Cyprus-Forum.com

[MicAtCyp]

About the limited sovereignty I talked before:
Britain's "sovereign rights" are exclusively limited to use of the Bases strictly for military purposes. The Bases have no administrative sovereignty, no economic sovereignty, no territorial waters or 200-mile economic sea zone. Also international law prohibits the occupation of lands by any country outside its territory, while according to UN resolutions the occupation of territory in former colonies is illegal.

[cannedmoose]

About the limited sovereignty I talked before:
Britain's "sovereign rights" are exclusively limited to use of the Bases strictly for military purposes. The Bases have no administrative sovereignty, no economic sovereignty, no territorial waters or 200-mile economic sea zone. Also international law prohibits the occupation of lands by any country outside its territory, while according to UN resolutions the occupation of territory in former colonies is illegal.

Very true, in those senses, sovereignty is indeed limited.

[DeportedFU2Cyprus]

Dear All

Firstly the SBA's are sovereign British territory, they can not be "negotiated" away, they can only ever be given back by the British. Who ever wrote that the sea is not included is wrong the territory extends to the seas surrounding the SBA's.

Secondly the reason why the UK hasn't paid rent for the bases is because of the breakdown of the Republic and/or its constitution. Britain is only obliged to pay rent for the bases as a consequence of the Treaty of Establishment as annexed to the 1960 constitution (copied below.) As the constitution was effectively "ripped up" in 1963, Britain holds that its obligations there under are purged until such time as there is a comprehensive settlement of the Cyprus issue. In much the same way as the R of C has suspended dealing with the issue of Muslim Cypriot land/property until there is a comprehensive settlement. Britain also considers that payment of rent would disadvantage one side over the other and although it recognises the R of C as the legitimate government of Cyprus, its obligations under the treaty of establishment were to both communities, so any payments it makes under the terms of the Treaty of establishment should be made to a government that represents and is made up of both communities

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[Piratis]

Firstly the SBA's are sovereign British territory

You mean the way that India, the whole of Cyprus and half the world was British territory?
If you don't understand that people of the world do not accept masters any more then I am afraid those terrorist attacks some days ago were just the beginning. Why don't you just leave our country to us? Your territory is your country, not any other country or part of another country.

Secondly the reason why the UK hasn't paid rent for the bases is because of the breakdown of the Republic and/or its constitution.

"the breakdown of the Republic and/or its constitution" is an additional reason why British bases should be removed from Cyprus since the UK guaranteed that it wouldn't brake down.

[DeportedFU2Cyprus]

"You mean the way that India, the whole of Cyprus and half the world was British territory?"

No the way that the founders of the Cypriot constitution built in provisions for the SBA's. So unlike India the constitution of Cyprus guarantees the territorial integrity of the Sovereign Base Areas. The clue is in the word "sovereign"

If you don't understand that people of the world do not accept masters any more then I am afraid those terrorist attacks some days ago were just the beginning.

The bombs a few days ago aren't the first the British have endured, we had 30+ years of the IRA, so the odd bomb here or there won't matter much to us. By the way, bringing into your argument two entirely different issues is not only bad debating practice it is also poor form to link the death of 50+ people to your lame argument.

"Why don't you just leave our country to us? Your territory is your country, not any other country or part of another country."

Our territories include the two Sovereign Base Areas; they are British territory and will remain so until we decide we no longer need them. They are not up for negotiation, which is why you will find them as excluded territory from the Cypriot accession documents to the EU. You may as well get it into your heads, they are ours today and they will remain ours.

"the breakdown of the Republic and/or its constitution" is an additional reason why British bases should be removed from Cyprus since the UK guaranteed that it wouldn't brake down."

If the British bases hadn't been there in 1974 Cyprus would be a Turkish island now, the official language would be Turkish and your churches would now be mosques.

Why do you think the Turks stopped where they did? It isn't cheap to send a peace keeping/invasion force so why stop at a third of the island? If you're going to be hung for the sheep as the lamb, why not have the whole thing?

The Christian Cypriot resistance to the invasion was patchy and disorganised and would have folded. Greece could not supply air cover due the distances involved, so Turkey could have wrapped up the whole island in a month.

The only reason they didn't was because it wasn't in the plan! If Turkey had gone beyond the agreed positions, Britain would have ignored America's request and got involved militarily.

Brian Semmens

[Main_Source]

The bombs a few days ago aren't the first the British have endured, we had 30+ years of the IRA, so the odd bomb here or there won't matter much to us. By the way, bringing into your argument two entirely different issues is not only bad debating practice it is also poor form to link the death of 50+ people to your lame argument

The two points relate exactly. Although nobody condones innocent killings...the given reason for commiting such acts IS BECAUSE of British occupation and invasion of foreign lands.

If the British bases hadn't been there in 1974 Cyprus would be a Turkish island now, the official language would be Turkish and your churches would now be mosques.

Why do you think the Turks stopped where they did? It isn't cheap to send a peace keeping/invasion force so why stop at a third of the island? If you're going to be hung for the sheep as the lamb, why not have the whole thing?

The Christian Cypriot resistance to the invasion was patchy and disorganised and would have folded. Greece could not supply air cover due the distances involved, so Turkey could have wrapped up the whole island in a month.

The only reason they didn't was because it wasn't in the plan! If Turkey had gone beyond the agreed positions, Britain would have ignored America's request and got involved militarily.

So you are admitting that the British let Turkey invade 1/3 of the island? Also, if it wasnt for the British, the muslim and christian communities probably would not have tyurned on eachother.

[DeportedFU2Cyprus]

Dear Main Source

The two points relate exactly. Although nobody condones innocent killings...the given reason for commiting such acts IS BECAUSE of British occupation and invasion of foreign lands.

I am sorry but the two points do not "exactly" relate; thus far no one knows the “given” reason why these people did what they did. There has been endless press, public and political speculation about the reason why, but so far it is pure conjecture to say that it may be because of Britain’s support for the war in Iraq. However there is no hard evidence to prove conclusively that this is what caused it, so until there is hard evidence, it is only an opinion and opinions are just like ar*eholes, every one has one!

So you are admitting that the British let Turkey invade 1/3 of the island? Also, if it wasnt for the British, the muslim and christian communities probably would not have tyurned on eachother.[i]

Yes to the first part of your question. Britain was asked by the US to stand aside and allow Turkey to invade to protect the Muslim Cypriots. Not our finest hour, but then again, there is another way of looking at this; since September 1974 no Christian Cypriot has killed an innocent Muslim Cypriot, so I guess the "peace operation/invasion" worked and Britain can take some comfort for the lives saved.

No to the second part of your question; the Christian Cypriots had already turned on the Muslims, so regardless of Britain’s action or inaction; they were already killing innocent Muslim Cypriots prior to the 20th July 1974 "peace operation/invasion." They certainly didn't need British help or assistance to kill their Muslim countrymen; they had been doing that for years.

But what has this got to do with the status of the bases? The topic was about the status of the SBA's and some of the members thought the British had no right to be in Cyprus. Well we are there, we will stay there and that's that.

Brian Semmens

[Agios Amvrosios]

Aye re koumbare FCKU2 or whatever you call yourself,

Five or six british appointed Turkish fanatic police torturers are killed 100 years ago and you act like its a big deal.You reap what you sow. The 2 or 3 innocent Turks we mourn. BUT!Very few of those who were killed were innocent and tenfolds of innocent people were killed both directly and indirectly as a result of the invasion in 1974.

[DeportedFU2Cyprus]

Dear Agios Amvrosios

I call myself Brian Semmens or DeportedFU2Cyprus not:

"FCKU2 or whatever you call yourself"

I have used the first name since my birth and the second one since Cyprus decided to illegally deport me from there.

My case is in the ECHR and I will get my justice whenever it happens. As the Sicilians say, "Revenge is a dish best served/eaten cold"

So according to you just:

Five or six british appointed Turkish fanatic police torturers are killed 100 years ago and you act like its a big deal.You reap what you sow. The 2 or 3 innocent Turks we mourn. BUT!Very few of those who were killed were innocent and tenfolds of innocent people were killed both directly and indirectly as a result of the invasion in 1974.

My my, we are in very serious denial aren't we? So you say that just 7 or 9 were the total number of Muslim Cypriots killed during the 50's, 60's and 70's?

As regards the old "peace operation/invasion," thingy; how many were killed during the coup organised by Greece and the Christian Cypriots? I'm guessing that if only 7 or 9 Muslim Cypriots died in over three decades, by that logic not a single person must have been killed during the coup?

You can kid yourself all you like, but don't try to insult the intelligence of those who know the truth, the real truth, not the truth according to the denialist, self-deluding Cypriots.

Brian Semmens

[cannedmoose]

Brian, are you in a position to tell us the reasons why you were deported from Cyprus? It's an assumption but from your name I would assume that you are a British citizen and therefore have the right to freedom of movement throughout the EU. It cannot therefore be a case of illegal immigration.

As for your point about the invasion period not being Britain's finest hour, I agree. However, to have gone against the wishes of the US would have been a repeat of Suez, a repeat which a British economy on its knees and begging for help from the IMF would have been unable to sustain. Often those who argue that Britain was complicit in the Turkish occupation fail to appreciate this fact. Every nation has to look after its own interests and in 1974 Britain was just about able to maintain itself, let alone fight on behalf of Cyprus. In hindsight, I wish they had warned Turkey, but quite what state we'd be in as a result, God only knows.