Cyprus-Forum.com

[MicAtCyp]

By contrast, many of the younger GCs that I know are far more radical and are a product of an education system that has taught them to think in that way.

This is one of the most usual superficial reasons I hear, together with that concerning the influence of the church. Obviously it's an effort to explain todays situation with what has happening in the GC society 50 years ago. However nobody so far has done a scientific study isolationg the influence of those factors (school and church) from other factors today

I beleive the young people of today are more radical because their parents lived through the misery of been refugees and they experienced first hand their sorrow and suffering. Kids understand very well the pain of their parents whereas they usually care less /pay no attention/don't even read their books at school. As for the influence of the church among the youngsters thats really a joke.

For the influence of army, I will risk saying once again that you have no personal experience of what is going on in the GC army, even if that might cause another explosion of your suppressed empathemas.

[Dhavlos]

MicAtCyp:

I beleive the young people of today are more radical because their parents lived through the misery of been refugees and they experienced first hand their sorrow and suffering. Kids understand very well the pain of their parents whereas they usually care less /pay no attention/don't even read their books at school.

I agree with you on this, and this is why children are more radical. If instead they listened to their parents experiances, but also read books on the subject, they could take a less one-sided view of events. Do you understand what i mean? I know young people are the last people to want to read books on history, but maybe when they are older, and would take a much more mature (? ) approach to events.

Also, Im sure there are very few Gcs who have told their children the greeks did a coup first. Usually, its that (or at least in my experiance) the Turks invaded, stole our land, killed our people and are still there.

I understand however, that there was intercommunal strife(mainly caused by EOKA B) then the TCs 'retaliated' (by creating TMT). Lots of people from both sides murdered, the TCs left parliament in protest. THen a 'greek' called sampson or something did a military coup, then the Turks invaded. I know it is a simplified view of events, but isnt it the basic jist of what happened?

As for the influence of the church among the youngsters thats really a joke.

Well, you say that, but in england, when you have 'greek schools' organised by the church etc. it is hard for them to not be influencial, even if it is indirect. Often, the church would celebrate days concerning Greek history(25march etc.). Also for celebrations, we used to sing songs praising EOKA etc... In a way, although children are not told by the church directly, the atmosphere that surrounds them (at least in UK wiv greek schools) is predominantly anti-turk/tc.

i know this is a generalisation, and not true in cases...but it is relevent.

[negotiator]

Piratis, You must really loose the pent up agression and animosty you hold. You are doing nothing for yourself or your people with this totalitarian attitude.

[cannedmoose]

By contrast, many of the younger GCs that I know are far more radical and are a product of an education system that has taught them to think in that way.

This is one of the most usual superficial reasons I hear, together with that concerning the influence of the church. Obviously it's an effort to explain todays situation with what has happening in the GC society 50 years ago. However nobody so far has done a scientific study isolationg the influence of those factors (school and church) from other factors today

I beleive the young people of today are more radical because their parents lived through the misery of been refugees and they experienced first hand their sorrow and suffering. Kids understand very well the pain of their parents whereas they usually care less /pay no attention/don't even read their books at school. As for the influence of the church among the youngsters thats really a joke.

For the influence of army, I will risk saying once again that you have no personal experience of what is going on in the GC army, even if that might cause another explosion of your suppressed empathemas.

MicAtCyp, I'm beyond exploding at you to be honest because it's like beating my head against a brick wall, so I'll spare both you and myself the necessity of doing so. I would also prefer to have a constructive debate with you about issues rather than a series of comments ending with a supercilious and unnecessary remark. Hence I won't rise to your challenge.

What you say is true, I have no personal experience of what goes on within the army, but does that make my understanding of what goes on any less valid? According to that argument, unless you experience something first hand, you have no right to comment on it. Thus our entire understanding of sociology, politics, history etc etc etc has no relevance according to your definition. My understanding of the army comes from talking at length with a good number of my family members and friends who have served in various army capacities, including some of the more elite units. All that I have heard justifies my claim that the army continues to pursue a policy of radicalisation, after all, to kill someone, you have to feel able to do so... you have to feel that you are shooting a thing, rather than another human being. It is true that combat effectiveness is sometimes degraded if you hate too much, but if you hate a little and feel no connection to the person you're shooting, it's easier to pull the trigger.

I actually find myself in agreement with you on your point regarding influence on kids, but I think you underestimate the importance of education as a tool for moulding opinions and attitudes. If you are told something over and over again, you might not listen and actively think about it, but you will absorb it eventually. I agree that the home environment also plays a crucial role in forging how kids perceive the Cyprus issue, if I were the child of a refugee, then I would certainly appreciate my parents' and grandparents' pain, especially if I were exposed to it every single day in conversations, pictures of 'home' etc.

Not just the home, but the Cyprus media also plays an important part in this. The state media is propaganda machine #1, and with the traditionally limited viewing options in Cyprus, that message was pumped into every home, every night via the news, documentaries, coverage of parades and so on. That may change now that many kids have the option of watching a multitude of other channels rather than the stodgy old PIK, but it's undoubtedly been a factor.

You are right that no-one has done a scientific study of how GC attitudes are moulded by various agencies, but I think to discount the Church's role is incorrect for similar reasons to school. Church attendance may be more of a social responsibility than active worship for most Cypriots, especially since the majority is in ancient Greek. However, as with any propaganda, if the Priest's rail against the Turks every Sunday, every Easter, every Christmas etc. (which the Priest I have here in the UK does), then it will be absorbed, especially by the impressionable young. Since many religious studies teachers in Cyprus are also priests, the effect is even more pronounced.

So, I agree that it's not just education that's a factor, society almost as a whole combines to forge a common general mindset, and many agents are involved in the construction of that mindset. And since you've given me an idea for my thesis in writing this, I will end this comment by saying thank you MicAtCyp for your comments. Hopefully this is the level of communication we can have in the future rather than having a 'buffer-zone-esque' rude exchange.

[MicAtCyp]

if we are constantly under isolation and now allowed to build our economy them we will be bound to them forever, this is where I feel GCs should re-evalute their negative stance and assist us to move away from Turkey and more towards the south, therefore aiding a solution.

Well frankly speaking you repeated this argument so many times that got me thinking. On the other hand you know this is too dangerous for us GCs to do, I mean whatever we did to help you so far has not been really appreciated and propably any of you economic advance will just extinguish your desire for reunification.
Anyway the fact is that since the opening of the borders your economic status has increased by some 50%(?) -not sure of the exact percentage. The question is how much more independent you became from Turkey? In my opinion nothing.You have the property of GCs getting sold and that brought in more than 2 billion (?) a year which is as much (?) as Turkey was helping you every year. How much did you move away from them? Again zero.

In my opinion even if you get totally economically independent from them, you will need them for their military.You know this shit costs too much I mean it costs us 1 million per day! As we know the power of the military as it is structured in the north is such that can excercise full control on you.

So I conclude that an initial agreement for full demilitarisation of Cyprus seems necessary if we are to try the economic equalising stuff. Remember the aim is to get you off from Turkeys hook. For your protection we could have a big EU force plus your existing police, wheras we the GCs be completely disarmed.
This way we could quite easily try this "economic help" experiment in stages.First year you get completely free trade from ports.Next year completely free trade from airports.Third year direct flights. And see how close it will bring us together towards re-unification. Perhaps you were right and it might work. Who knows? If it does then a solution will come by itself very easily. If it doesn’t then no problem at least we got rid of the fear of new war. And you would really be free, I mean look at you now, even to open a check point you have to ask for their permission. As if it is a matter of such a great-great security stuff.....You got rid of the 1960 oppression of the Gcs and you got another demon oppressing you...

[Viewpoint]

MicAtCyp congratualtions so you can reply in a civlized fashion without belittling and scarcastic remarks, that all I ask of you. No one is an expert we are all expressing our own personal opinions and trying to learn what the other sides thinks and expects of us. We have to work together to build structures that will bring us together, the idea of gradual support from the south for eceonomic growth in the north you have suggested is very positive and can be developed to bring both communites together showing that no side is out to out do the other but our ultimate goal would be to build trust, with an improved outlook the remaining issues would in time become more more and more easy to resolve as both sides would be more willing to compromise.
For example figures and statistical could be compiled with the help of the EU with regard to property and how many refugees would want to retrun or sell their property if prices we more at current market levels. These are issues that would again bring us together helping us to understand each others concerns and overcome our fears building a united Cyprus.

[Yiannis]

So I conclude that an initial agreement for full demilitarisation of Cyprus seems necessary if we are to try the economic equalising stuff.

So Viewpoint do you agree with the above statement?

[Viewpoint]

I agree that the whole island should be demilitarized but over what period and at what stages and amounts this is open to discussion.

[MicAtCyp]

Cannedmoose,

The kind of conversations that you are looking for are difficult and rare in this section of the forum re. If you notice carefully the only people who write moderate posts are those who are not directly influenced by the Cyprob. The posts of expats are usually like that...
Besides do you see many people who can write something worth reading in here? There are such people both TCs and Gcs but in the end they get bored and leave. I mean the majority in here only understands provocations and insults...

Anyway you analysed quite well the process of perception building in Cyprus. Basically it is the same everywhere in the world. As an example one can see the perception of the Americans (perhaps of the British too) regarding the Iraq war. The majority of them came to beleive it was to secure the world from terrorism!!!!

Anyway I will write my thoughts and experiences regarding the GC army for you to consider as it seems we have a basic disagreement on this. I don't insist my views on this matter is the absolute truth, so it's upto you to evaluate them and take whatever part you accept or even reject them totally.

How the "shoot a thing-not a human" process is formed:The process applied to conscripts as a copy of the process the military officers were gone through while they were trained at their Military Academies.They only difference is that professional Military officers got this training for 2 years (out of their 4 years at the Academies) which results to their absolute crushing of personality, whereas the conscripts get it for about a month and a much milder degree.

Contrary to what you beleive this process does not aim at creating hate for the Turks!!!! It aims at crushing your own personality, to make you think you are nothing -A ZERO- to make you feel that either you are alive or dead is the same thing, to humiliate you so much that you can accept any other humiliation with apathy, to make you forget about any feelings you have either for your parents your brothers and sisters your girlfriend or wife, your friends and whatever you ever loved or cared for. In other words the first 2 year long step in this process is to make the army officer become a zero.I have to write a whole book to explain in detail how this is done but I am sure you can use your imagination to figure it out.

Notice I talk of what was happening 20 years ago. Today things seem to be much milder, but I really don't know how much.

My friend did you ever attend a wedding of a military officer? Well, if yes then there you can watch the crush of an officers personality. I attended one a couple of years ago. According to the military tradition after the ceremony the groom receives orders from his colleaques. What these orders are, in a sort of a joke manner, will schock you and make you sick. Hold the bride up, and with all that load run round the church 3 times.And the idiot excecutes it laughing!!! And when he finishes fully sweated his colleaques will order him to shout some other silly jokes at his wife,his parents in law etc.

In the end with this "military traing" you get a person who is anxious to torture, humiliate, and kill other human beings. Even his own people. The junta in Greece was the best example.Those people needed to explode. And the only way to do it at that time was against their own people.

What I want to say it is not even necessary to mention the word Turk". And the fact is during my own whole army life I never directly heard any preaching against the Turks.However all night alarms, all on field excercises, all fears, all "fight for your life, your family and your honour" stuff implied one specific enemy.....

In summary: The Army training does not rely on propaganda not even to 1%. It aims at crushing your personality and make you an enemy of your own self and of everybody.When the time comes all they need to do is just present you "THE" enemy.

PS. What is the subject of your thesis? Will you have it on the internet after is done?

[MicAtCyp]

Well, you say that, but in england, when you have 'greek schools' organised by the church etc. it is hard for them to not be influencial, even if it is indirect. Often, the church would celebrate days concerning Greek history(25march etc.). Also for celebrations, we used to sing songs praising EOKA etc... In a way, although children are not told by the church directly, the atmosphere that surrounds them (at least in UK wiv greek schools) is predominantly anti-turk/tc.

i know this is a generalisation, and not true in cases...but it is relevent.

I actually agree with you about the situation in England. I hope you are not offended but the general opinion we have here in Cyprus is that the expats got a sort of cultural fixation to the 50s. What you have there as a young generation is what your parents had here 50 years ago. Strong ties with the church, Eoka beleifs etc. I don't know why is that, I can only assume that there is a feeling of loneliness among the expats in their new environmen- they feel foreigners and they have no other way to fill this sentimental gap, than stick together among them and also stick to the traditions and beleifs they had before emmigrating.