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Turkey Will Continue To Support Turkish Cypriots

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Tim Drayton » Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:30 pm

zan wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
hasanaggi wrote:Kikapu

just so that ive got this right.

i dont want to re-read eight pages of posts

are you suggesting that the mother and her children were not murdered in the bath?

I haven't followed the thread but a bullet striking the glass tub would smash it to pieces. They were definitely moved there and piled up by someone.


They were moved GR. It was documented. I can't remember where I read it now but the photographer confessed to this. I use the word "confessed" because that is the way you guys like to look at these things. :wink: Of course taking a picture of a pile of washing that the children where hidden harder would have made a much better picture... :roll: Perhaps a picture of a patch of ground would prove there are people still buried under there :roll:

(I have not read the thread either so sorry if I have gone over the same stuff)


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Postby Tim Drayton » Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:41 pm

hasanaggi wrote:Kikapu

just so that ive got this right.

i dont want to re-read eight pages of posts

are you suggesting that the mother and her children were not murdered in the bath?


The cold-blooded murder of children is the most heinous act that I can imagine, and it is difficult for those who question the precise circumstances of this event because it appears as though they are trying in some way to condone or excuse this act of barbarism.

However, in a purely objective spirit and attempt to get at the truth, I would like to ask the following question, based on these two premises:

1- Porcelain shatters when hit by a bullet (see the picture I posted on page 6 of this thread).

2- I have visited the Museum of Barbarism in Kumsal and as far as I can see from peering at the buthtub through the glass, it is made of porcelain.

If the children were shot in the bathtub, why is the porcelain intact?

Personally, I also find the idea of picking up dead children and moving them into a bathtub to make a nice propaganda photograph to be quite sick. Obviously in a totally different league from the act of murdering children, but sick nevertheless.
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Postby YFred » Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:50 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:
hasanaggi wrote:Kikapu

just so that ive got this right.

i dont want to re-read eight pages of posts

are you suggesting that the mother and her children were not murdered in the bath?


The cold-blooded murder of children is the most heinous act that I can imagine, and it is difficult for those who question the precise circumstances of this event because it appears as though they are trying in some way to condone or excuse this act of barbarism.

However, in a purely objective spirit and attempt to get at the truth, I would like to ask the following question, based on these two premises:

1- Porcelain shatters when hit by a bullet (see the picture I posted on page 6 of this thread).

2- I have visited the Museum of Barbarism in Kumsal and as far as I can see from peering at the buthtub through the glass, it is made of porcelain.

If the children were shot in the bathtub, why is the porcelain intact?

Personally, I also find the idea of picking up dead children and moving them into a bathtub to make a nice propaganda photograph to be quite sick. Obviously in a totally different league from the act of murdering children, but sick nevertheless.


Was there ever any police report for this crime scene? to give an idea as to what really happened?
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Postby zan » Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:11 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:
hasanaggi wrote:Kikapu

just so that ive got this right.

i dont want to re-read eight pages of posts

are you suggesting that the mother and her children were not murdered in the bath?


The cold-blooded murder of children is the most heinous act that I can imagine, and it is difficult for those who question the precise circumstances of this event because it appears as though they are trying in some way to condone or excuse this act of barbarism.

However, in a purely objective spirit and attempt to get at the truth, I would like to ask the following question, based on these two premises:

1- Porcelain shatters when hit by a bullet (see the picture I posted on page 6 of this thread).

2- I have visited the Museum of Barbarism in Kumsal and as far as I can see from peering at the buthtub through the glass, it is made of porcelain.

If the children were shot in the bathtub, why is the porcelain intact?

Personally, I also find the idea of picking up dead children and moving them into a bathtub to make a nice propaganda photograph to be quite sick. Obviously in a totally different league from the act of murdering children, but sick nevertheless.


Hi Tim!!!!

The story through my life is that they were in the bathroom under a pile of washing. My mum tells me that this is how she tried to protect us on the night in question as well. Perhaps a TC Meme at the time :? (Oracles favourite subject matter) They were moved into the bath for the picture. Murdered? YES! Used as propaganda? Almost certainly. Almost certainly done in all propaganda wars also. I see no difference in moving them to be photographed as those bodies taken out of the ground and photographed. God rest their souls.
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Postby Tim Drayton » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:43 pm

zan wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:
hasanaggi wrote:Kikapu

just so that ive got this right.

i dont want to re-read eight pages of posts

are you suggesting that the mother and her children were not murdered in the bath?


The cold-blooded murder of children is the most heinous act that I can imagine, and it is difficult for those who question the precise circumstances of this event because it appears as though they are trying in some way to condone or excuse this act of barbarism.

However, in a purely objective spirit and attempt to get at the truth, I would like to ask the following question, based on these two premises:

1- Porcelain shatters when hit by a bullet (see the picture I posted on page 6 of this thread).

2- I have visited the Museum of Barbarism in Kumsal and as far as I can see from peering at the buthtub through the glass, it is made of porcelain.

If the children were shot in the bathtub, why is the porcelain intact?

Personally, I also find the idea of picking up dead children and moving them into a bathtub to make a nice propaganda photograph to be quite sick. Obviously in a totally different league from the act of murdering children, but sick nevertheless.


Hi Tim!!!!

The story through my life is that they were in the bathroom under a pile of washing. My mum tells me that this is how she tried to protect us on the night in question as well. Perhaps a TC Meme at the time :? (Oracles favourite subject matter) They were moved into the bath for the picture. Murdered? YES! Used as propaganda? Almost certainly. Almost certainly done in all propaganda wars also. I see no difference in moving them to be photographed as those bodies taken out of the ground and photographed. God rest their souls.


Amen.
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Postby denizaksulu » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:47 pm

This article may refresh some TCs memory.
Especially Hassanagi who may know Erdogan Mirata, the dentist who took the picture. He was born in Kophinou , the son of Behcet Mirata.

http://www.kibrisgazetesi.com/index.php ... /Ana_sayfa






TMT'cinin Kumsal katliamıyla ilgili naklettikleri...
Ahmet Tolgay


Yazarın tüm yazılarını görüntüle


5 Mart 2007, Pazartesi Yorum Yaz Yazdır Arkadaşına Gönder


"23 Aralık 1963 gecesi Kanlıdere istikametinden gelen silahlı grupların Kumsal bölgesini bastıkları ve karşılarına çıkan ilk eve girip katliam yaptıkları, daha sonra da kadınlı-erkekli ve çocuklu büyük bir Türk grubunu silah tehdidiyle yanlarına alıp Rum bölgesine çekildikleri istihbar edilmişti. 21 Aralık gecesinden beri vur-kaç şeklinde sürmekte olan toplumlararası çatışmalar yavaş yavaş cephe çarpışmasına intikal ediyordu. Katliamın yapıldığı ev Kıbrıs Türk Kuvvetleri Alayında görevli Dr. Binbaşı Nihat İlhan'ın eviydi. Katliam bilgisi alınır alınmaz, Rum ve Yunan silahlarının bölgede mevzilenmiş oldukları bilinmesine rağmen, durum tespiti için TMT'nin üst düzeydeki iki görevlisi sabahın erken saatlerinde olay yerine gönderildi. Yaşları ilerlemiş olmasına rağmen her iki görevli de halen hayatta ve sağlıklı durumdadır. Evin içinde yaralı olarak yanında küçük kızıyla birlikte yatmakta olan kadın TMT görevlilerinden birine iniltiler arasında "Bakın bize neler yaptılar. Benim evim karşı tarafta. Yastığın altında bir silah var. Silahı alınız ve bunları bize yapan o Rumlardan intikamımızı alınız." Dedi. Aynı kadın 25 Aralık'ta kendisini Adiloğlu Kliniği'nde tedavi eden Dr. Ayten Berkalp'e konuşurken de aynı şeyleri söyledi. Ankara'ya gönderilen ve kendisine protez kol takılan kadın da halen hayattadır.

Banyo katliamının ilk fotoğrafları TMT tarafından çekildi. Bu fotoğraflar basına dağıtılmak üzere daha sonra yine TMT tarafından basın görevlilerine çektirilen fotoğraflardan çok farklıdır. Hiçbir zaman kamuoyuna sunulmayan ilk amatör fotoğraflar hep gizli dosyada tutuldu. Halen herkesin bilgisinde olan o meşhur fotoğraftaki görüntü cesetlerin ellenmesinden sonra ortaya çıkan görüntüdür. İlk fotoğraflarda görülebilen tek yüz en küçük çocuğun yüzüdür. Mizanseni hazırlayan, ki o kişi büyük ihtimalle ünlü gazeteci Ömer Sami Coşar'dır; manzaranın daha etkili bir hal alması düşüncesindeydi. Diğer fotoğrafları çekmek için daha sonra "Foto Basın" olarak bilinen Mustafa Bey'in Memduh Erdal eşliğinde olay yerine gönderildiği doğrudur. Neden Memduh Erdal verilmişti yanına? Çünkü Erdal'ın kayınpederinin evi oralardaydı ve bölgeyi çok iyi bilirdi. Hazırladıkları AKRİTAS Planı uyarınca Rum ve Yunanlılar bölgedeki katliamı sürdüreceklerdi. (Herkesin bir kez daha bu menhus planı okuyup değerlendirmesi tavsiye edilir.) Erdoğan Rifat, av tüfeğiyle ateş etmeye başlayınca Türk mücahitlerin bölgede mevzilenmeye başladıkları düşüncesine kapıldılar. Erdoğan'ın av tüfeğiyle defaatle ateş açtığı bilinmektedir. Yaylım ateşle öldürülmeden önce Erdoğan Rıfat katliamcılardan birini ağır yaraladı. Hayatta olan ve Şehit Aileleri Derneği'nde görevli bulunan merhum Erdoğan'ın eşi Nevin Hanım bu durumların tanığıdır. Rum ya da Yunan yaralının olay yerinden kaçırılması başarıldı ama Amerikan yapısı son model 45'lik Tomson'u ile miğferi olay yerinde kaldı. Tomson'un kemeri üzerinde "Katsonis" adı yazılıydı. Hem bu silah ve hem de olay yerinden toplanan diğer objeler diğer materyalle birlikte Türkiye'ye gitti. (Kumsal katliamıyla ilgili olarak olayı yaşayanlardan ve tanıklardan alınan ifadeler de, TMT'nin bağlı olduğu Genel Kurmay başkanlığının arşivlerine girmiştir. Olayın gerçek mahiyeti bütün çıplaklığıyla bu ifadelerdedir.) "Katsonis"in silahı ve diğer objelerin bir kısmı İstanbul'daki Askeri Müzede bulunmaktadır. Araştırmacı gazeteciler gidip orada görebilirler. Katliam gecesi bölgeden toplanarak Rum tarafına kaçırılanların çoğu hala hayattadır. Bunlar yaşananların tanığıdırlar. Katliamın TMT tarafında yapıldığı ilk defa Rum propagandacılar tarafından birkaç yıl önce Türkleri birbirine düşürmek için yapıldığında Sayın Nihat İlhan ilk ve son kez konuşarak bu iddiaları yalanlamış ve ailesini kimlerin şehit ettiğini net şekilde söylemiştir. Bilhassa çarpışmaların başladığı ilk günlerde TMT'nin kontrolü ve yönlendirmesi tamamen Türkiyeli subaylardaydı. TMT'nin içinde bu subaylardan habersiz sinek bile uçamazdı. Türkiye'nin Kıbrıs'a müdahalesini sağlamak gibi bir düşünceyle TMT'nin bu Türkiyeli subaylar tarafından öyle bir komploya alet edilmesi nasıl düşünülebilir?"

*** *** ***

(Arkadaşımız Aysu Basri Akter'in Diş Hekimi Erdoğan Mirata ile yaptığı söyleşi 44 yıl önce yaşanan Lefkoşa'daki Kumsal katliamını yeniden gündemimize taşıdı. Kaç gündür bu konu konuşulmakta.

Çoğu kişi dağarcığında olanları açıklarken, ünlü TMT'cilerden bir ağabeyimiz de belleğindekileri kağıda dökerek yayınlanmak üzere verdi bana. TMT direnişi boyunca DAL komutanı olarak çok önemli bir görevi yürüten köşemin bugünkü konuğu, şimdi başarılı iş adamlarımız arasındadır. Önemli satırlarını, adının "şimdilik saklı kalması" isteğine saygı göstererek ve teşekkürlerimle sunuyorum. Satırlar arasında olaya ilişkin yeni bazı bilgiler de dikkati çekecek nitelikte. A.T.)

Sorry, I refuse to use Google translator. If I get time..........but most of you have seen this before in translation.
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Postby denizaksulu » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:57 pm

There is an admission in this article stating that the pictures given to the press were different from the original pictures taken by the TMT.
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Postby Kikapu » Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:16 pm

Get Real! wrote:
hasanaggi wrote:Kikapu

just so that ive got this right.

i dont want to re-read eight pages of posts

are you suggesting that the mother and her children were not murdered in the bath?

I haven't followed the thread but a bullet striking the glass tub would smash it to pieces. They were definitely moved there and piled up by someone.


Actually GR and Tim, it is much simpler than that. If the family was murdered execution style in the bathtub, then there would be no damage to the porcelain bathtub or the walls, as suppose to had the repeat of St. Valentines massacre occurred with machinegun fire indiscriminately, which would have torn the place apart. The blood stains on the bathtub (and lack of it in most areas of the tub and the walls) in relationship to where the dead bodies are lying, is what gives it away as being staged for a photo, as well as on how the bodies all came to be laying all horizontal to each other rather than in a crumpling posture position that the bodies would have made upon being shot while standing, which they would have dropped like a lead weight. Had they all been summarily executed in the bathtub, I'm almost certain that, that picture would have been much more horrific than this staged one, which makes me think, that the killers were not thinking of creating that "perfect picture" for maximum shock effect at the time of the killings, but that the idea came after the fact to use the bathtub to stage this crime.!
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Postby denizaksulu » Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:04 pm

Kikapu wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
hasanaggi wrote:Kikapu

just so that ive got this right.

i dont want to re-read eight pages of posts

are you suggesting that the mother and her children were not murdered in the bath?

I haven't followed the thread but a bullet striking the glass tub would smash it to pieces. They were definitely moved there and piled up by someone.


Actually GR and Tim, it is much simpler than that. If the family was murdered execution style in the bathtub, then there would be no damage to the porcelain bathtub or the walls, as suppose to had the repeat of St. Valentines massacre occurred with machinegun fire indiscriminately, which would have torn the place apart. The blood stains on the bathtub (and lack of it in most areas of the tub and the walls) in relationship to where the dead bodies are lying, is what gives it away as being staged for a photo, as well as on how the bodies all came to be laying all horizontal to each other rather than in a crumpling posture position that the bodies would have made upon being shot while standing, which they would have dropped like a lead weight. Had they all been summarily executed in the bathtub, I'm almost certain that, that picture would have been much more horrific than this staged one, which makes me think, that the killers were not thinking of creating that "perfect picture" for maximum shock effect at the time of the killings, but that the idea came after the fact to use the bathtub to stage this crime.!



As mentioned in the link I posted, there were different versions of the photos. Ones taken by the TMT were different from the ones used by the press. One wonders where the originals are?
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Postby Oracle » Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:17 pm

I don't know the details to this ever-changing disgusting story ...

Did the TMT shoot these children for another propaganda photograph?
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