way, it is red line for us also.

I believe it is a small price to pay for the GC's in order to arrive at a lasting solution.


This depends on how much you value democracy. For you a small price, for me a huge one way beyond our red line.

However, there are powerful elements in the GC community who will never agree for political equality of the two communities, which in essence means the sharing of power.


Sharing power is not a problem. The 18% of people will have the 18% share of power.

What do we stand to lose if we were to agree to political equality of the two communities and not merely on a personal level, as turkcyp quite rightly differentiated?


We loose democracy. We create a "super class" of people that have a lot more power than they deserve. If they have 50% power, whats going to stop them from getting 50% of everything?
As we see their greediness has no limits. If they demand 50% of the budget tomorrow what are we going to do? If we don't agree to their demands then what? The "united" Cyprus will collapse, and hey, partition, not a problem for them.
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Postby magikthrill » Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:51 pm

metecyp wrote:
magikthrill wrote:Why is it not that simple though? because most TCs have been poisoned to believe that it is impossible to have a settlement without bizonality and most GCs dont believe in a solution without the return of all refugees.

Typical response: "TCs are poisoned, TCs are brainwashed"...but when it comes to GC demands: "GCs don't believe in this, GCs don't believe in that"


metecyp i dont care for you to read what i write. however, if you insist on responding to me then i request you do so.

many GCs are poisoned not to accept a solution without the return of refugees but i still believe they are easier to convince then the hardcore bizonal supporters.

also dont forget that demanding TCs not be a minority in a GC state is hypocritical bollocks when a TC supports a TC majority state in a country that does not belong only to TCs.
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Postby pantelis » Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:20 pm

How r u re Pantelis? Do you mean it is better to be dominated by Hellenes than Turkey?

You guys are funny! Keep believe in myths and do everything you can to not to see the realities of the capitalist world that "big boys" rule. "Big boys" of TCs prefer to make "business" with "big boys" of Turks instead of Hellenistic masters.


Insan,
Why don't you, for once, answer my question without avoiding the point and turning it into a "hate war"?

I am fine, and you?
Are you back in Cyprus? Are we finally going to meet this summer?
Tell me where and when, over the next theree-four weeks.
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Postby metecyp » Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:53 pm

magikthrill wrote:many GCs are poisoned not to accept a solution without the return of refugees but i still believe they are easier to convince then the hardcore bizonal supporters.

How do you reach to this conclusion? You talked to many GC refugees and many "hardcore" TC bizonality supporters and then made your conclusion? Or are you simply pulling this from somewhere?
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Postby magikthrill » Wed Jul 06, 2005 5:28 pm

i make my opinions from observations on this forum which i believe is a decent represesntatino of average cypriots.
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Postby Othellos » Wed Jul 06, 2005 6:21 pm

I think we should try to decentralize the decisions as low as we can, even way below state and/or community level to level of municipality or other local levels so that most of the day to day decisions regarding someone life is taken at that level. Sure there are some efficiency losses with that system. But we should tolerate this efficiency loss in the time being until we become Cypriot first then Turk and Greek.


Thanks for your comments, Turkcyp. I agree with you that decentralizing down to the level of municipalities does make a lot of sense for the same reason that u also point out: at the community / municipal level, people tend to think more independently and de-attach themselves from their "traditional" political and possibly (?) ethnic biases. No reasonable person should have a problem electing a mayor or a councilor form another ethnic background if this person was suitable for the job.

There can be found numerous example of decentralization in every country mostly from USA. Decentralization is good because it brings politics to a more local level, eliminate so called political elites, provide more scrutiny over finances and fraud.


I tend to agree in principal with this even though the "scrutiny over finances and fraud" part still sounds too idealistic to be true in the real world.

We do not need a big government. Nothing good comes out of big governments. We do not need a senate and separate house of rep. One is enough. (If you ask me even that is unnecessary.)

Like it or not, a government will always be necessary if a place (in this case Cyprus) is to function as an independent state in the international community.

Ask any TC, even the most progressive ones, you'll see that we don't want to a mere minority in GC society. We want our own local zone (whatever you call) where we can feel safe and secure. We need it not because we're brainwashed but because of our past experiences (however little you might think they are) along with the current mentality of GC society that we observe everyday.


The way I understand it is that bizonality as metecyp describes it is in conflict with the equality concept that turkcyp has presented earlier.

In the event of a solution, GC individuals are to be denied the right to return to their ancestral lands, not because of their involvement in any past inter-communal violence but only because they are Greek. Not only I believe that this approach conflicts with the whole equality idea as this was described earlier by turkcyp, but it is also near racist.

Past experiences you say, metecyp? Why don’t these experiences as well as current GC mentality have an effect when thousands of TCs cross in the free areas to work every day, to visit the hospitals etc? Trying to solve the problem by dwelling on the 1960’s or on 1974 will probably take things nowhere better. Trying to solve the problem while dwelling on the past selectively will definitely take us backwards.

This brings me to another question: what is the priority of the TCs when it comes to a solution?

1) A local zone where they will feel safe and secure while the human or civil rights (and equality) of other Cypriot citizens may be compromised depending upon their ethnic background? Or

2) Equality on the personal as well as on the communal level in the way turkcyp has described it earlier?

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