Cyprus-Forum.com

[Get Real!]

What’s all this shit about Lourougina all the time, for Christ’s sake?

Lourougina WAS a hole… a shit hole!

A bunch of gypsies lived there that few people even knew existed! Nothing ever happened in Lourougina worth mentioning, so stop going on about Cyprus’ least significant shit hole like it’s the epicenter of the Cyprus problem!

[Get Real!]

I once recall a granny wanting to be dropped off in Lourougina from Tymbou to buy a cauldron from the “gypsy people”!

[Tim Drayton]

[..]
The job of TMT was to protect the enclaves. Nobody was forced to stay there.
[...]

In a spirit of inquiry in order to establish the objective facts, could you comment with reference to the above as one who was there on the following event from Louroujina described by Martin Packard in Getting It Wrong, pp 318-319:

The second case was that of an unhappy and impoverished Turkish Cypriot in Louroujina who had agreed with his wife that he would try to escape to a Greek Cypriot area and that she and their two children would try to join him if he managed to do so. Having let it be known that he was going out to gather wood, he made off to Dhali, where he told the Greek Cypriots of how difficult life had been in Louroujina and of how the people there were suffering "under a TMT dictatorship."

The man's wife failed to get away and eventually I was asked by the Greek Cypriots to try and arrange for her to join her husband. I went and discussed the position with Erol Huseyin and other TMT leaders in Louroujina. When she was called into the meeting, the woman said that her husband had deserted her and that she had no wish to go. Later, however, when I talked to her in private, she told me that she was desperate to rejoin her husband but that she was very frightened. She believed that she would be badly beaten if her real feelings became known in the village. I therefore let it be known that she had not yet made up her mind.

A week later, when I judged that feelings would have simmered down, I returned to Louroujina and pursuaded the TMT leaders that it was a poor advertisement for their cause if they could only hang onto their people by force or threat. They then agreed that she could go if she declared to them that she wished to do so. With great trepidation she joined me and told the meeting that she had no complaints against Louroujina, but that she and her children did want to be back with her husband.

At this point, the woman's parents appeared and announced that under no circumstances would they let her go. They were illiterate and very rough and neither my arguments or those of Mr Nihat seemed to move them at all. Eventually the TMT leaders called a halt, saying that they would not force the woman to go against the wish of her parents.

Rather apologetically, they afterwards advanced to me the argument that, however hard it might seem, this was a struggle that could only be won through the unity of the people. The will of the majority was to resist, and it was the task of the leadership to reinforce that resistance.

Thanks for that Tim. Several points. TMT was not a committee. It was run by one-man single handed as it were, literally and his name was not Erol Huseyin.

I do not recall such an incident, as I was 6 years old. But anybody who lived in Lurucina would immediately find quite a few holes in this story.

Lurucina is surrounded with high hills. All the defence positions are on these hills. The productive land inside the village is approx
1 % the rest of the productive Lurucadi land is outside. Dali is walking distance away from Lurucina. There is nothing on earth that would have stopped this woman going to Dali if she wanted to do so, just like her husband. We ventured outside of the protection zone every day to tend to our fields even in the darkest political days.

Was her or her husbands name mentioned?

Thanks. No names were mentioned.

We learn from page 152 of Packard's book that Erol Huseyin was a young schoolteacher in Louroujina who acted as a spokesman for the TMT leadership and with whom Packard laised.

[YFred]

[..]
The job of TMT was to protect the enclaves. Nobody was forced to stay there.
[...]

In a spirit of inquiry in order to establish the objective facts, could you comment with reference to the above as one who was there on the following event from Louroujina described by Martin Packard in Getting It Wrong, pp 318-319:

The second case was that of an unhappy and impoverished Turkish Cypriot in Louroujina who had agreed with his wife that he would try to escape to a Greek Cypriot area and that she and their two children would try to join him if he managed to do so. Having let it be known that he was going out to gather wood, he made off to Dhali, where he told the Greek Cypriots of how difficult life had been in Louroujina and of how the people there were suffering "under a TMT dictatorship."

The man's wife failed to get away and eventually I was asked by the Greek Cypriots to try and arrange for her to join her husband. I went and discussed the position with Erol Huseyin and other TMT leaders in Louroujina. When she was called into the meeting, the woman said that her husband had deserted her and that she had no wish to go. Later, however, when I talked to her in private, she told me that she was desperate to rejoin her husband but that she was very frightened. She believed that she would be badly beaten if her real feelings became known in the village. I therefore let it be known that she had not yet made up her mind.

A week later, when I judged that feelings would have simmered down, I returned to Louroujina and pursuaded the TMT leaders that it was a poor advertisement for their cause if they could only hang onto their people by force or threat. They then agreed that she could go if she declared to them that she wished to do so. With great trepidation she joined me and told the meeting that she had no complaints against Louroujina, but that she and her children did want to be back with her husband.

At this point, the woman's parents appeared and announced that under no circumstances would they let her go. They were illiterate and very rough and neither my arguments or those of Mr Nihat seemed to move them at all. Eventually the TMT leaders called a halt, saying that they would not force the woman to go against the wish of her parents.

Rather apologetically, they afterwards advanced to me the argument that, however hard it might seem, this was a struggle that could only be won through the unity of the people. The will of the majority was to resist, and it was the task of the leadership to reinforce that resistance.

Thanks for that Tim. Several points. TMT was not a committee. It was run by one-man single handed as it were, literally and his name was not Erol Huseyin.

I do not recall such an incident, as I was 6 years old. But anybody who lived in Lurucina would immediately find quite a few holes in this story.

Lurucina is surrounded with high hills. All the defence positions are on these hills. The productive land inside the village is approx
1 % the rest of the productive Lurucadi land is outside. Dali is walking distance away from Lurucina. There is nothing on earth that would have stopped this woman going to Dali if she wanted to do so, just like her husband. We ventured outside of the protection zone every day to tend to our fields even in the darkest political days.

Was her or her husbands name mentioned?

Thanks. No names were mentioned.

We learn from page 152 of Packard's book that Erol Huseyin was a young schoolteacher in Louroujina who acted as a spokesman for the TMT leadership and with whom Packard laised.

Now that makes sense. He was the english teacher for the Secondary school and probaply the only competent english translator in the village. To describe him as a spokesman though may be doing him injustice.

[YFred]

I once recall a granny wanting to be dropped off in Lourougina from Tymbou to buy a cauldron from the “gypsy people”!

Reh vromo shilla, nabais sto rizokarpazo sto singenissu re gharo.

[insan]

I am re-reading Packard now. It is a fascinating book in the form of a place by place account on how Packard and his joint patrol, consisting of an ELDYK officer and an officer from the Turkish contingent, went around the island calming down local conflicts.

As for YFred's assertions above re self placed bombs to cause an effect I have to say this- we are all entitled to our opinions, but at some point actual experience must override opinion. In 1958 we lived in central Nicosia, near the Lokmaci checkpoint. We were placed under curfew every day, from 7 pm till 7am.

In the summer of 1958, while under curfew we got attacked by a TC mob which obviously was not under curfew. Any GC caught walking even across the street could be shot by the British, but here were dozens of TCs armed with stick, knives, and a couple with guns coming, unprovoked, to our area. After the first attack we got "security" in the form of two TC auxiliaries armed with single shot shotguns. The attacks continued to the point that the neighborhood asked a "connected" neighbor to ask EOKA for protection. It was in the form of instructions to set up a civil guard armed with whistles and to stockpile rocks on the terraces.

EOKA was never organised to fight in urban riots. TMT was, and it could do so with the full accceptance of the British and it did just that. These are the facts as I experienced them in Nicosia in 1958. TMT was not a defence force at that time but very much an offensive one.

Nikitas,

Maybe there wasn't any direct provocations against TCs in your area but the armed struggle of EOKA for Enosis had already been a provocative movement from 1955 until 1958. It was a well known fact that TCs were against Enosis and would take side by Brits to fight prevent Enosis.

The Turkish resistance to EOKA is mentioned in depth in A History of Cyprus, by Dr. Stavros Pantelli, East-West Publications, UK, 2000. Pantelli points out that soon after the EOKA campaign began, a counter Turkish underground organization was established. It was called Kara Yilan (Black Snake). It was the predecessor of Volkan (The Volcano).

French-speaking Dr Fazil Kutchuk and British trained barrister Rauf Denktash represented Turkish nationalism. Turkish Cypriots joined Dr Kutchuk's Turkish Cypriot Popular Party. The party later became the “Cyprus is Turkish Party” under Hikmet Bil, who arrived in the Island in 1955 from Turkey for this purpose. Kutchuk then became chairman of the “Cyprus is Turkish Party,” which propagated the theory that self-determination for Cyprus would result in the annihilation of all Turks, civil war and ultimately total unrest in the middle east.

As EOKA hit harder at British military personnel and installations, more British jobs were taken away from Greek Cypriots and given to Turks. Separate police units were formed, manned mainly by Turks under British officers, whose task it was to control Greek disturbances and help the army fight EOKA.

On 11 January 1956 Abdullah Ali Riza, a Turkish police sergeant who had given evidence at the trial of EOKA members, was shot dead. This precipitated Turkish Cypriot attacks against Greek stores in Nicosia. The Turkish underground organization Volkan issued leaflets on that occasion threatening reprisals - five Greek lives for every Turk killed.

Kutchuk protested to Governor Harding and in a message to Makarios demanded that the Greek community condemn the murder. At Vassilia village, fighting broke out between Greeks and Turks on 19 March 1956 and about 20 people were hurt. On the following day, 500 Turks smashed the windows of Greek-owned shops and offices in the Turkish quarter of Nicosia. On 23 April fighting again broke out after another Turkish police officer was shot dead. On 25 May, crowds of Turkish Cypriots attacked Greek stores and premises in Nicosia, Limassol, Larnaca and Paphos. Similar disturbances took place in January and February of 1957.

http://www.psywarrior.com/cyprus.html

Nikitas, there please also read the first TC leaflet, published by Volkan... Although it sounds a lot amateurish, it gives many insights regarding then the TC point of view on armed struggle and Enosis.

[Get Real!]

I once recall a granny wanting to be dropped off in Lourougina from Tymbou to buy a cauldron from the “gypsy people”!

Reh vromo shilla, nabais sto rizokarpazo sto singenissu re gharo.

Y-Fronts, wasn’t it the Lourougina people who went round the neighboring villages on donkeys selling skewers and such?

Every time they’d come knocking on our doors, us kids were really scared of them so we’d run and hide under the beds!

Their infamy was due to a kid who showed up at school one day with a little scab on the side of his eye, most likely caused from a fall while running around, who when asked how he got it said… “The Gypsies from Lourougina poked me in the eye with a skewer!”.

That’s all I needed to hear! I must’ve broken the world 500m record running home after hearing that story!

[YFred]

I once recall a granny wanting to be dropped off in Lourougina from Tymbou to buy a cauldron from the “gypsy people”!

Reh vromo shilla, nabais sto rizokarpazo sto singenissu re gharo.

Y-Fronts, wasn’t it the Lourougina people who went round the neighboring villages on donkeys selling skewers and such?

Every time they’d come knocking on our doors, us kids were really scared of them so we’d run and hide under the beds!

Their infamy was due to a kid who showed up at school one day with a little scab on the side of his eye, most likely caused from a fall while running around, who when asked how he got it said… “The Gypsies from Lourougina poked me in the eye with a skewer!”.

That’s all I needed to hear! I must’ve broken the world 500m record running home after hearing that story!

Stanatheman je boji re vromo bello. Ise dellya jinganes.

You know very well Lurucadis were a farming community and produced amongst other things Domates reh. The GCs needed it most on account of their low virility reh gumbare and low percentage of childbirth, and we obliged.

[GeorgeV97qaue]

Like the Commission, the Court did not consider it appropriate to estimate the number of persons who fell into the category of “missing persons”. The Commission’s findings had been summarised as follows;

“25. The Commission found that the evidence submitted to it in the instant case confirmed its earlier findings that certain of the missing persons were last seen in Turkish or Turkish-Cypriot custody. In this connection, the Commission had regard to the following: a statement of Mr Denktaş, “President of the TRNC”, broadcast on 1 March 1996, in which he admitted that forty-two Greek-Cypriot prisoners were handed over to Turkish-Cypriot fighters who killed them and that in order to prevent further such killings prisoners were subsequently transferred to Turkey; the broadcast statement of Mr Yalçin Küçük, a former Turkish officer who had served in the Turkish army at the time and participated in the 1974 military operation in Cyprus, in which he suggested that the Turkish army had engaged in widespread killings of, inter alia, civilians in so-called cleaning-up operations; the Dillon Report submitted to the United States Congress in May 1998 indicating, inter alia, that Turkish and Turkish-Cypriot soldiers rounded up Greek-Cypriot civilians in the village of Asha on 18 August 1974 and took away males over the age of 15, most of whom were reportedly killed by Turkish-Cypriot fighters; the written statements of witnesses tending to corroborate the Commission’s earlier findings that many persons now missing were taken into custody by Turkish soldiers or Turkish-Cypriot paramilitaries.

26. The Commission concluded that, notwithstanding evidence of the killing of Greek-Cypriot prisoners and civilians, there was no proof that any of the missing persons were killed in circumstances for which the respondent State could be held responsible; nor did the Commission find any evidence to the effect that any of the persons taken into custody were still being detained or kept in servitude by the respondent State. On the other hand, the Commission found it established that the facts surrounding the fate of the missing persons had not been clarified by the authorities and brought to the notice of the victims’ relatives.”

http://www.cna.org.cy/website/english/edad.shtm

Nikitas, the fate of the ALL missing persons depends on confessions and reports of people and officials who have true information abt them.

And the only way to the truth is if the GCs start to confess to the numbers that were killed by their own and stop this blaming the Turks for every death.....If they were to say "Look, we admit that many of those were our doing" then we might just get to the bottom of this.....Denktas was honest about it so why can't they...Some sort of propaganda war perhaps??

Denktas was honet when was that then? I remember watching a BBC documentarty about the missing people and he sat their and said he didnt know what happened to the 1000 missing people. He did say they wernt executed. He is biggest bullshtter ever.

He was part of the 74 invasion and he knows exactly what happened to all the missing. Lets not forget how many TC's that were killed by the TMT so they could force the TC community into the enclaves just so Turkey had its justification to invade in the futre which they did. The trouble in the 60's was down to you lot as well not just us.

You really are beyond help. But I will try anyway.
TMT killed TCs who tried to wake people up about the intention of Some GCs and TCs to split the island up and that it would lead to war and disaster.
Kavazoglu and the two lawyers spring to mind. The reason for the TCs seeking refuge in the enclaves was because they feared your heros eoka. The killed plenty of innocent TCs. The job of TMT was to protect the enclaves. Nobody was forced to stay there. I personally know of one man who did not take the advice and ventured into Dali and never returned. Another a nurse also did not take that advice and heeded the call of the RoC to return to the Hospital where he worked and we all know what they did to him. My two other neighbours were farm hands on a GC farm never returned. You ignorant excuse for a human being.

I'm not saying TC's were not harmed by GC's they were you are correct. But dont make out you lot are whiter than white. Your TMT were forceing TC's into the enclaves. Have you forgotten the bomb the TMT planted in Nicosia which killed TC's and then they tried to blame it on the GC's.

I see that you have completely ignored my comments about Denktash is that because I'm talking the truth. I have noticed that everytime we quote the truth you always refuse to talk about it.

As I have said many time yes we did commit crimes against the TC's. Why dont you admit your crimes you idiot.

Have you tried looking in the mirror lately? You will see one every time you do.

Bomb by Dnektash was put for the same purpose the GCs put theirs. Both sides did exactly the same trick. They were not real crimes though. The real crime was committed afterwards when eoka attacked and ethnically cleansed 103 villages. TMT didn't run around attacking TCs to force them in to the enclaves. The one I quoted and has been confirmed is the Isozomeno siege where your braves surrounded it and Lurucadi TMT went to their rescue. You have a remarkable knack for blaming TCs for everything. Idiocy is your speciality sir. How do you serve it with or without onions? I’ll have mine plane with no sauces, as I am not partial to the colour brown or red.

Unlike some of the forumers I can mention.

Yfred are you not able to read my posts. I have clearly stated we have bood on our hands I am not denying that. I'm just trying paint the true picture not the one you have been feeding the world to try and get isolation lifted.

You are as much to blame for the trouble as we are.

[YFred]

Like the Commission, the Court did not consider it appropriate to estimate the number of persons who fell into the category of “missing persons”. The Commission’s findings had been summarised as follows;

“25. The Commission found that the evidence submitted to it in the instant case confirmed its earlier findings that certain of the missing persons were last seen in Turkish or Turkish-Cypriot custody. In this connection, the Commission had regard to the following: a statement of Mr Denktaş, “President of the TRNC”, broadcast on 1 March 1996, in which he admitted that forty-two Greek-Cypriot prisoners were handed over to Turkish-Cypriot fighters who killed them and that in order to prevent further such killings prisoners were subsequently transferred to Turkey; the broadcast statement of Mr Yalçin Küçük, a former Turkish officer who had served in the Turkish army at the time and participated in the 1974 military operation in Cyprus, in which he suggested that the Turkish army had engaged in widespread killings of, inter alia, civilians in so-called cleaning-up operations; the Dillon Report submitted to the United States Congress in May 1998 indicating, inter alia, that Turkish and Turkish-Cypriot soldiers rounded up Greek-Cypriot civilians in the village of Asha on 18 August 1974 and took away males over the age of 15, most of whom were reportedly killed by Turkish-Cypriot fighters; the written statements of witnesses tending to corroborate the Commission’s earlier findings that many persons now missing were taken into custody by Turkish soldiers or Turkish-Cypriot paramilitaries.

26. The Commission concluded that, notwithstanding evidence of the killing of Greek-Cypriot prisoners and civilians, there was no proof that any of the missing persons were killed in circumstances for which the respondent State could be held responsible; nor did the Commission find any evidence to the effect that any of the persons taken into custody were still being detained or kept in servitude by the respondent State. On the other hand, the Commission found it established that the facts surrounding the fate of the missing persons had not been clarified by the authorities and brought to the notice of the victims’ relatives.”

http://www.cna.org.cy/website/english/edad.shtm

Nikitas, the fate of the ALL missing persons depends on confessions and reports of people and officials who have true information abt them.

And the only way to the truth is if the GCs start to confess to the numbers that were killed by their own and stop this blaming the Turks for every death.....If they were to say "Look, we admit that many of those were our doing" then we might just get to the bottom of this.....Denktas was honest about it so why can't they...Some sort of propaganda war perhaps??

Denktas was honet when was that then? I remember watching a BBC documentarty about the missing people and he sat their and said he didnt know what happened to the 1000 missing people. He did say they wernt executed. He is biggest bullshtter ever.

He was part of the 74 invasion and he knows exactly what happened to all the missing. Lets not forget how many TC's that were killed by the TMT so they could force the TC community into the enclaves just so Turkey had its justification to invade in the futre which they did. The trouble in the 60's was down to you lot as well not just us.

You really are beyond help. But I will try anyway.
TMT killed TCs who tried to wake people up about the intention of Some GCs and TCs to split the island up and that it would lead to war and disaster.
Kavazoglu and the two lawyers spring to mind. The reason for the TCs seeking refuge in the enclaves was because they feared your heros eoka. The killed plenty of innocent TCs. The job of TMT was to protect the enclaves. Nobody was forced to stay there. I personally know of one man who did not take the advice and ventured into Dali and never returned. Another a nurse also did not take that advice and heeded the call of the RoC to return to the Hospital where he worked and we all know what they did to him. My two other neighbours were farm hands on a GC farm never returned. You ignorant excuse for a human being.

I'm not saying TC's were not harmed by GC's they were you are correct. But dont make out you lot are whiter than white. Your TMT were forceing TC's into the enclaves. Have you forgotten the bomb the TMT planted in Nicosia which killed TC's and then they tried to blame it on the GC's.

I see that you have completely ignored my comments about Denktash is that because I'm talking the truth. I have noticed that everytime we quote the truth you always refuse to talk about it.

As I have said many time yes we did commit crimes against the TC's. Why dont you admit your crimes you idiot.

Have you tried looking in the mirror lately? You will see one every time you do.

Bomb by Dnektash was put for the same purpose the GCs put theirs. Both sides did exactly the same trick. They were not real crimes though. The real crime was committed afterwards when eoka attacked and ethnically cleansed 103 villages. TMT didn't run around attacking TCs to force them in to the enclaves. The one I quoted and has been confirmed is the Isozomeno siege where your braves surrounded it and Lurucadi TMT went to their rescue. You have a remarkable knack for blaming TCs for everything. Idiocy is your speciality sir. How do you serve it with or without onions? I’ll have mine plane with no sauces, as I am not partial to the colour brown or red.

Unlike some of the forumers I can mention.

Yfred are you not able to read my posts. I have clearly stated we have bood on our hands I am not denying that. I'm just trying paint the true picture not the one you have been feeding the world to try and get isolation lifted.

You are as much to blame for the trouble as we are.

Now that you are referring to me by my name, we can talk. So if we are both as guilty as each other, then why are your guilty GCs free to trade and the innocent TCs not. Do you understand my grievance?