Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

Ok then, remove their RoC Passport, ID cards, Veto Green Line trade and EU convergence funding to the North etc etc etc and see how quickly they move towards Turkey or sue the RoC within the EU. Then there is the issue of perpetuating the Cyp. Prob. and see how the EU gets round this with regard Turkeys EU entry - after all a market of 70 million and growing, soon to be major energy hub, NATO member etc is much more important then 800k Cypriots.

Ok then, remove their RoC Passport, ID cards, Veto Green Line trade and EU convergence funding to the North etc etc etc and see how quickly they move towards Turkey or sue the RoC within the EU.

Oh please stop pretending that the TCs have any say so in being in control of their own destiny in the north. They are in the minority to the settlers for God sake, and just because they are in control of the Micky Mouse Parliament, hardly makes them in control. The fact that many TCs use the RoC's and EU's positions for their own needs without any loyalty to even consider themselves to be Cypriots, is an embarrassment and an insult to their own integrity, or lack there of it.!

Then there is the issue of perpetuating the Cyp. Prob. and see how the EU gets round this with regard Turkeys EU entry - after all a market of 70 million and growing, soon to be major energy hub, NATO member etc is much more important then 800k Cypriots.

Turkey's 70+ million is already accessible to the EU, so what's the difference. As the saying goes, "why buy the cow, when you can get the milk for free". Don't get me wrong, because I want Turkey to be in the EU, but ONLY after she does what she needs to do, and the list is way too long for me to list here now. The fact that many Turks can't afford to buy products produced in the EU is another matter entirely. Turkey would be beneficial to the EU if their population had real buying power to boost the EU countries manufacturing products. The truth is, they don't. The only benefit the EU gets from Turkey, is by capitalizing on Turkey's cheap labour force and products. That's why it would benefit the EU more to keep Turkey out of the EU than in the EU. Last time I checked, it was Turkey who applied to become a member and not an invitation extended by the EU for Turkey to become a member, as the case has been to Switzerland, which the Swiss twice told the EU, thanks, but no thanks.!

As for Turkey being a energy hub is also being over played by Turkey. They will only be a transitional point to allow energy to go from East to West and it is not them who will produce the energy. Russians already secured most of the energy from neighbouring countries to Turkey to buy and send that energy to Europe. Next place for energy to come from, will be from Iran, and since Iran has much closer relationship with Russia than the west, I expect the Russians to tab into that market also and shut the west out from direct purchase from the Iranians. Turkey's NATO position is just one of many in the hands of the EU. They already have it from Turkey as a non EU member.! Cyprus on the other hand have a veto power over Turkey's EU membership. Not bad for a little island of 1 million over a big country of 70+ million.!


Did you have any more points to make, or was that all you had.????

[AWE]

According to the Fourth Geneva Convention (Article 59), drawn for the protection of civilians during a time of war, any form of relief aid should be to the benefit of the civilian population and not for "the benefit of the Occupying Power. "

Well, it may be argued that all the material help the TCs receive, for example jobs, health, welfare benefits, from the RoC or even from EU grants, is helping the occupying Turkish troops by inadvertently releasing more of the money from Turkey, which would have gone to help the TCs, instead being used for her occupying army.

So, I think there is a strong case for ceasing help to the TCs, and hence reducing the help to the Turkish occupying army .... which continues the occupation of our country ...

Fantastic trust building at it's best. Hands up all those for permanent partition?

What "trust" building is there by TCs? -- That they keep 43,000 Turkish troops in our country to keep the GCs away from their homes?

What should we GCs "trust" about this situation? To "trust" it would mean we are happy with it and we want it to remain!

We are not happy with the present situation ... The troops must leave; if we stopped aiding the TCs, Turkey would have to find more money to maintain them and then realise the FULL cost of this operation.

At present, we are just subsidising the occupation by feeding more freebies to the TCs!

Ok then, remove their RoC Passport, ID cards, Veto Green Line trade and EU convergence funding to the North etc etc etc and see how quickly they move towards Turkey or sue the RoC within the EU. Then there is the issue of perpetuating the Cyp. Prob. and see how the EU gets round this with regard Turkeys EU entry - after all a market of 70 million and growing, soon to be major energy hub, NATO member etc is much more important then 800k Cypriots.

They have already moved towards Turkey, are you blind deaf and dumb?

And, where is it written that the RoC has to administer the TCs' welfare, whilst they reside in the illegally occupied territories?

Not blind deaf or dumb - so they have moved towards Turkey - lack of trade, direct flights and similar economic impediments from '63 onwards may be a major fact in this don't you think?

And it is not written that the RoC needs to administer to the TCs just it's citizens and per EU law - and similarly to the UK for Expats - the RoC could easily say they will only administer to its citizens living the Govt. controlled areas. This would be interesting to see, will the TCs move South or stay North? Of course this would have to exclude citizens living elsewhere say Aus, UK , USA etc

[AWE]

According to the Fourth Geneva Convention (Article 59), drawn for the protection of civilians during a time of war, any form of relief aid should be to the benefit of the civilian population and not for "the benefit of the Occupying Power. "

Well, it may be argued that all the material help the TCs receive, for example jobs, health, welfare benefits, from the RoC or even from EU grants, is helping the occupying Turkish troops by inadvertently releasing more of the money from Turkey, which would have gone to help the TCs, instead being used for her occupying army.

So, I think there is a strong case for ceasing help to the TCs, and hence reducing the help to the Turkish occupying army .... which continues the occupation of our country ...

Fantastic trust building at it's best. Hands up all those for permanent partition?

What "trust" building is there by TCs? -- That they keep 43,000 Turkish troops in our country to keep the GCs away from their homes?

What should we GCs "trust" about this situation? To "trust" it would mean we are happy with it and we want it to remain!

We are not happy with the present situation ... The troops must leave; if we stopped aiding the TCs, Turkey would have to find more money to maintain them and then realise the FULL cost of this operation.

At present, we are just subsidising the occupation by feeding more freebies to the TCs!

Ok then, remove their RoC Passport, ID cards, Veto Green Line trade and EU convergence funding to the North etc etc etc and see how quickly they move towards Turkey or sue the RoC within the EU. Then there is the issue of perpetuating the Cyp. Prob. and see how the EU gets round this with regard Turkeys EU entry - after all a market of 70 million and growing, soon to be major energy hub, NATO member etc is much more important then 800k Cypriots.

So why is Turkey having so much difficulty entering the EU?

Racism perhaps?

The EU needs an injection of young workers that pay Tax and Social Security and has 2 options expansion or immigration and although a number of people in the EU are not keen on Turkish entry the reality is that Turkey is becoming too important for the EU to not allow in in due course. no it wont happen over night.

[DT.]

According to the Fourth Geneva Convention (Article 59), drawn for the protection of civilians during a time of war, any form of relief aid should be to the benefit of the civilian population and not for "the benefit of the Occupying Power. "

Well, it may be argued that all the material help the TCs receive, for example jobs, health, welfare benefits, from the RoC or even from EU grants, is helping the occupying Turkish troops by inadvertently releasing more of the money from Turkey, which would have gone to help the TCs, instead being used for her occupying army.

So, I think there is a strong case for ceasing help to the TCs, and hence reducing the help to the Turkish occupying army .... which continues the occupation of our country ...

Fantastic trust building at it's best. Hands up all those for permanent partition?

What "trust" building is there by TCs? -- That they keep 43,000 Turkish troops in our country to keep the GCs away from their homes?

What should we GCs "trust" about this situation? To "trust" it would mean we are happy with it and we want it to remain!

We are not happy with the present situation ... The troops must leave; if we stopped aiding the TCs, Turkey would have to find more money to maintain them and then realise the FULL cost of this operation.

At present, we are just subsidising the occupation by feeding more freebies to the TCs!

Ok then, remove their RoC Passport, ID cards, Veto Green Line trade and EU convergence funding to the North etc etc etc and see how quickly they move towards Turkey or sue the RoC within the EU. Then there is the issue of perpetuating the Cyp. Prob. and see how the EU gets round this with regard Turkeys EU entry - after all a market of 70 million and growing, soon to be major energy hub, NATO member etc is much more important then 800k Cypriots.

So why is Turkey having so much difficulty entering the EU?

Racism perhaps?

The EU needs an injection of young workers that pay Tax and Social Security and has 2 options expansion or immigration and although a number of people in the EU are not keen on Turkish entry the reality is that Turkey is becoming too important for the EU to not allow in in due course. no it wont happen over night.

So despite all the benefits that you've listed Turkey as having over Cyprus and that no one cares about 800,000 people but the 70 million people.....Turkey is having trouble getting in because of....racism?

All those pipelines, those strategic interests for......racism?

Have another go.

[EPSILON]

According to the Fourth Geneva Convention (Article 59), drawn for the protection of civilians during a time of war, any form of relief aid should be to the benefit of the civilian population and not for "the benefit of the Occupying Power. "

Well, it may be argued that all the material help the TCs receive, for example jobs, health, welfare benefits, from the RoC or even from EU grants, is helping the occupying Turkish troops by inadvertently releasing more of the money from Turkey, which would have gone to help the TCs, instead being used for her occupying army.

So, I think there is a strong case for ceasing help to the TCs, and hence reducing the help to the Turkish occupying army .... which continues the occupation of our country ...

Fantastic trust building at it's best. Hands up all those for permanent partition?

What "trust" building is there by TCs? -- That they keep 43,000 Turkish troops in our country to keep the GCs away from their homes?

What should we GCs "trust" about this situation? To "trust" it would mean we are happy with it and we want it to remain!

We are not happy with the present situation ... The troops must leave; if we stopped aiding the TCs, Turkey would have to find more money to maintain them and then realise the FULL cost of this operation.

At present, we are just subsidising the occupation by feeding more freebies to the TCs!

Ok then, remove their RoC Passport, ID cards, Veto Green Line trade and EU convergence funding to the North etc etc etc and see how quickly they move towards Turkey or sue the RoC within the EU. Then there is the issue of perpetuating the Cyp. Prob. and see how the EU gets round this with regard Turkeys EU entry - after all a market of 70 million and growing, soon to be major energy hub, NATO member etc is much more important then 800k Cypriots.

You are right-this is also the official thinking of Turkish government-all countries which are less than 10 million people must dissapear in order the famous Nation of Turks survive and became great.But actual life of course is different and nobody can guarantee to Sultans that the future it will be in their favor. If i remember well during the last century this Nation's territory (expmt the case of Cyprus) is became smaller and smaller/ Future will show how small can be finally be.

[Tim Drayton]

[...]
stop pretending that the TCs have any say so in being in control of their own destiny in the north.
[...]

I agree, and feel that this point demolishes the very premise upon which this whole thread is based.

[denizaksulu]

According to the Fourth Geneva Convention (Article 59), drawn for the protection of civilians during a time of war, any form of relief aid should be to the benefit of the civilian population and not for "the benefit of the Occupying Power. "

Well, it may be argued that all the material help the TCs receive, for example jobs, health, welfare benefits, from the RoC or even from EU grants, is helping the occupying Turkish troops by inadvertently releasing more of the money from Turkey, which would have gone to help the TCs, instead being used for her occupying army.

So, I think there is a strong case for ceasing help to the TCs, and hence reducing the help to the Turkish occupying army .... which continues the occupation of our country ...

Fantastic trust building at it's best. Hands up all those for permanent partition?

What "trust" building is there by TCs? -- That they keep 43,000 Turkish troops in our country to keep the GCs away from their homes?

What should we GCs "trust" about this situation? To "trust" it would mean we are happy with it and we want it to remain!

We are not happy with the present situation ... The troops must leave; if we stopped aiding the TCs, Turkey would have to find more money to maintain them and then realise the FULL cost of this operation.

At present, we are just subsidising the occupation by feeding more freebies to the TCs!

Ok then, remove their RoC Passport, ID cards, Veto Green Line trade and EU convergence funding to the North etc etc etc and see how quickly they move towards Turkey or sue the RoC within the EU. Then there is the issue of perpetuating the Cyp. Prob. and see how the EU gets round this with regard Turkeys EU entry - after all a market of 70 million and growing, soon to be major energy hub, NATO member etc is much more important then 800k Cypriots.

They have already moved towards Turkey, are you blind deaf and dumb?

And, where is it written that the RoC has to administer the TCs' welfare, whilst they reside in the illegally occupied territories?

Not blind deaf or dumb - so they have moved towards Turkey - lack of trade, direct flights and similar economic impediments from '63 onwards may be a major fact in this don't you think?

And it is not written that the RoC needs to administer to the TCs just it's citizens and per EU law - and similarly to the UK for Expats - the RoC could easily say they will only administer to its citizens living the Govt. controlled areas. This would be interesting to see, will the TCs move South or stay North? Of course this would have to exclude citizens living elsewhere say Aus, UK , USA etc

I think nobody ought to be excluded. Thousands of GC's and TC's are living abroad becacuse they are either refugees or the return to their villages on either side is impracticable. Not all those who live abroad do so because they love it there.

Addressing the main point, 'trust' is a key point. Without trust I see no chance of all of any peace settlement. With NO trust, might as well build a 'Berlin Wall' accross the divide. The EU, through the RoC should make more effort - not reduce any benefits (as mentioned before) - to show the TCs that the RoC can be trusted and are willing to let bygones be bygone - if they ever want to achieve a lasting settlement.

Oracles angry and punitive approach will help no one. This will guarantee partition forever. Is this what we want?

[AWE]

Oh please stop pretending that the TCs have any say so in being in control of their own destiny in the north. They are in the minority to the settlers for God sake, and just because they are in control of the Micky Mouse Parliament, hardly makes them in control. The fact that many TCs use the RoC's and EU's positions for their own needs without any loyalty to even consider themselves to be Cypriots, is an embarrassment and an insult to their own integrity, or lack there of it.!

Then it is all over bar the shouting – may as well remove the RoC benefits from TCs that live in the North and see what happens. Given your above statement would mean that the population of the North do not want a solution.

Turkey's 70+ million is already accessible to the EU, so what's the difference. As the saying goes, "why buy the cow, when you can get the milk for free". Don't get me wrong, because I want Turkey to be in the EU, but ONLY after she does what she needs to do, and the list is way too long for me to list here now. The fact that many Turks can't afford to buy products produced in the EU is another matter entirely. Turkey would be beneficial to the EU if their population had real buying power to boost the EU countries manufacturing products.

In the short term, I agree many Turks cannot buy the products of the EU, as is true of China, but this does not stop all the EU brands selling in China even with the very high import taxes and duties levied nor in fact in Turkey – imagine a market of 70 possible 80 million that can afford the EU products – it is not what Turkey is but what it will become that is of importance – it will take time for sure.

The only benefit the EU gets from Turkey, is by capitalizing on Turkey's cheap labour force and products. That's why it would benefit the EU more to keep Turkey out of the EU than in the EU. Last time I checked, it was Turkey who applied to become a member and not an invitation extended by the EU for Turkey to become a member, as the case has been to Switzerland, which the Swiss twice told the EU, thanks, but no thanks.!

And great short term benefit – but longer term as the country develops the cheap labour force will diminish, we then get to the scenario above. As to applying so did every current member and all did so as they saw an economic benefit, Iceland did not until recently, Norway does not want to send it’s oil money south and Switzerland choose not in a referendum whether offered or not.

As for Turkey being a energy hub is also being over played by Turkey. They will only be a transitional point to allow energy to go from East to West and it is not them who will produce the energy. Russians already secured most of the energy from neighbouring countries to Turkey to buy and send that energy to Europe. Next place for energy to come from, will be from Iran, and since Iran has much closer relationship with Russia than the west, I expect the Russians to tab into that market also and shut the west out from direct purchase from the Iranians.

That said I agree in part with your assessment about Iran but doubt it will send it’s gas north via the central Asians to the EU market – cheaper and faster to send it to Turkey and into Nabucco than the long way round – also less to pay away in transportation charges so a bigger cut of the market price comes to Iran.

[Oracle]

[...]
stop pretending that the TCs have any say so in being in control of their own destiny in the north.
[...]

I agree, and feel that this point demolishes the very premise upon which this whole thread is based.

On the contrary, it confirms the point that we are subsiding those who now 'belong' to Turkey, by virtue of who controls their destiny.

... Why should the RoC give them welfare/pastoral care whilst they are "controlled"/administered by Turkey? It's tantamount to (indirectly) subsidising the troops for Turkey!

[Piratis]

Not blind deaf or dumb - so they have moved towards Turkey - lack of trade, direct flights and similar economic impediments from '63 onwards may be a major fact in this don't you think?

You got the order in reverse. The TCs collaborated with Turkey (and Britain) from the 1950s, and they have been used by these 2 imperialists as a way to deny to the Cypriot people their freedom and self-determination. The TCs in return were promised gains on the expense of the majority of the population, as a reward for the help (and excuse) they gave to Turkey and Britain.

So what came first was the collaboration of TCs with Turkey. What came after was the result of this collaboration.

Of course the TCs expected that the result would be a one way screwing of the majority of Cypriots by the Imperialists and their minority, and they expected that it would be all great for themselves. They got it wrong.

And be sure we will use our EU membership to the fullest, so that not only TCs but also Turkey will have a much bigger problem that they could ever imagine that small Cyprus could cause to them.

We are not going to bent to be screwed by anybody. We will fight for our freedom and self-determination in our own island and sooner or later we will get what we deserve. The TC minority should be satisfied to also get what they deserve, which is what every other ethnic minority gets in every other democratic country, because if they continue to collaborate with foreigners trying to get more than that on our expense then in the end they will be biggest losers of all and they will only have themselves and their greed to blame.