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Are Greek Cypriots white?

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby YFred » Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:33 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:There was a chap called Necmi Potamyalızâde who used to write articles in English in various publications in the early 1900's. This name puzzles me. Potamyalızâde sounds like a surname - perhaps his family was from Potamya, a stone's throw away from Louroujina. Yet Muslims in Cyprus did not use surnames at the time. Could this have been some kind of nickname?

This may explain it.
Botamya was a watery place, and hence the Pashas from Otoman Empire would always prefer to settle in places like there. The TC population of Botamya also spoke very little Greek, perfect Turkish and yet they were minority in their village. The existence of a Pasha forced that issue. It may well be that he was a true descendent of the Pasha in Botamya. There was definitely one Pasha in Bodamya prior to British taking it over (My father told me). The reason why I asked was because the refugees from Botamya could speak such perfect turkish.
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Postby insan » Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:43 pm

YFred wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:There was a chap called Necmi Potamyalızâde who used to write articles in English in various publications in the early 1900's. This name puzzles me. Potamyalızâde sounds like a surname - perhaps his family was from Potamya, a stone's throw away from Louroujina. Yet Muslims in Cyprus did not use surnames at the time. Could this have been some kind of nickname?

This may explain it.
Botamya was a watery place, and hence the Pashas from Otoman Empire would always prefer to settle in places like there. The TC population of Botamya also spoke very little Greek, perfect Turkish and yet they were minority in their village. The existence of a Pasha forced that issue. It may well be that he was a true descendent of the Pasha in Botamya. There was definitely one Pasha in Bodamya prior to British taking it over (My father told me). The reason why I asked was because the refugees from Botamya could speak such perfect turkish.


The real name of Necmi Bodamyalızade is Mahmut Necmi Aziz. For a purpose he used the name Necmi Bodamyalızade for his writings.
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Postby YFred » Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:46 pm

insan wrote:
YFred wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:There was a chap called Necmi Potamyalızâde who used to write articles in English in various publications in the early 1900's. This name puzzles me. Potamyalızâde sounds like a surname - perhaps his family was from Potamya, a stone's throw away from Louroujina. Yet Muslims in Cyprus did not use surnames at the time. Could this have been some kind of nickname?

This may explain it.
Botamya was a watery place, and hence the Pashas from Otoman Empire would always prefer to settle in places like there. The TC population of Botamya also spoke very little Greek, perfect Turkish and yet they were minority in their village. The existence of a Pasha forced that issue. It may well be that he was a true descendent of the Pasha in Botamya. There was definitely one Pasha in Bodamya prior to British taking it over (My father told me). The reason why I asked was because the refugees from Botamya could speak such perfect turkish.


The real name of Necmi Bodamyalızade is Mahmut Necmi Aziz. For a purpose he used the name Necmi Bodamyalızade for his writings.

He may have been inspired to use the name Bodamyalizade by the existance of the Pasha in Bodamya. Do you know if he was from Bodamya?
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Postby insan » Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:53 pm

YFred wrote:
insan wrote:
YFred wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:There was a chap called Necmi Potamyalızâde who used to write articles in English in various publications in the early 1900's. This name puzzles me. Potamyalızâde sounds like a surname - perhaps his family was from Potamya, a stone's throw away from Louroujina. Yet Muslims in Cyprus did not use surnames at the time. Could this have been some kind of nickname?

This may explain it.
Botamya was a watery place, and hence the Pashas from Otoman Empire would always prefer to settle in places like there. The TC population of Botamya also spoke very little Greek, perfect Turkish and yet they were minority in their village. The existence of a Pasha forced that issue. It may well be that he was a true descendent of the Pasha in Botamya. There was definitely one Pasha in Bodamya prior to British taking it over (My father told me). The reason why I asked was because the refugees from Botamya could speak such perfect turkish.


The real name of Necmi Bodamyalızade is Mahmut Necmi Aziz. For a purpose he used the name Necmi Bodamyalızade for his writings.

He may have been inspired to use the name Bodamyalizade by the existance of the Pasha in Bodamya. Do you know if he was from Bodamya?


I don't know... one of his other well known nick among TC people was "feylesof".
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Postby Oracle » Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:12 pm

YFred wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:
zmx wrote:
Oracle wrote:The only reason they would have had for converting to Islam would have been to avoid the heavy taxes. It would have been self-defeating if they gave themselves away by having Christian names.


I understand why they would change their first/Christian names, but I dont see why there would have a neccesity to change their Venetian surnames/family names as long as those family names had no religious affiliation.

and in the case of Venetians avoision of heavy taxation wasnt why they converted, they converted to Islam/Orthodoxism of anti-Catholicism within the Ottoman empire

Oracle wrote:Anyway, apostasy from Islam to Christianity incurred the death penalty.


only until 1857 when the Ottomans pushed through reforms on religious freedom (Hatti-Humayun)


Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that TCs have only recently started using surnames. Until recently TCs were indentified by their own forename followed by their father's name. If a man named Fikret had a son called Mehmet, he would be know as 'Mehmet Fikret'. If the latter had a daughter called Lale, she would be know as 'Lale Mehmet'. So even if Venetians had surnames or family names, there was no tradition that would have preserved these.

Yes but if a man was called Mehmet Ismail for instance he would also unofficially be refered to as Mehmed Ismailo, or Kashano or Halilazzo or quite a few other o's.


The "-o" ending was not so common in 16th century Venetian names ... more likely endings were "-in" such as Bragadin or Augustin ... Also, most of them tended to have Saints names.
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Postby denizaksulu » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:44 pm

Oracle wrote:
YFred wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:
zmx wrote:
Oracle wrote:The only reason they would have had for converting to Islam would have been to avoid the heavy taxes. It would have been self-defeating if they gave themselves away by having Christian names.


I understand why they would change their first/Christian names, but I dont see why there would have a neccesity to change their Venetian surnames/family names as long as those family names had no religious affiliation.

and in the case of Venetians avoision of heavy taxation wasnt why they converted, they converted to Islam/Orthodoxism of anti-Catholicism within the Ottoman empire

Oracle wrote:Anyway, apostasy from Islam to Christianity incurred the death penalty.


only until 1857 when the Ottomans pushed through reforms on religious freedom (Hatti-Humayun)


Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that TCs have only recently started using surnames. Until recently TCs were indentified by their own forename followed by their father's name. If a man named Fikret had a son called Mehmet, he would be know as 'Mehmet Fikret'. If the latter had a daughter called Lale, she would be know as 'Lale Mehmet'. So even if Venetians had surnames or family names, there was no tradition that would have preserved these.

Yes but if a man was called Mehmet Ismail for instance he would also unofficially be refered to as Mehmed Ismailo, or Kashano or Halilazzo or quite a few other o's.


The "-o" ending was not so common in 16th century Venetian names ... more likely endings were "-in" such as Bragadin or Augustin ... Also, most of them tended to have Saints names.



How come I know Bragadin as Bragadino or Laurenzo (der. Lourudjina).
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Postby halil » Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:24 pm

WOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWW

What do u say about this article by Alkan CAGLAR

Are Turkish Cypriots the lost sons of Venice?

The question is not meant to be provocative; rather it is simply an invitation for debate following what appears to be a general denouement of this very matter. While some circles of Turkish Cypriots have already an accepted this theory, others have resisted with zeal. Admittedly, those affected in this debate are not the entire Turkish Cypriot community by all accounts but rather those originating for generations from such villages as Louroujina, Potamia, Monarga and the Tylliria region.

Traditionally bilingual, these Turkish Cypriots as well as being able to converse fluently in Cypriot Greek (Kypriakos Dialectos or the phonetically correct Gibreiga) frequently had Italian surnames or at least used to. This fascinating group, the descendants of the Linobambaki or Crypto Christians to give it its less derogatory term are clearly the creation (not anomaly) of living on the front line of two great abrahamic religions.

Sadly as a result of the lingering Cyprus question, which has forced minority communities to make choices, whether they want to be ‘Greek or Turkish,’ the former

So who were the Crypto- Christians? According to M de Cesnola who visited the island under Ottoman rule, many Linobambaki were originally Roman Catholics who converted to Islam and not Greek Orthodox as thought. Another Latin Jerome Dandini makes a similar claim after visiting the island on the way to Terra Santa in the 17th century. Are these Roman Catholics telling the truth? Or is there some Catholic bias here? Whatever the case, such news often delights some Turkish Cypriots keen on romanticizing their heritage, particularly a time when Cypriots all look to Europe for their inspiration.

Time and time again, I heard people from Louroujina (Laurentia), Monarga (Monagria), Potamia and even Ayios Sozomenos near the tomb of Queen Catherine Cornaro talk casually about a lost Venetian or Frankish heritage, while attributing everything from their facial features to their business acumen to their ancestors. An idea that emanated from one anonymous Louroujina man who on account of his fair hair and blue eyes claimed to be of Latin decent; He claimed that was about to take the current Italian Republic to court for abandoning him in the 16th century. I think he was pulling my leg!

Perhaps this is wishful thinking by a group of vainglorious Cypriots trying to resurrect a false past or perhaps is there some truth in this?

According to oral history passed down for generations, the name Louroujina, Louroudjina or the Turkish spelling ‘Luricina’ (today known as Akincilar) was named after an Italian maiden called Lorenza or Laurentia who fell over and died on its very spot. Laurentia supported a mostly Latin populace before the Ottoman conquest with numerous estates belonging to Italian and French families. Were these estate holders murdered after the 1572 Ottoman conquest or did they convert to Islam to save their lives?

In our secular world, we would argue that they proselytised to Islam, but perhaps religion was so important to them that facing the sword as Brigadino himself did was natural. If we accept this argument, one is still compelled to ask, if Louroujina became Muslim after 1572, then how comes the inhabitant spoke Greek for so long?

For those who believe Louroujina is insignificant in the Turkish Cypriot community, they would be surprised to learn that Louroujina was one of the largest and most important Turkish Cypriot villages of the island with over one thousand five hundred souls during the time of the 1960 population census. Nestled beside a hill, the village with its yellow stone houses amid empty plots of land with farm equipment and rusty steel windmill looks like any average Cypriot village that has suffered from the war, but many of the most influential and most successful Turkish Cypriots come from there. There are over 7,000 Louroujina folk among the British diaspora alone.

But Louroujina’s history is an unusual one, where religious rivalry resulted in the beheading of the local priest by the imam followed by mass conversion of an entire populace within a few generations to Dar al-Islam. Another Louroujina resident Ali, who speaks excellent Cypriot Greek, informed me that his grand parents spoke Greek to him, his parents were bilingual. Turkish he claims was taught in the 1940s when teachers were shipped from Turkey to serve in the village.

However, Cyprus is a complicated place, knowledge of the Cypriot Greek vernacular does not necessary mean they were originally Greek Orthodox Christians. Latin and Maronite Catholics long spoke Greek in the Near East, even before the Ottomans arrived. Even in neighbouring Lebanon, Greek was the liturgical language of the Maronite Church. In multi-cultural Cyprus, where nothing is as it seems, there is often a paradigm way of thinking, where if one speaks Greek then that means they are Greek. If they were Greek Orthodox previously, then why were the neighbouring villages of Athienou, Pyroi and Lymbia not also converted to Islam? Could it be it was because Louroujina was Catholic?

Furthermore as I mentioned above Cypriot Greek much like the Cypriot Turkish dialect has borrowed many loan words from Italian, enough to perplex an Athenian or Istanbulite. Although there seems to be some ignorance of this, as people would only rightfully recognise that the words are Italian if they knew Italian. Terms like “Fundana” come from the Italian Fontana (Fountain), while “Borta” stems from Porta (Door) and “Estrada” whose roots derive from the Italian word for Street – Strada. Even in the 1518, there seemed to be bilingualism on the island, silk merchant Jacques Le Saige who visited Cyprus noted that even in church at one end the pilgrims chanted in Latin but in the middle they chanted the choir in Greek.

Nineteenth century British visitor to Cyprus RLN Michel who wrote “The Muslim-Christian Sect in Cyprus” in 1908 reported that while most Catholics were “wiped out, small remnants of the community adopted Islam, faced slavery or death.” Citing the village of Monarga as Linobambaki, he estimated that rather than face death, “relatively larger numbers avoided persecution by the adoption of Islam.”

But not everybody is enthusiastic about the theory, one elderly gentleman called Yusuf who once worked in the British Civil service and who spoke impeccable English did not seem too hot on the idea of the phenomena of Crypto-Christians. In fact when I took out a paper on Louroujina, where he was from, after having perused its content, said “Ne mutlu Türküm Diyene” (Fortunate am I to call myself a Turk) the man threw the paper down before looking haughtily into a different direction. I had clearly offended him.

Such die-hard attitudes are widespread in Cyprus where Greekicisation and Turkicisation has narrowed the minds of Cypriots leading to selective national history. Rather than accept and embrace our very diverse heritage, we instil a false history, one claiming to be from the most Turkish part of Turkey and the other from fruits of the Ancient Greek loins with no room for anything else. Whatever your ancestry, it is your ancestry, you have no control over it in the same way that one has no control over one’s birth, however what it shows is just how diverse each Cypriot community is. For those still sceptical of this diversity, Cyprus is far too rich and complex to be solely a Greco-Turkish affair, perhaps the answer to my previous question is, we may well be the lost sons or daughters of Venice, but don’t all rush to apply for your Italian passports!
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Postby Nikitas » Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:41 pm

The subject of Venetian influence is further complicated by the refuge Venice offered to Greek intellectuals and businessmen during the Turkish occupation of Greece and Cyprus.

Venice was the center of Greek learning during this time with almost all Greek manuscripts being printed there. The central canal of Venice is still called the canal of the Greeks and one of the biggest churches in this catholic city is the Greek Orthodox church of Agios Demetrios. Today there is an active community of Venetians who trace their origins to Greek settlers from the Rennaissance. So maybe the connection to Cyprus is more than just Venetians staying behind, it is also one of Cypriots moving to Venice.

A personal observation I have is that of all foreigners, the ones that learn the best Greek are the Italians. It is strange because ther pronunciation is not that close, Spanish is closer, but it is something I have observed repeatedly.
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Postby insan » Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:45 pm

Let alone the inhabitants of Cyprus, no matter how long ago their ancestors came and settled down to Cyprus; even it is not clear whether they were pure Turks, Greeks, Armenians, Latins, Maronites etc... However, the fact is the inhabitants of Cyprus grouped or had themselves grouped under 2 large communities. Muslims/Christians and later Turks/Greeks...

The so-called Cypriot nationalism that i guess was initiated in early 80s was not an organised nationalist movement having strong arguements against Turkis and Greek nationalist movements. It was an multi-purposed attempt, suuposedly would unite all Cypriots. Too late...
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Postby Oracle » Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:55 pm

denizaksulu wrote:
Oracle wrote:
YFred wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:
zmx wrote:
Oracle wrote:The only reason they would have had for converting to Islam would have been to avoid the heavy taxes. It would have been self-defeating if they gave themselves away by having Christian names.


I understand why they would change their first/Christian names, but I dont see why there would have a neccesity to change their Venetian surnames/family names as long as those family names had no religious affiliation.

and in the case of Venetians avoision of heavy taxation wasnt why they converted, they converted to Islam/Orthodoxism of anti-Catholicism within the Ottoman empire

Oracle wrote:Anyway, apostasy from Islam to Christianity incurred the death penalty.


only until 1857 when the Ottomans pushed through reforms on religious freedom (Hatti-Humayun)


Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that TCs have only recently started using surnames. Until recently TCs were indentified by their own forename followed by their father's name. If a man named Fikret had a son called Mehmet, he would be know as 'Mehmet Fikret'. If the latter had a daughter called Lale, she would be know as 'Lale Mehmet'. So even if Venetians had surnames or family names, there was no tradition that would have preserved these.

Yes but if a man was called Mehmet Ismail for instance he would also unofficially be refered to as Mehmed Ismailo, or Kashano or Halilazzo or quite a few other o's.


The "-o" ending was not so common in 16th century Venetian names ... more likely endings were "-in" such as Bragadin or Augustin ... Also, most of them tended to have Saints names.



How come I know Bragadin as Bragadino or Laurenzo (der. Lourudjina).


The "o" ending is probably from his last breath as you flayed him alive ...

Otto-Turk (slave-trader): What is your name?

Bragadin: Bragadin ... ooooooooo!

Ottoman oppression
1571 The Ottomans massacre the population of Famagousta and flay the Venitian captain Bragadin alive after breaking their word of honour. The Cypriot Christian population is subjected to slavery. Since Christians are forbidden from even stepping onto the socio-political ladder Cypriot society becomes a virtua l theocracy.
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