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ms

do you think that this never happened under greek authorites.

the spartans sent their kids into the mountains and told them not to come down for years.

Alexander the great massacred his own people in persia. And he didnt tax anyone cos mostly he simply kiled and looted then burnt to the ground all that he conquered. Who told you greeks never played these games, in fact as the first european culture, they invented them.

Welcome to 2005, if you still live in ancient times, we will never get anywhere.

I never said the Greeks were angels. Im not blindly in awe of Alexander the Great and know he did many many bad things. I also know that the Spartans were very brutal in their ways....but I was answering Murtaza's comment.

and anyway Murtaza, how did I show you that you were right?...and right about what?

[gladius]

There would be other countries to recognise TRNC too.

Do you think that the world did not recognise "trnc" because they love the GCs? No my friend, it is because by doing so there will be a precedent that will split their own countries into 100 pieces.Every minority in every country will declare independence and ask for recognition.Even Azerbaijan will lose it's Nakorno-Karabah region.The blacks in the USA will declare 4-5 states theirs.The Hispanics the same.Scotland the same.... There will be no end to that.The Countries of the world will increase from 120 to 1200 in just 10 years!!!
So yes, beleive me if they want to recognise "trnc" I say go ahead do it.

By the way, I support reunion, Not because for TC or GC, but for Turkey. We dont need an enemy greece. We have other issues. There is not much left at west, We should return east, Turkic Countries, and other countries, and If there is a enemy greece, It will make us vulnerable.Also It will also force us, to waste our energy at balkan issues. If we can be friend with Greece, Their support to serbs will be less.

I agree with you. In fact Greece is too different from the rest of the Europeans. I beleive they want to be friends with Turkey, because hey, if Turkey advances Greece will be the first country to benefit. However there is a problem internally in Turkey I mean the nationalists and the Army leaders want to keep Cyprus for their "prestige". Unless Turkey puts the Army under the orders of the Political leadership solving the Cyprus problem will be very difficult.

EU is just an economical power, they have not militarical power. Without supporting your politics with Army, you cannot have much think to do.

Hmm I agree partially with you.Yes EU is not a military power yet.However if you notice they actually fund the Americans to do the Military job for them and keep the "world order".The Americans have a huge external debt.Where do the own money?To Japan? No. To China? No. They owe it all to Europe!That's why the Americans want Turkey to be in Europe.Because otherwise Turkey will not be able to pay them and they will not be able to pay back their own debt to Europe!

About Nakorno Karabah this region is similar to "trnc" in Cyprus correct? They ask for recognition. So if Azerbaijan recognises "trnc" it will lose Nakorno Karabah. (I am not very well aware of this issue anyway-I might be wrong on that). If I am correct then what is your comment on that?

May I ask a personal question: Nerede oturuyorsun? (Where do you live?)

First of all: The right for self determination is a basic human right and not at all restricted by anything
Secondly: The TC are not a minority in Cyprus, they have been and still are the equal partners of the GC. It was the GC who started to kill them and to try to get them out of Cyprus
Third: It's very funny to read your continous lamentation and complaints about the current situation on the island. You should remember that it has been the GC with the famous Makarios on top and Grivas with his gunmen like your actual president who destroyed the RoC. Creating these troubles including your internal civil war you got it like a silly boy on the backside. That's all.
Fourth: My recommendation to you: Don't make anymore troubles on the island, be calm and friendly south of the Green Line because history is showing us that you are always the loosers by following your daydreams!

[Alexis]

First of all: The right for self determination is a basic human right and not at all restricted by anything

Sure, agreed, but not at the expense of other people's rights.
When espousing the turkish intervention and establishment of the TRNC as purely an exercise in self-determination think about the the consequences that this had to the right to self-determination of the 170,000 displaced GCs.

The TC are not a minority in Cyprus, they have been and still are the equal partners of the GC. It was the GC who started to kill them and to try to get them out of Cyprus

Agreed, TCs are equal partners in Cyprus and should be treated as such. They are also equal partners in Cyprus' downfall. The sooner both sides acknowledge responsibility the sooner we can move on. This should be a two-way process.

It's very funny to read your continous lamentation and complaints about the current situation on the island. You should remember that it has been the GC with the famous Makarios on top and Grivas with his gunmen like your actual president who destroyed the RoC. Creating these troubles including your internal civil war you got it like a silly boy on the backside. That's all.

Please see the previous response.

My recommendation to you: Don't make anymore troubles on the island, be calm and friendly south of the Green Line because history is showing us that you are always the loosers by following your daydreams!

Sure, being calm and friendly is important in all negotiations. Again, this needs to be reciprocated by the other side. I don't know quite what day-dreams you are referring to, but in my case one of those would be the re-unification of the island to everyone's benefit. I certainly hope that doesn't make me a loser. I also strongly believe it would make all cypriots winners.

[gladius]

...they are equal partners in Cyprus downfall.....?????

You mean because the TC were the movable targets of GC shooting exercises?

And something about daydreams: The so called Cyprus Problem: is it a problem because people on both sides of the Green Line are living in peace and freedom since 1974?
Is it a problem that GC and TC are enjoing the same democratic structures in their states?
You should bear in your mind that any correction of existing boundaries will displace again people who does not have any chance to oppose such a move.
I do agree that it is hard for some GC formerly living in the North not to be able to return but the GC-community has lost the war they were creating and that's the bill presented to them!

[Alexis]

...they are equal partners in Cyprus downfall.....?????

You mean because the TC were the movable targets of GC shooting exercises?

And of course the GC were never victimised? You know deep down it was never as simple as that.

And something about daydreams: The so called Cyprus Problem: is it a problem because people on both sides of the Green Line are living in peace and freedom since 1974?
Is it a problem that GC and TC are enjoing the same democratic structures in their states?
You should bear in your mind that any correction of existing boundaries will displace again people who does not have any chance to oppose such a move.
I do agree that it is hard for some GC formerly living in the North not to be able to return but the GC-community has lost the war they were creating and that's the bill presented to them!

Yes, people have been living in peace, but not freedom. Refugees do not have the freedom to return to their homes, and up until 2003 there was no freedom of movement in Cyprus. Even now freedom of movement is only entertained through an existing de facto boundary.
You are absolutely correct, perhaps there is no Cyprus problem, perhaps we can just agree to partition as is and move on. But imagine what that would mean. Two states which oppose each other in every way possible. We would move back to pre-2003 times where freedom of movement between the states is opposed, alongside trade and even healthcare.
Surely if only on economic grounds a united Cyprus is a better one?

The Cyprus problem is one of intercommunal coflict between two asymmetric sides, just because a militarily superior state imposed its solution to that problem to the detriment of one side, this does not mean that both people's rights to self-determination have been fulfilled.
Again, I ask, what of the displaced GC refugees, and for that matter the displaced TC refugees? Do these people not have rights?
Yes, a solution in which all refugees get the right to return will cause other problems, but at least in cases of refugees returning to occupied property the people can meet each other and come to arrangements, and of course the side which loses out can at least have the safety net of being provided for in the locality. What most GC refugees would like is the option of return, or at least the option of building a house nearby. I believe people will be willing to compromise here.[/quote]

[Anglo]

I don't think something like a highly emotive and complex situation like property exchange/compensation can be sorted out face-to-face with people on an individual basis - I couldn't think of anything more likely to bring the guns out in fact!

[Alexis]

In some cases there might be animosity.
Given the many instances of good will between refugees returning to see their homes and the present occupiers in 2003 when the Green Line was opened, I don't think it would be nearly as bad as you are saying.
Also, please remember that this is 21st Century Cyprus, not the gun-happy post independence era of 1963 Cyprus. Most Cypriots I know would abstain from going out and shooting each other. Also bear in mind the track record since 2003 in terms of inter-communal violence despite contact and exposure between the twqo communities.

[Viewpoint]

Anglo

don't think something like a highly emotive and complex situation like property exchange/compensation can be sorted out face-to-face with people on an individual basis - I couldn't think of anything more likely to bring the guns out in fact!

Have to agree with Anglo here GCs and TCs would use the right to go back and claim their old properties as amean to use force to get the current occupant out, this would not be good for either community and the results would be very negative, fights and even murders.

[Alexis]

Anglo, Viewpoint,

I respect your opinions, but find them very pessimistic.
At some point, if a settlement occurs exchanges of properties are likely to occur as are the meeting (even if by accident) of the people involved, after all many of these people will be living in the same villages and shopping at the same places. If we expect that this will result in bloodshed then it looks like we have not learnt anything from the past. Anyways, I live in hope...

Alexis

[Turkey (( *]

No Alexis you live in a dream! You may have learnt something from the past but not all have!