Viewpoint wrote:Simon wrote:SimonTCs have the same rights as every other Cypriot citizen, no more. Of course this means you have the right to be safe, just like GCs do, this is what the law is for, along with EU safeguards. It does not mean that you can take a piece of Cyprus and call it Turkish, declare an "independent state" on stolen land, import thousands of settlers to alter the demographics of the island, change the names of the towns, villages and roads, deny the legal occupants the right to their properties, loot churches and sell religious symbols on the black market. Remember VP, TCs have just as much blame, if not more, for the violence of the 1960s, and certainly do not deserve any more than any other Cypriot. TCs are living safe and sound in the RoC right now. They are not suffering daily attacks. You are living in the past and have not recognised how much things have changed. Guess what...GCs no longer seek enosis, there is no junta anymore, Cyprus is a member of the EU, and all of its citizens are protected by the rule of law. But I know that this is all an act VP. You are a charlatan. You make out that you are so terrified of the GCs, and put on this pretence that you are convinced GCs are blood hungry and just waiting to wipe out the TCs as soon as they get the chance, hence you need all this protection in a prison "state", but deep down you know what incredulous rubbish this is. It is simply a cover for your true feelings. The truth VP is that you are a racist. It is clear to anybody who lifts the veil of every one of your posts. You are about scaremongering; trying to convince TCs never to trust GCs under any circumstances, unless GCs agree to gift a third of the island to Turkey. You are a racist nationalist who can't stand the thought of TCs living peacefully with GCs. This is why you questioned The Cypriot on this very point in another thread. The very fact that TCs and GCs can live together peacefully breaks your heart, because it is a blow to your aims, and you try to suppress it wherever you find it, lest TCs might actually start to believe that they don't need Turkey after all.
VP wrote:I am what I am if you dont like it then thats your problem not mine.
At least you're not denying the fact that you're a charlatan and a racist. It's not my problem VP that you display two characteristics that are reviled by men. You have to live with it.
VP wrote:Your just saying all will be OK take that leap of faith is not enough there ahs to be clear guide lines, safeguards and guarantees to make both sides stick to the rules....neither side trusts the other and we feel you will try to stab us in the back at every opportunity.
VP, there will be clear guidelines and safeguards. But these will be legal safeguards that protect every citizen, and not anachronistic guarantees by foreign countries. Cyprus is in the EU now and doesn't need any nation to guarantee its independence. Time has moved on from 1960. Turkey abused its Guarantor status and has caused immense damage to Cyprus. So do you seriously believe GCs are going to make the same mistake by giving it the same power again? This is why we advocate a neutral body. The EU is the only guarantor that Cyprus needs, anything else is out of the question. This time we want proper independence.
Remember, GCs also suffered greatly, but we acknowledge that we have to trust the TCs again in order to reach a solution. Otherwise, what is the point in negotiating? TCs need to also understand this. If you have no goodwill towards us, then negotiations are pointless, because you cannot agree anything with someone you have no faith in. Perhaps this is why you couldn't even allow a pilgrimage? This is why I say that the TCs have never been interested in negotiations and compromise, but simply GC capitulation. It was a massive compromise for us to accept a BBF. We did it to make TCs trust us more and feel more secure, but still you refuse to meet us half way. You just keep demanding more and more, and refuse to budge until you have everything you want. All the time, you blackmail us, by holding our land hostage, and goad us by placing a massive flag near the Green Line just so we can see, and then you claim that you can't trust us!
Explain to me please how you think we will stab you in the back? If TCs allegiance is to Cyprus, GCs allegiance is to Cyprus, then we share exactly the same interests, and there is no need for either of us to stab anyone in the back. Of course, if it is your intention to do Turkey's work in Cyprus, then problems will once more arise. But you need to understand that enosis is long dead; so if Taksim dies, we no longer have a reason to fight. You see VP we have moved on, when will you?
VP wrote:We are 110% certain you will exploit your numerical advanatage to our determent and push us to one side with no effective say in our own future, this we can never accept and need safeguards that will never allow you the opportunity.
This is why we compromised and agreed to a BBF. But it is still not enough for you is it? You want a state that is held together by a string. Sorry, but we prefer the situation now where we are the only recognised legal governors of Cyprus.
VP wrote:As for living together I have no problem with that but people on both sides of the divide have to be given the option to decide themselves where they wish to live either in the North state under TC administration or the South state under GC administration you cannot force ones rule on the other sooner or later it will collapse.
Sorry, but first and foremost the law takes precedent. TCs can't decide to ignore the law when it suits them. An agreement must be reached where all legal owners of properties have the option to return to their land. If they choose compensation, fine. Otherwise, if you want two ethnically pure states, then the Turkish Cypriot state can be no larger than 18%, and GCs who cannot return to their properties in the 18% can either be compensated with TC properties or with monetary compensation.
Simon wrote:VP, TCs started the violence in the 1960s. Stop pretending that TCs were somehow innocent bystanders that bloodthirsty GCs just decided to wipe out one day. TCs were just as eager to destroy the 1960 Constitution as the GCs were. And that's even with the 1960 Constitution clearly weighted in your favour. The "TRNC" is a heaven for you because it is what you always wanted, a racist partition where you can gain on others' losses and create an ethnically pure Turkish state. But we will never allow this to be legally accepted. It might feel safe for you to live there at the moment, but just remember, there are a lot of people that are just waiting for the opportunity to overturn the status quo, not because you are Turkish Cypriots and we are Greek Cypriots, but because you are thieves and legality and justice must be served.
VP wrote:We have been over this many times and we can agree to disagee, all we know becuase we have survived no thanks to GCs to live in peace for 35 years, in comparison we were out numbered discriminated and persecuted in a so called united cyprus where the majority abused their rights to the determent of TCs. The TRNC will always be a monument to your own mistakes and continued arrogance to have the vision or capacity to reunite this island taking into account that it will be under a BBF with poitical equality of the 2 states. We are partners and not just some minority your own constitution tells you so yet you choose to ignore it at your own loss.
There is nothing to disagree about. The TCs were the instigators of much of the violence. They wanted to destroy the 1960 Constitution and execute a partition. Therefore, the inter-communal violence was not the attempted massacre of TCs by GCs, but it was inter-communal violence, i.e. both communities fighting each other. The TCs were just as much to blame, if not more so. If you were so worried about being outnumbered, you shouldn't have been so stupid as to attack the majority community. You brought much of the trouble onto yourselves.
The "TRNC" is a monument to racism, nothing more. The only mistake we made was falling into your trap, enabling you to create this pseudo-state on stolen land.
You are a numeric minority which was given disproportional rights due to the intervention of outside powers. But even this is not enough for you anymore, so we seek to give you more, via a BBF. But even this is not enough. You now want a loose confederation, and to excuse all the illegalities of Turkey's actions. Well sorry VP, but we must draw a line somewhere. For me, agreeing to a BBF was a mistake, but there you have it. Give you an inch, and you take a mile.
Simon wrote:No, you are arrogant because you believe due to the fact that Turkey is militarily stronger than Cyprus, that you can bring any terms to the negotiation table that suits you, and unless we simply capitulate, Cyprus will remain forever divided. This is the type of rigid, uncomprimising attitude that will eventually be your downfall. VP, I cannot reduce or increase your community. I can only relay the facts to you. The fact is that the TCs are a minority. They are a minority just like any other minority in the world. You are no different to anybody else. As long as all individual rights are safeguarded and Cyprus has anti-discrimination laws (which it does) then you shouldn't have a problem. A community of 18% should not be able to dictate to the other 82%. It is undemocratic and unworkable.
VP wrote:Now the shoe is on the other foot you call it arrogance ut when you were in the same position 35 years ago you called it your right, the fact you have to deal with is that you must try to comprehend that whats on the table is a BBF of 2 states with a political balance that will never allow you the right to turn us into just another minority and protect our right for a say in our own future and security, If as you ay all these things are provided for by the "roc" and the EU then why do you oppose them so much and will not commit to them again? what are you afraid of can you not trust yourselves or do you really have ulterior motives as we always suspect.
VP, this is the point, a BBF is not enough for you. You practically want an ethnically pure Turkish Cypriot state with high degrees of autonomy, and a weak central government. This is a BBC (and no I'm not referring to the British broadcaster) not a BBF. You want to limit the freedom of movement, and the right to settle anywhere in the country. This is contrary to EU law and is not a Federation in anyone's language. You want to allow tens of thousands of illegal settlers to remain, altering the demographics of the island. You want a Turkish guarantee, even after all the suffering Turkey has inflicted on the GCs. These are things we cannot accept, and you need to make a few compromises and goodwill gestures for a change if you ever want your isolation to end.
Thank you for taking the time to respond in detail but your analysis is riddled with issues we can argue back and forth forever and still not agree anything, this is the chasm I always refer to it is to wde to bridge because you have no intention of accepting compromise which will address our concerns and vice versa isnt this the main reason why we cannot agree a solution and the status quo will remain for many years to come.
I believe that the GCs have done everything they can to compromise and address your concerns, but the TCs will not meet them half-way, so the GCs are reluctant to give away any more. Can you blame them? The chasm is too wide because you want everything your own way. Deep down VP you know this is true, this is why you haven't challenged my post. As long as this attitude remains, then yes, the status quo will remain. But I get the feeling that you're quite happy with that anyway.
Greek Cypriots have been here since 1200BC!
