Cyprus-Forum.com

[Simon]

Insan wrote:

Simon, do u know what language or better to say dialect, the Hitites were speaking?

Have a google search and come back please....

Let me guess, you're going to tell me the Hittites were Turkish?

2. Hittite on Egyptian Monuments:



The Hittite type is represented, not only on their own monuments, but on those of the XVIIIth and XIXth Egyptian Dynasties, including a~ colored picture of the time of Rameses III. The type represented has a short head and receding forehead, a prominent and sometimes rather curved nose, a strong jaw and a hairless face. The complexion is yellow, the eyes slightly slanting, the hair of the head black, and gathered into a long pigtail behind. The physiognomy is like that of the Sumerians represented on a bas-relief at Tel-loh (Zirgul) in Chaldea, and very like that of some of the Kirghiz Mongols of the present time, and of some of the more purely Mongolic Turks. The head of Gudea at Zirgul in like manner shows (about 2800 BC) the broad cheek bones and hairless face of the Turkish type; and the language of his texts, in both grammar and vocabulary, is closely similar to pure Turkish speech.

http://www.bible-history.com/map-israel ... pedia.html

Do ur research and u decide....

In all honesty insan, there is very little evidence to suggest the Hittites were actually Turks. I have not seen any independent expert (with the consensus of other experts) come out and say the Hittites were Turks. Yes, there are some similarities it seems, but to go as far as to say they were Turks is stretching the tenuous evidence quite a bit. The Hittites spoke an Indo-European language which is now extinct.

Sorry if I don't take these claims too seriously, but the Turks have a history of trying to claim everything as Turkish. This is something else I came across:

"Belgians are Turks, says Turk academic

GAZİANTEP – Anatolia News Agency

The Belgian people are descended from a part of the Oğuz Turks tribe who settled in the region thousands of years ago, said the head of Gaziantep University's Department of Medical Biology yesterday.

In a move that is destined to bring Belgians and Turks together as brothers, Professor Ahmet Arslan said that when the Selçuk part of the Oğuz tribe formed a state in Central Asia, their capital was called Genk, having the same name as the city of Genk in Belgium.

He also said the symbol of Genk Municipality was a double headed eagle, and added as his conclusive proof, "In the Selçuk tribe, the same symbol was used. One head symbolized Interior Oğuz while the other Exterior Oğuz."

Referring to the city of Genk in Belgium, Arslan said: "There are many dark haired, light skinned people there. This is the basic characteristic of the Oğuz tribe."

Arslan said Kurds were also a branch of the Oğuz Tribe. "I think the Kazıkurtları seen as part of the Oğuz tribe are linked to Kurds. Kurds appear to be from the Exterior Oğuz," said the academic.The molecular genetic studies the department had conducted showed the main migration route from Central Asia followed the north west and west of the Caucasus Mountains, Arslan said. He said there were close blood ties between Europeans and Turks as a result of these tribal migrations."

Belgians are Turks, says Turk academic - Turkish Daily News Jan 08, 2008

It seems that the Turks are working their way around the world. I believe a lot of it is politically motivated. Soon, there will be a report that the English are a Turkish tribe.

In any event, there was no mass Hittite colonisation of Cyprus. The Greeks colonised Cyprus and founded various city-states from 1200BC. Cyprus has had a distinctly Greek culture ever since. The TCs came well after, and many GCs converted to Islam for better living conditions. These are facts I'm afraid that pictures of Rameses III do not alter.

[Viewpoint]

Simon

TCs have the same rights as every other Cypriot citizen, no more. Of course this means you have the right to be safe, just like GCs do, this is what the law is for, along with EU safeguards. It does not mean that you can take a piece of Cyprus and call it Turkish, declare an "independent state" on stolen land, import thousands of settlers to alter the demographics of the island, change the names of the towns, villages and roads, deny the legal occupants the right to their properties, loot churches and sell religious symbols on the black market. Remember VP, TCs have just as much blame, if not more, for the violence of the 1960s, and certainly do not deserve any more than any other Cypriot. TCs are living safe and sound in the RoC right now. They are not suffering daily attacks. You are living in the past and have not recognised how much things have changed. Guess what...GCs no longer seek enosis, there is no junta anymore, Cyprus is a member of the EU, and all of its citizens are protected by the rule of law. But I know that this is all an act VP. You are a charlatan. You make out that you are so terrified of the GCs, and put on this pretence that you are convinced GCs are blood hungry and just waiting to wipe out the TCs as soon as they get the chance, hence you need all this protection in a prison "state", but deep down you know what incredulous rubbish this is. It is simply a cover for your true feelings. The truth VP is that you are a racist. It is clear to anybody who lifts the veil of every one of your posts. You are about scaremongering; trying to convince TCs never to trust GCs under any circumstances, unless GCs agree to gift a third of the island to Turkey. You are a racist nationalist who can't stand the thought of TCs living peacefully with GCs. This is why you questioned The Cypriot on this very point in another thread. The very fact that TCs and GCs can live together peacefully breaks your heart, because it is a blow to your aims, and you try to suppress it wherever you find it, lest TCs might actually start to believe that they don't need Turkey after all.

VP wrote:

I am what I am if you dont like it then thats your problem not mine.

At least you're not denying the fact that you're a charlatan and a racist. It's not my problem VP that you display two characteristics that are reviled by men. You have to live with it.

VP wrote:

Your just saying all will be OK take that leap of faith is not enough there ahs to be clear guide lines, safeguards and guarantees to make both sides stick to the rules....neither side trusts the other and we feel you will try to stab us in the back at every opportunity.

VP, there will be clear guidelines and safeguards. But these will be legal safeguards that protect every citizen, and not anachronistic guarantees by foreign countries. Cyprus is in the EU now and doesn't need any nation to guarantee its independence. Time has moved on from 1960. Turkey abused its Guarantor status and has caused immense damage to Cyprus. So do you seriously believe GCs are going to make the same mistake by giving it the same power again? This is why we advocate a neutral body. The EU is the only guarantor that Cyprus needs, anything else is out of the question. This time we want proper independence.

Remember, GCs also suffered greatly, but we acknowledge that we have to trust the TCs again in order to reach a solution. Otherwise, what is the point in negotiating? TCs need to also understand this. If you have no goodwill towards us, then negotiations are pointless, because you cannot agree anything with someone you have no faith in. Perhaps this is why you couldn't even allow a pilgrimage? This is why I say that the TCs have never been interested in negotiations and compromise, but simply GC capitulation. It was a massive compromise for us to accept a BBF. We did it to make TCs trust us more and feel more secure, but still you refuse to meet us half way. You just keep demanding more and more, and refuse to budge until you have everything you want. All the time, you blackmail us, by holding our land hostage, and goad us by placing a massive flag near the Green Line just so we can see, and then you claim that you can't trust us!

Explain to me please how you think we will stab you in the back? If TCs allegiance is to Cyprus, GCs allegiance is to Cyprus, then we share exactly the same interests, and there is no need for either of us to stab anyone in the back. Of course, if it is your intention to do Turkey's work in Cyprus, then problems will once more arise. But you need to understand that enosis is long dead; so if Taksim dies, we no longer have a reason to fight. You see VP we have moved on, when will you?

VP wrote:

We are 110% certain you will exploit your numerical advanatage to our determent and push us to one side with no effective say in our own future, this we can never accept and need safeguards that will never allow you the opportunity.

This is why we compromised and agreed to a BBF. But it is still not enough for you is it? You want a state that is held together by a string. Sorry, but we prefer the situation now where we are the only recognised legal governors of Cyprus.

VP wrote:

As for living together I have no problem with that but people on both sides of the divide have to be given the option to decide themselves where they wish to live either in the North state under TC administration or the South state under GC administration you cannot force ones rule on the other sooner or later it will collapse.

Sorry, but first and foremost the law takes precedent. TCs can't decide to ignore the law when it suits them. An agreement must be reached where all legal owners of properties have the option to return to their land. If they choose compensation, fine. Otherwise, if you want two ethnically pure states, then the Turkish Cypriot state can be no larger than 18%, and GCs who cannot return to their properties in the 18% can either be compensated with TC properties or with monetary compensation.

Simon wrote:

VP, TCs started the violence in the 1960s. Stop pretending that TCs were somehow innocent bystanders that bloodthirsty GCs just decided to wipe out one day. TCs were just as eager to destroy the 1960 Constitution as the GCs were. And that's even with the 1960 Constitution clearly weighted in your favour. The "TRNC" is a heaven for you because it is what you always wanted, a racist partition where you can gain on others' losses and create an ethnically pure Turkish state. But we will never allow this to be legally accepted. It might feel safe for you to live there at the moment, but just remember, there are a lot of people that are just waiting for the opportunity to overturn the status quo, not because you are Turkish Cypriots and we are Greek Cypriots, but because you are thieves and legality and justice must be served.

VP wrote:

We have been over this many times and we can agree to disagee, all we know becuase we have survived no thanks to GCs to live in peace for 35 years, in comparison we were out numbered discriminated and persecuted in a so called united cyprus where the majority abused their rights to the determent of TCs. The TRNC will always be a monument to your own mistakes and continued arrogance to have the vision or capacity to reunite this island taking into account that it will be under a BBF with poitical equality of the 2 states. We are partners and not just some minority your own constitution tells you so yet you choose to ignore it at your own loss.

There is nothing to disagree about. The TCs were the instigators of much of the violence. They wanted to destroy the 1960 Constitution and execute a partition. Therefore, the inter-communal violence was not the attempted massacre of TCs by GCs, but it was inter-communal violence, i.e. both communities fighting each other. The TCs were just as much to blame, if not more so. If you were so worried about being outnumbered, you shouldn't have been so stupid as to attack the majority community. You brought much of the trouble onto yourselves.

The "TRNC" is a monument to racism, nothing more. The only mistake we made was falling into your trap, enabling you to create this pseudo-state on stolen land.

You are a numeric minority which was given disproportional rights due to the intervention of outside powers. But even this is not enough for you anymore, so we seek to give you more, via a BBF. But even this is not enough. You now want a loose confederation, and to excuse all the illegalities of Turkey's actions. Well sorry VP, but we must draw a line somewhere. For me, agreeing to a BBF was a mistake, but there you have it. Give you an inch, and you take a mile.

Simon wrote:

No, you are arrogant because you believe due to the fact that Turkey is militarily stronger than Cyprus, that you can bring any terms to the negotiation table that suits you, and unless we simply capitulate, Cyprus will remain forever divided. This is the type of rigid, uncomprimising attitude that will eventually be your downfall. VP, I cannot reduce or increase your community. I can only relay the facts to you. The fact is that the TCs are a minority. They are a minority just like any other minority in the world. You are no different to anybody else. As long as all individual rights are safeguarded and Cyprus has anti-discrimination laws (which it does) then you shouldn't have a problem. A community of 18% should not be able to dictate to the other 82%. It is undemocratic and unworkable.

VP wrote:

Now the shoe is on the other foot you call it arrogance ut when you were in the same position 35 years ago you called it your right, the fact you have to deal with is that you must try to comprehend that whats on the table is a BBF of 2 states with a political balance that will never allow you the right to turn us into just another minority and protect our right for a say in our own future and security, If as you ay all these things are provided for by the "roc" and the EU then why do you oppose them so much and will not commit to them again? what are you afraid of can you not trust yourselves or do you really have ulterior motives as we always suspect.

VP, this is the point, a BBF is not enough for you. You practically want an ethnically pure Turkish Cypriot state with high degrees of autonomy, and a weak central government. This is a BBC (and no I'm not referring to the British broadcaster) not a BBF. You want to limit the freedom of movement, and the right to settle anywhere in the country. This is contrary to EU law and is not a Federation in anyone's language. You want to allow tens of thousands of illegal settlers to remain, altering the demographics of the island. You want a Turkish guarantee, even after all the suffering Turkey has inflicted on the GCs. These are things we cannot accept, and you need to make a few compromises and goodwill gestures for a change if you ever want your isolation to end.

Thank you for taking the time to respond in detail but your analysis is riddled with issues we can argue back and forth forever and still not agree anything, this is the chasm I always refer to it is to wde to bridge because you have no intention of accepting compromise which will address our concerns and vice versa isnt this the main reason why we cannot agree a solution and the status quo will remain for many years to come.

I believe that the GCs have done everything they can to compromise and address your concerns, but the TCs will not meet them half-way, so the GCs are reluctant to give away any more. Can you blame them? The chasm is too wide because you want everything your own way. Deep down VP you know this is true, this is why you haven't challenged my post. As long as this attitude remains, then yes, the status quo will remain. But I get the feeling that you're quite happy with that anyway.

Simon I can challenge you on many points but what good will it do, you are clearly a person who loves to play judge jury and excutioner and you have made your mind up end of arguement. The GCs have done absolutely nothing so far towards a solution and continue the policy of lets keep these bastards isolated in the hope the will beg and capitulate to our demands. What you do not realize is that will never happen, although the TRNC is not perfect and many countries arent we would continue as we are than "trust" GCs with our future ever again unless a structure is agreed that will address our fears and concerns, this works both ways and I have no problems with your not wanting the settlers or right to return but when you want to wipe out my security then I start to believe that you have ulterior motives. TCs will only agree to get rid of the Turkeys security agreements over time and has trust and understanding is built up. What happens if we agree to doing away with Turkeys security and classes flare up again with the police force unable to cope or taking the GC side, we are to put it mildly fucked. So no sane TCs will take that step on day 1 in 5 10 years time and with a sincere show of cooperation and goodwill the need for such an agreement will no longer be relevant.

Yes you are right I much prefer the current status quo to being forced to live in a GC state run by GCs for GCs as a minority. Its not the surgeons knife (democracy) we are afraid of but the surgeon himself (the GC administration/majority).

[Simon]

VP wrote:

Simon I can challenge you on many points but what good will it do, you are clearly a person who loves to play judge jury and excutioner and you have made your mind up end of arguement.

VP, you claim that I have made up my mind, when I am in fact far more flexible than you are. You have not made any compromises whatsover, and you never will, because you are intent on keeping the spoils of war, unless the GCs capitulate to all your demands. It is you who refuses to see the other side's point of view. You refuse to accept the damage Turkey has done to the GCs, and you refuse to accept that we do not trust Turkey one iota. You constantly refer to how much you don't trust us, but trust is a two-way street, how much trust are you forging right now with GCs? With the debacle of the pilgrimage amongst many other things? With insisting Turkey can have more rights on Cyprus? You just can't see it can you.

VP wrote:

The GCs have done absolutely nothing so far towards a solution and continue the policy of lets keep these bastards isolated in the hope the will beg and capitulate to our demands.

So what was us agreeing to a BBF then? What us agreeing to give you a disproportionate say in a power-sharing deal? What about the fact that we have said a small number of settlers can remain? What about the fact that we allow TCs to have free healthcare, to work in the RoC and claim their properties if they live in the RoC. We also give you passports and IDs. We allowed you to cross the checkpoint unhindered for your "celebrations" and you do not return the favour. The GCs have done plenty for a solution. Now can you tell me what comprimises you have made? Unless you drop your maximalist demands, we will keep you in isolation. Crime doesn't pay VP. You will learn this eventually.

VP wrote:

What you do not realize is that will never happen, although the TRNC is not perfect and many countries arent we would continue as we are than "trust" GCs with our future ever again unless a structure is agreed that will address our fears and concerns,

The "TRNC" is not a country VP, it is an illegally administered occupied area. No country is perfect, but I think most would prefer their problems to yours. If you want to continue as you are, rather than trust, co-operate, prosper and grow, then this is your choice. Just don't come moaning to us that you are being kept isolated. And don't blame us when we have designs on how to get our land back. We have tried to alleviate your concerns, but as I said earlier, you want more and more. You basically want a third of Cyprus to become Turkish. We will never accept this.

VP wrote:

this works both ways and I have no problems with your not wanting the settlers or right to return but when you want to wipe out my security then I start to believe that you have ulterior motives.

I have no intention of wiping out your security. TCs have just as much right to be secure as GCs. And GCs would not be secure under the spectre of Turkey. We have learnt that lesson too well in the past. Hence, we need a guarantor that will act humanely for the benefit of all of Cyprus, hence we say the EU. Otherwise, we feel that you have ulterior motives.

VP wrote:

TCs will only agree to get rid of the Turkeys security agreements over time and has trust and understanding is built up. What happens if we agree to doing away with Turkeys security and classes flare up again with the police force unable to cope or taking the GC side, we are to put it mildly fucked. So no sane TCs will take that step on day 1 in 5 10 years time and with a sincere show of cooperation and goodwill the need for such an agreement will no longer be relevant.

What about if TCs try to bomb their own people, then others assume it was GCs, the shit starts all over again and F-16s are killing innocent women and children, and this time Turkey ethnically cleanses 50% of Cyprus, and starts demanding that GCs accept a 70:30 solution in favour of TCs. You might think I'm joking but nothing would surprise me with Turkey. That way we would be mildly fucked. No sane GCs would agree to this. How could you even dream that we would accept Turkey to be a guarantor after this? What about you also gaining the trust back of the GCs? By demanding Turkey as a guarantor again, it makes us think you have ulterior motives. If the TCs were attacked, Turkey would intervene anyway. This is obvious. But we do not want to give them a green light to interfere in Cyprus' independence any way it sees fit, which is what guarantor status effectively gives them. Like I said VP, it is proper independence this time. An agreement could even be reached where an EU Combat Group could be deployed to Cyprus in the even of any trouble, along with UN Peacekeepers. The threat of being suspended from the EU would be enough to quell any violence in any event.

VP wrote:

Yes you are right I much prefer the current status quo to being forced to live in a GC state run by GCs for GCs as a minority. Its not the surgeons knife (democracy) we are afraid of but the surgeon himself (the GC administration/majority).

You prefer what you have now because you have stolen far more than what you deserve and have escaped the justice of democracy thus far. This is obvious. Ask a thief if he wants to return the cash he has stolen from a bank that he thinks he has got away with, and he will obviously say no. But once he gets caught, he would gladly give it back to secure his freedom. I fear for TCs, by the time they realise this is will be too late.

[Viewpoint]

Simon this time I feel I have to show you the courtesy of replying seeing that you have posted a detailed reply, what good it will do we all see..

VP, you claim that I have made up my mind, when I am in fact far more flexible than you are. You have not made any compromises whatsover, and you never will, because you are intent on keeping the spoils of war, unless the GCs capitulate to all your demands. It is you who refuses to see the other side's point of view. You refuse to accept the damage Turkey has done to the GCs, and you refuse to accept that we do not trust Turkey one iota. You constantly refer to how much you don't trust us, but trust is a two-way street, how much trust are you forging right now with GCs? With the debacle of the pilgrimage amongst many other things? With insisting Turkey can have more rights on Cyprus? You just can't see it can you.

You obviously do not know me well, the fact that we debate and that I support the freedom of movement, the right of refugees to their properties, the reduction of settlers and the removal of all military presence may shock you, but these minor details have obviously gone over your head because you have some preconceived idea of me. TCs have learned their lesson the hard way and just as you mistrust Turkey we have the same mindset against the GCs the people we are supposed to call our brothers, Turkey will go but its you we have to live with, theres a big difference. When I look at it from your angle you have every right to have you concerns about Turkey addressed and of course without question I accept 100% that GCs security should be guaranteed by whom ever they choose but why do you deny me the same right? So in reality the side being inflexible and trying to brush aside the concerns of the other side is in fact yours.

So what was us agreeing to a BBF then? What us agreeing to give you a disproportionate say in a power-sharing deal? What about the fact that we have said a small number of settlers can remain? What about the fact that we allow TCs to have free healthcare, to work in the RoC and claim their properties if they live in the RoC. We also give you passports and IDs. We allowed you to cross the checkpoint unhindered for your "celebrations" and you do not return the favour. The GCs have done plenty for a solution. Now can you tell me what comprimises you have made? Unless you drop your maximalist demands, we will keep you in isolation. Crime doesn't pay VP. You will learn this eventually.

Nothing has yet been agreed so in fact no compromise has been made in reality the fact that you give the impression you are supporting a BBF is very dubious as your interpretation is not the same as the TCs that why very little has been agreed so far and your rejection the UN supported Annan Plan.

The passports free health care for which we are very grateful for are in fact matters which you cannot refuse when you continue claim that TCs are part of the "RoC" registered citizens you cannot refuse these fundamental rights to you know this and the world knows this but if you as a GC have a desire to have these basic citizen rights removed for TCs feel free to lobby the GC administration and have them removed but be prepared for the world backlash and the support for our claim that we are in fact 2 separate states.

"Crime" only pays when its in self defence and clearly here we have a case whereby the circumstancies are very dubious and why the world has not rushed to your aid there is obvioulsy enough evidence to show that both sides are just as guilty because we have yet yet to resolve the Cyprus issue.

The biiggest compromises for us would be to allow GCs to have a say in our future, removal of Turkish Troops and the risk of becoeming second class citizens in our own country.

The "TRNC" is not a country VP, it is an illegally administered occupied area. No country is perfect, but I think most would prefer their problems to yours. If you want to continue as you are, rather than trust, co-operate, prosper and grow, then this is your choice. Just don't come moaning to us that you are being kept isolated. And don't blame us when we have designs on how to get our land back. We have tried to alleviate your concerns, but as I said earlier, you want more and more. You basically want a third of Cyprus to become Turkish. We will never accept this.

The TRNC is a country recognized by one other major country, the fact that it is not recognized by the majority of the world does not make it go away, dignateries still have to deal with our eleceted leaders and in time without a solution the non recognition may turn into your biggest nightmare when in another 30 40 50 years time we still have no solution recognition will come. We do want a solution but not any old solution where we will capitulate to the demands of the Gcs to force TCs into minority status in a GC state where the majority will exploit their numerical advantage against us. Any new agreement must allow for a power sharing struture that will not allow GCs to bypass the TCs on matters which are more sensative to the TC state and vice versa.

I have no intention of wiping out your security. TCs have just as much right to be secure as GCs. And GCs would not be secure under the spectre of Turkey. We have learnt that lesson too well in the past. Hence, we need a guarantor that will act humanely for the benefit of all of Cyprus, hence we say the EU. Otherwise, we feel that you have ulterior motives.

Do you have the right to choose your security, I would never deny you this right why do you deny me mine? Turkey is the only country we can trust and asking us to exchange them for the UN or EU is like asking us to sign our own death warrant please do not ask us to do this but ask for alternative measures to limit Turkeys rights for and interim period until they also enter the EU using the time to build trust and cooperaiton after which we will no longer need such guarantees.

What about if TCs try to bomb their own people, then others assume it was GCs, the shit starts all over again and F-16s are killing innocent women and children, and this time Turkey ethnically cleanses 50% of Cyprus, and starts demanding that GCs accept a 70:30 solution in favour of TCs. You might think I'm joking but nothing would surprise me with Turkey. That way we would be mildly fucked. No sane GCs would agree to this. How could you even dream that we would accept Turkey to be a guarantor after this? What about you also gaining the trust back of the GCs? By demanding Turkey as a guarantor again, it makes us think you have ulterior motives. If the TCs were attacked, Turkey would intervene anyway. This is obvious. But we do not want to give them a green light to interfere in Cyprus' independence any way it sees fit, which is what guarantor status effectively gives them. Like I said VP, it is proper independence this time. An agreement could even be reached where an EU Combat Group could be deployed to Cyprus in the even of any trouble, along with UN Peacekeepers. The threat of being suspended from the EU would be enough to quell any violence in any event.

Ask for alternative measures from the EU to address your concerns with Turkey and the possiblity of her exploiting her rightsto the determent of GCs. The EU and UN are useless in times of crisis, they have proven this time and time again, you are asking us to sign our own death warrant which we will never do, we need time to adjust as Turkey has been our only ally for many years we cannot breakaway on day 1 but over time as confidence and trust builds we will remove the guarantees together.

You prefer what you have now because you have stolen far more than what you deserve and have escaped the justice of democracy thus far. This is obvious. Ask a thief if he wants to return the cash he has stolen from a bank that he thinks he has got away with, and he will obviously say no. But once he gets caught, he would gladly give it back to secure his freedom. I fear for TCs, by the time they realise this is will be too late.

how can you steal what already belongs to you, individual rights will one day be returned but you have no right to exploit and use Cyprus for the benfit of solely Gcs we to have right to use this land and to live peacefully and prosper. You seem to confuse individula rights with the rights of people to country where they are not placed in danger discriminated against or exploited.

[Simon]

VP wrote:

You obviously do not know me well, the fact that we debate and that I support the freedom of movement, the right of refugees to their properties, the reduction of settlers and the removal of all military presence may shock you, but these minor details have obviously gone over your head because you have some preconceived idea of me. TCs have learned their lesson the hard way and just as you mistrust Turkey we have the same mindset against the GCs the people we are supposed to call our brothers, Turkey will go but its you we have to live with, theres a big difference. When I look at it from your angle you have every right to have you concerns about Turkey addressed and of course without question I accept 100% that GCs security should be guaranteed by whom ever they choose but why do you deny me the same right? So in reality the side being inflexible and trying to brush aside the concerns of the other side is in fact yours.

VP, the idea I have of you is one built over years of reading your posts. If you are now saying you support all of the above, then are you saying that your only concern is Turkey's guarantee? You say that GCs have every right to have their concerns about Turkey addressed, but you are not addressing them. You are simply demanding, and then you state that we are inflexible. We are not denying you your right to security. But we want to ensure our independence this time away from anachronistic guarantees that are no longer necessary. Your safeguards are written into law, just like everybody elses.

VP wrote:

Nothing has yet been agreed so in fact no compromise has been made in reality the fact that you give the impression you are supporting a BBF is very dubious as your interpretation is not the same as the TCs that why very little has been agreed so far and your rejection the UN supported Annan Plan.

VP, we have stated that we will accept a BBF. This is a clear compromise. The only reason nothing has been agreed is because you do not want a federation, you want a confederation with a very weak central government. Essentially you want two separate nations held together by the most tenuous of bonds. You mention the AP, but you just told me you would agree for free movement of people, and yet the Annan Plan did not even allow for this! The AP was not a federation VP! It was far too heavily weighted for the TCs, hence such an overwhelming majority of GCs rejected it.

VP wrote:

The passports free health care for which we are very grateful for are in fact matters which you cannot refuse when you continue claim that TCs are part of the "RoC" registered citizens you cannot refuse these fundamental rights to you know this and the world knows this but if you as a GC have a desire to have these basic citizen rights removed for TCs feel free to lobby the GC administration and have them removed but be prepared for the world backlash and the support for our claim that we are in fact 2 separate states.

The RoC could in fact suspend its citizenship rights for any citizen who is committing acts of treason. It is very easy to argue that this is exactly what many TCs are doing. However, I would not advocate this because it would destroy any goodwill, but I'm just pointing out to you that the GCs have in fact embarked upon many measures of goodwill for the TCs and are trying to give the TCs many incentives to return to the RoC and reject illegality.

VP wrote:

"Crime" only pays when its in self defence and clearly here we have a case whereby the circumstancies are very dubious and why the world has not rushed to your aid there is obvioulsy enough evidence to show that both sides are just as guilty because we have yet yet to resolve the Cyprus issue.

Both sides are guilty VP, so how does this give you the right to ethnically cleanse the indigenous population and steal their property? This is where you are criminals, and the world has recognised this by not recognising the "TRNC" and stating that the property rights of GCs have not been extinguished in the north. The world has certainly not rushed to your aid because it can see you are guilty. The UN has confirmed this by calling for Turkish troops to withdraw more than once, and declaring the "TRNC" as legally invalid.

VP wrote:

The biiggest compromises for us would be to allow GCs to have a say in our future, removal of Turkish Troops and the risk of becoeming second class citizens in our own country.

These aren't compromises VP. This is accepting that you are under the law like everybody else. GCs are the legal majority all over Cyprus, so you cannot deny them a say in the island's future. Turkish troops have no right to be here (except those allowed under the 1960 Agreements). And you will not be second class citizens, you will have as much right as anybody else. So what you are saying VP, is that your compromise is accepting the law. Well I'm sorry VP, this this is not a compromise as in the long run, you have no choice!

VP wrote:

The TRNC is a country recognized by one other major country, the fact that it is not recognized by the majority of the world does not make it go away, dignateries still have to deal with our eleceted leaders and in time without a solution the non recognition may turn into your biggest nightmare when in another 30 40 50 years time we still have no solution recognition will come. We do want a solution but not any old solution where we will capitulate to the demands of the Gcs to force TCs into minority status in a GC state where the majority will exploit their numerical advantage against us. Any new agreement must allow for a power sharing struture that will not allow GCs to bypass the TCs on matters which are more sensative to the TC state and vice versa.

The "TRNC" is recognised only by the country that helped create it. The fact that it is not recognised by the world proves that the law is on our side. Recognition will not come for you because your "state" has already been declared as invalid. Your only option is to negotiate a solution. This is going to require Talat and Turkey to allow Talat to be far more flexible than he is being. As far as I'm aware, the TCs will have some kind of veto, so I fail to see how GCs can dominate you, which is something you keep repeating. The biggest issues are properties, settlers and guarantees. This is where TCs need to show some flexibility and accept the rule of law.

VP wrote:

Do you have the right to choose your security, I would never deny you this right why do you deny me mine? Turkey is the only country we can trust and asking us to exchange them for the UN or EU is like asking us to sign our own death warrant please do not ask us to do this but ask for alternative measures to limit Turkeys rights for and interim period until they also enter the EU using the time to build trust and cooperaiton after which we will no longer need such guarantees.

What if Turkey never joins the EU? What if France, Germany and the Netherlands refuses? You will not be signing your own death warrant VP because nobody is out to kill you. We do not want to deny you security, but we also do not want you to deny ours, by inviting a killing machine like Turkey back to Cyprus. This is why we say that if you insist on a guarantee, (I would be happy without one entirely) let's make it a neutral one which can protect all Cypriots, not one which could cause untold destruction to Cyprus once more.

I personally could only accept Turkey to be a guarantor if it could ONLY act in unison with Britain and Greece, or the EU and UN. The GCs could never agree to giving Turkey the power to act unilaterally again. Even then, any powers must only be temporary. This way, the GCs will not be slaughtered like last time.


VP wrote:

Ask for alternative measures from the EU to address your concerns with Turkey and the possiblity of her exploiting her rightsto the determent of GCs. The EU and UN are useless in times of crisis, they have proven this time and time again, you are asking us to sign our own death warrant which we will never do, we need time to adjust as Turkey has been our only ally for many years we cannot breakaway on day 1 but over time as confidence and trust builds we will remove the guarantees together.

You are contradicting yourself. You say we should ask the EU for alternative measures against the Turkish threat, but then in the same breath you state that the EU is useless. The only alternative measure I can see is allowing Turkey to intervene only with the EU's permission, and with Turkey acting in unison with the EU. After say 10 years, Turkey's rights shall expire. This is the type of thing that I could personally accept. This should be more than enough time to enable you to build up your trust for the GCs.

VP wrote:

how can you steal what already belongs to you, individual rights will one day be returned but you have no right to exploit and use Cyprus for the benfit of solely Gcs we to have right to use this land and to live peacefully and prosper. You seem to confuse individula rights with the rights of people to country where they are not placed in danger discriminated against or exploited.

VP, the north of Cyprus does not belong to you, this is the point. No part of Cyprus belongs exclusively to TCs. This is something you fail to understand. This is why you are currently acting like thieves, selling property to corrupt Brits that isn't yours to sell. We cannot exploit our own island VP, GCs only want what is best for Cyprus now. Like I said before, if GCs and TCs put Cyprus first, there is no reason for conflict. As a people, you have the right to live in Cyprus peacefully, just as the GCs do, and once you return to legality, I am sure this could be achieved, just as many TCs live in the south peacefully today.

[Kikapu]

Turkeys rights for and interim period until they also enter the EU using the time to build trust and cooperaiton after which we will no longer need such guarantees.

VP, in all seriousness, because you have repeated this statement many times before and I'm having a hard time to really understand it.

Why is the EU security guarantees are not good enough for the TCs if Turkey is not a EU member, but all is OK, if Turkey was a EU member.?? What would Turkey do as a EU member unilaterally, if the rest of the EU is not willing to act to protect the TCs as you suspect in time of crises, if Turkey was not a EU member.? In another words, if the EU did not act to help the TCs in time of need before Turkey is a EU member, they are not going to act to protect the TCs, if Turkey was a EU member, are they.? How could Turkey then do anything as a EU member unilaterally to help the TCs.??? Do you expect Turkey to go against the wishes of the EU and if that is the answer, then why would the EU will ever want Turkey as a renegade EU member.??

Also, a unified Cyprus will be one country with two Federal states, lets say like the US, so how can Turkey be a guarantor to the north state if the south state does not want them, because it is still one country, is it not.? How do you get around this problem, because in effect, Turkey will have the right to intervene/invade in any part of Cyprus if they wanted as she sees fit, because the country of Cyprus gave that OK to do so, just like in 1960, because Turkey never had the right to ONLY help the TCs, but to help restore the government of Cyprus in time of crisis for all Cypriots, and since in 1974 Turkey did not live up to her responsibilities as a guarantor, and in fact violated all of her responsibilities, how do you expect the GCs to ever agree for Turkey to be a guarantor for any part of Cyprus, because as the saying goes, there is no such thing as being a little pregnant and in the same way, Turkey cannot just be guarantor to only one part of Cyprus and not the rest. This will be impossible to draft an agreement where every inch of Cyprus will be under the Federal Government, which Turkey will violate it's sovereignty if they ever came to Cyprus again under any reason. Just where do you draw the line as to when Turkey can and cannot come if she were to be a guarantor. Only after 1 TC is killed by a revenge seeking GC husband, after 10 TCs killed at a football game riots.? When exactly.??

[Viewpoint]

Turkeys rights for and interim period until they also enter the EU using the time to build trust and cooperaiton after which we will no longer need such guarantees.

VP, in all seriousness, because you have repeated this statement many times before and I'm having a hard time to really understand it.

Why is the EU security guarantees are not good enough for the TCs if Turkey is not a EU member, but all is OK, if Turkey was a EU member.?? What would Turkey do as a EU member unilaterally, if the rest of the EU is not willing to act to protect the TCs as you suspect in time of crises, if Turkey was not a EU member.? In another words, if the EU did not act to help the TCs in time of need before Turkey is a EU member, they are not going to act to protect the TCs, if Turkey was a EU member, are they.? How could Turkey then do anything as a EU member unilaterally to help the TCs.??? Do you expect Turkey to go against the wishes of the EU and if that is the answer, then why would the EU will ever want Turkey as a renegade EU member.??

Also, a unified Cyprus will be one country with two Federal states, lets say like the US, so how can Turkey be a guarantor to the north state if the south state does not want them, because it is still one country, is it not.? How do you get around this problem, because in effect, Turkey will have the right to intervene/invade in any part of Cyprus if they wanted as she sees fit, because the country of Cyprus gave that OK to do so, just like in 1960, because Turkey never had the right to ONLY help the TCs, but to help restore the government of Cyprus in time of crisis for all Cypriots, and since in 1974 Turkey did not live up to her responsibilities as a guarantor, and in fact violated all of her responsibilities, how do you expect the GCs to ever agree for Turkey to be a guarantor for any part of Cyprus, because as the saying goes, there is no such thing as being a little pregnant and in the same way, Turkey cannot just be guarantor to only one part of Cyprus and not the rest. This will be impossible to draft an agreement where every inch of Cyprus will be under the Federal Government, which Turkey will violate it's sovereignty if they ever came to Cyprus again under any reason. Just where do you draw the line as to when Turkey can and cannot come if she were to be a guarantor. Only after 1 TC is killed by a revenge seeking GC husband, after 10 TCs killed at a football game riots.? When exactly.??

Its OK for the GCs to have Greece in the EU to support their everymove but not us? why is that? Turkey outside of the EU can move in times of need she is not bound to what the EU demands...when she is in the EU as a full member the 2nd largest she will have the clout to stop any problems that may arise in a united Cyprus, the EU without Turkeys influence is no security at all.

[Nikitas]

VP obviously does not understand how the EU works. For the EU each country is a unit. There is no one in the EU pushing for the interests of individual German federal states. In the EU there is only ONE Germany, as there is only ONE Belgium, and ONE Spain with autonomous regions and ONE United Kingdom and no reps for Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland.

A no guarantee solution would not prevent Turkey from sending its air force to bomb the GCs if there was an onslaught against the TCs. Please do not anyone say that Turkey would feel inhibited in doing this, they weren't back in 1964 nor in 1974. So the guarantee thing is something else entirely.

But there is a silver lining to this cloud as in most. Insisting on guarantees and the international status as decreed in the 1960 agreements shows that even Turkey understands the impossibility of virgin birth and practically rejects it. Turkey wants what the RoC wants, an evolution of the present state, even if it does not recognise it, into a Federation. So much for Talat's idea of virgin births.

[Viewpoint]

VP obviously does not understand how the EU works. For the EU each country is a unit. There is no one in the EU pushing for the interests of individual German federal states. In the EU there is only ONE Germany, as there is only ONE Belgium, and ONE Spain with autonomous regions and ONE United Kingdom and no reps for Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland.

A no guarantee solution would not prevent Turkey from sending its air force to bomb the GCs if there was an onslaught against the TCs. Please do not anyone say that Turkey would feel inhibited in doing this, they weren't back in 1964 nor in 1974. So the guarantee thing is something else entirely.

But there is a silver lining to this cloud as in most. Insisting on guarantees and the international status as decreed in the 1960 agreements shows that even Turkey understands the impossibility of virgin birth and practically rejects it. Turkey wants what the RoC wants, an evolution of the present state, even if it does not recognise it, into a Federation. So much for Talat's idea of virgin births.

You dont obviously understand how the EU works, if Turkey were to stay outside of the EU and us inside in any moment of crisis she would in fact be intervening in an EU member state and therefore the EU, who would then act as a block in defence of the GCs, this was one of the goals of the GCs when they decided to join the EU thats basically why you want to rid yourselves of the Turkish security guarantee. If Turkey has an agreement that she can take action when necessary and the EU as a block cannot do anything about it. With regards to other member state support it would be very easy for you to drum up support against the TC member state making the EU do you dirty business for you to dismiss any problems we were facing internally, we to need an ally that will counter balance any shinangens you Gcs may try to get up to.

You can still have a virgin birth with security guarantees.

[Nikitas]

VP you realise we are talking about federal states with defined territory, a great deal of autonomy and therefore no excuse for anyone to encroach on the other's area or inner dealings. BOth communities will share the EU civil service positions so there is no chance the GCs could outmanouver the TCs in the EU.

As to the EU turning a blind eye to wrongdoings by any state, there is the precedent of the fascist elected in Austria. The EU essentially put Austria on ice till he got out. The EU does not give any member a blank check.