Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

The Cypriot wrote:

So ancient that it predates the Greek orthodox church.

Wrong! You are confusing the national church of Greece with the Greek Orthodox Church. It is something people like you do often, because you believe that Greece is the only country that can have anything "Greek" in its title. You believe that for anything to be Greek, it must have come from the area encompassing modern day Greece. You look at it from this narrow perspective, and fail to appreciate the history. The Greek Orthodox Church refers to several different Churches. The Cypriot Orthodox Church is an ancient Greek Orthodox Church, just like the Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria, or the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch. These are ancient Greek Orthodox Churches that are independent of the Church of Greece.

Here is what is meant by 'Greek Orthodox Church':

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_orthodox_church

The Cypriot wrote:

It could be argued strongly that this is a misnomer. But not by me as I wouldn't want to waste my mind trying to convert you.

Greek Orthodox means belonging to the Greek speaking Orthodox Church and share similar cultural traditions. It does not mean you're a part of the national Church of Greece. This is your misunderstanding.

The Cypriot wrote:

It could make you proud that the Greeks took Cyprus's spiritual and cultural lead, couldn't it?

What lead? The Greeks from the mainland were converted by missionaries just as the Greek Cypriots were. St Paul himself went to Athens. The Church of Greece was established much later once Greece gained independence.

The Cypriot wrote:

The Orthodox Church of (Thyateira and) Great Britain is not autocephalous and falls under the Patriarchate of Constantinople. It's where UK Cypriots (that way inclined) go for spiritual sustenance.

Yes, which is another Greek Orthodox Church.

The Cypriot wrote:

Actually, they speak "Koine", the lingua franca of the eastern Mediterranean. It's the language in which the gospels were written and also in which Saint Paul wrote his famous letters.

"Koine" was/is a form of Greek. The Church of Cyprus speaks Greek the same as the other Greek Orthodox Churches.

Good post Simon!

[Oracle]

There are far more important issues to be agreed, let your men in black argue their shit out in the internaitonal courts doesnt change the reality on the ground that the island will stay divided until a comprehensive solution is found.

You only care about money and stealing the land of others. Of course you turn away from moral guidance!

[The Cypriot]

Good post, Simon!

Wrong! You are confusing the national church of Greece with the Greek Orthodox Church. It is something people like you do often, because you believe that Greece is the only country that can have anything "Greek" in its title. You believe that for anything to be Greek, it must have come from the area encompassing modern day Greece.

Hey Simon. Don't try and tell me what I believe, OK? Tell me what you believe. Do you believe Irish Catholics are Romans?

You look at it from this narrow perspective, and fail to appreciate the history.

I fail to appreciate Cypriot history? Please don't insult me. I simply take a different view. I mean, if that's OK with you, your Eminence?

The Greek Orthodox Church refers to several different Churches. The Cypriot Orthodox Church is an ancient Greek Orthodox Church, just like the Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria, or the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch. These are ancient Greek Orthodox Churches that are independent of the Church of Greece.

Here is what is meant by 'Greek Orthodox Church':

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_orthodox_church

As I said, Greek is a misnomer. Cypriots are "Greek" Orthodox in the same way as the Irish are "Roman" Catholics. Perhaps Byzantine Orthodox would be a better description, or "Koine" Orthodox, as what we have in common is the use of "Koine" in the liturgy.

Greek Orthodox means belonging to the Greek speaking Orthodox Church and share similar cultural traditions. It does not mean you're a part of the national Church of Greece. This is your misunderstanding.

By the same token, the church of Ireland used to conduct its liturgy in Latin, thus Irish people were Roman Catholics - or even "Romans". But that doesn't mean they were really Romans. Geddit?

The Greeks from the mainland were converted by missionaries just as the Greek Cypriots were. St Paul himself went to Athens. The Church of Greece was established much later once Greece gained independence.

Thanks for that. The Church of Cyprus was established as early as 434 AD. Allow me to take some pride in that fact, even if you won't.

The Cypriot wrote:

The Orthodox Church of (Thyateira and) Great Britain is not autocephalous and falls under the Patriarchate of Constantinople. It's where UK Cypriots (that way inclined) go for spiritual sustenance.

Yes, which is another Greek Orthodox Church.

Yes, they conduct the liturgy in Koine too.

The Cypriot wrote:

Actually, they speak "Koine", the lingua franca of the eastern Mediterranean. It's the language in which the gospels were written and also in which Saint Paul wrote his famous letters.

"Koine" was/is a form of Greek. The Church of Cyprus speaks Greek the same as the other Greek Orthodox Churches.

"Koine" is to modern Greek what Latin is to Italian/Spanish and other Romance languages. The Church of Cyprus speaks "Koine" as the Roman Catholic church of Ireland conducts (or used to conduct - they've moved with the times) its liturgy in Latin. The misunderstanding stems from the use of the word "Greek" for "Koine".

[The Cypriot]

That still doesn't mean the Greek/Cypriot Orthodox Churches are spiritually/culturally any different, does it?

They both conduct the liturgy in "Koine" so in that sense they are culturally equivalent, though the Cypriot church came first. Spiritually all eastern orthodox churches are the same.

Same with Greeks and Greek Cypriots!

Whatever, O. If it comforts you to lump together all the people of Greece and all people in Cyprus with a Christian orthodox heritage then who am I to deny you this comfort?

But the Church of Cyprus is autocephalous of Greece and was established centuries before the Church of Greece. Indeed Cyprus was the first nation to convert to Christianity. I think that's a hugely important aspect of Cyprus's cultural and spiritual history which is overlooked and forgotten because we sloppily lump our Church in with the Church of Greece.

But, I shall stop there lest I am accused of "wasting your time", again

It's not so much that you're "wasting my time"; more deliberately trying my patience.

God bless, good thread, goodbye.

Adio!

I was led to believe that it was Armenia the first nation to become Christian. Surely both cannot be right. Perhaps there is a subtle difference in both explanations. Yes, I know Peter and Paul...............and Barnabas.

Paul and Barnabas converted the Roman proconsul of Cyprus, Sergius Paulus (early 40s AD) making Cyprus the first Christian-ruled nation.

[denizaksulu]

That still doesn't mean the Greek/Cypriot Orthodox Churches are spiritually/culturally any different, does it?

They both conduct the liturgy in "Koine" so in that sense they are culturally equivalent, though the Cypriot church came first. Spiritually all eastern orthodox churches are the same.

Same with Greeks and Greek Cypriots!

Whatever, O. If it comforts you to lump together all the people of Greece and all people in Cyprus with a Christian orthodox heritage then who am I to deny you this comfort?

But the Church of Cyprus is autocephalous of Greece and was established centuries before the Church of Greece. Indeed Cyprus was the first nation to convert to Christianity. I think that's a hugely important aspect of Cyprus's cultural and spiritual history which is overlooked and forgotten because we sloppily lump our Church in with the Church of Greece.

But, I shall stop there lest I am accused of "wasting your time", again

It's not so much that you're "wasting my time"; more deliberately trying my patience.

God bless, good thread, goodbye.

Adio!

I was led to believe that it was Armenia the first nation to become Christian. Surely both cannot be right. Perhaps there is a subtle difference in both explanations. Yes, I know Peter and Paul...............and Barnabas.

Paul and Barnabas converted the Roman proconsul of Cyprus, Sergius Paulus (early 40s AD) making Cyprus the first Christian-ruled nation.

Just the proconsul. Ok, if you say so. I hope he was not a crpto-christian like those in Rome. Did the whole island then becme christian? I will delve into my archives.

Thank you.

[denizaksulu]

CHRISTIANITY IN ARMENIA - The First Christian Nation On Earth


Hye Mer
The Lord's Prayer
One of the most crucial events in Armenian history was the conversion of Armenia to Christianity!
By adopting the new religion in the fourth century, Armenia renounced its Eastern or Persian-influenced past, established a distinct Christian character of its own, and, at times, became identified with the Western world. Armenian national tradition is rich in information and in legends about the introduction of Christianity into the country. It is often said to have been preached by the Holy Apostles, or the immediate disciples of the Apostles, notably St. Thaddeus and St. Bartholomew. However, these accounts are relatively late, and not generally regarded as historically authentic.


The traditional account of the conversion is based on a mixture of fact and fiction recorded a century later by the Armenian chronicler known as "Agathangelos". It tells of wars of an Armenian king Khosrov against the new Persian Sasanid dynasty and the efforts of Persia to destroy the Armenian Arshakunis. The Persian king employed a traitor named "Anak" ( in fact, Khosrov’s brother) to murder the Armenian king. Promised a reward by the Sasanids, Anak settled in Armenia, befriended Khosrov, and murdered him and most of his family.

Anak and his family were, in turn, slain by angry Armenian courtiers. Only two sons were saved from death: Khosrov’s son "Trdat", who was taken to Rome, and Anak’s son "Gregory", ( the future St. Gregory the Illuminator), who was taken to live among Christians in Cappadocia.

Years later, according to Agathangelos, Trdat, with the help of Rome, returned to Armenia to regain his father’s throne. While passing through Caesarea he met the son of Anak, who had been given the name of Gregory by his Christian mentors and, unaware of his true identity, took him into his service.

After regaining Armenia, Trdat, recognizing great abilities in Gregory, raised him in stature at court. Gregory, of course, had already accepted the Christian faith and eschewed pagan ceremonies. Soon rumors of his parentage began to surface, spread by jealous nobles, which lead to his torture and imprisonment in Khorvirab (deep pit).

Years passed and King Trdat, like his godfather Diocletian, continued his persecution of Christians. Among the martyrs of that period were "Gayane" and" Hripsime" , two virgins who had refused King Trdat’s advances and were put to death.

According to Agathangelos, after this crime, King Trdat was punished for his sin by divine retribution by turning into a wild beast. He was afflicted, it seems, with a form of violent lycanthropy(a form of mental disorder in which the patient imagines himself to be a wolf). No one could cure him of this transformation until his sister, Khosrovidukht, had a dream in which an angel instructed her to release Gregory who, despite long years in isolation, had, by divine intervention, survived in the pit. The princess was convinced that if Gregory was brought forth from his pit, he would cure the king of his dire affliction. King Trdat accepted his sister’s advice and released the saint from the deep pit. Gregory restored the king’s health and sanity, and then baptized him with all his household. Thus, the King, in 301 A.D., proclaimed Christianity the sole state religion, making Armenia the First Christian Nation on Earth..

http://www.armenianheritage.com/refirstc.htm

[Oracle]

For the last time ... this Court case has nothing to do with "religion" ... but seeking justice for the abuses which Turkey conducts upon individuals such as preventing access to their homes (places of rest) ....

This will be another landmark case.

Next it will be other businesses suing for loss of business on top of all else.

Turkey get lost whilst the going is "good"!

[The Cypriot]

CHRISTIANITY IN ARMENIA - The First Christian Nation On Earth


Hye Mer
The Lord's Prayer
One of the most crucial events in Armenian history was the conversion of Armenia to Christianity!
By adopting the new religion in the fourth century, Armenia renounced its Eastern or Persian-influenced past, established a distinct Christian character of its own, and, at times, became identified with the Western world. Armenian national tradition is rich in information and in legends about the introduction of Christianity into the country. It is often said to have been preached by the Holy Apostles, or the immediate disciples of the Apostles, notably St. Thaddeus and St. Bartholomew. However, these accounts are relatively late, and not generally regarded as historically authentic.


The traditional account of the conversion is based on a mixture of fact and fiction recorded a century later by the Armenian chronicler known as "Agathangelos". It tells of wars of an Armenian king Khosrov against the new Persian Sasanid dynasty and the efforts of Persia to destroy the Armenian Arshakunis. The Persian king employed a traitor named "Anak" ( in fact, Khosrov’s brother) to murder the Armenian king. Promised a reward by the Sasanids, Anak settled in Armenia, befriended Khosrov, and murdered him and most of his family.

Anak and his family were, in turn, slain by angry Armenian courtiers. Only two sons were saved from death: Khosrov’s son "Trdat", who was taken to Rome, and Anak’s son "Gregory", ( the future St. Gregory the Illuminator), who was taken to live among Christians in Cappadocia.

Years later, according to Agathangelos, Trdat, with the help of Rome, returned to Armenia to regain his father’s throne. While passing through Caesarea he met the son of Anak, who had been given the name of Gregory by his Christian mentors and, unaware of his true identity, took him into his service.

After regaining Armenia, Trdat, recognizing great abilities in Gregory, raised him in stature at court. Gregory, of course, had already accepted the Christian faith and eschewed pagan ceremonies. Soon rumors of his parentage began to surface, spread by jealous nobles, which lead to his torture and imprisonment in Khorvirab (deep pit).

Years passed and King Trdat, like his godfather Diocletian, continued his persecution of Christians. Among the martyrs of that period were "Gayane" and" Hripsime" , two virgins who had refused King Trdat’s advances and were put to death.

According to Agathangelos, after this crime, King Trdat was punished for his sin by divine retribution by turning into a wild beast. He was afflicted, it seems, with a form of violent lycanthropy(a form of mental disorder in which the patient imagines himself to be a wolf). No one could cure him of this transformation until his sister, Khosrovidukht, had a dream in which an angel instructed her to release Gregory who, despite long years in isolation, had, by divine intervention, survived in the pit. The princess was convinced that if Gregory was brought forth from his pit, he would cure the king of his dire affliction. King Trdat accepted his sister’s advice and released the saint from the deep pit. Gregory restored the king’s health and sanity, and then baptized him with all his household. Thus, the King, in 301 A.D., proclaimed Christianity the sole state religion, making Armenia the First Christian Nation on Earth..

http://www.armenianheritage.com/refirstc.htm

Armenian spin, 260 years after Sergius...!

[Simon]

Wrong! You are confusing the national church of Greece with the Greek Orthodox Church. It is something people like you do often, because you believe that Greece is the only country that can have anything "Greek" in its title. You believe that for anything to be Greek, it must have come from the area encompassing modern day Greece.

The Cypriot wrote:

Hey Simon. Don't try and tell me what I believe, OK? Tell me what you believe. Do you believe Irish Catholics are Romans?

I don't need to tell you anything. It is an observation from your posts, and I don't need your permission to make observations, OK? The Irish and Roman Catholics are completely irrelevant. The Irish have never identified as "Romans". They weren't even part of the Roman Empire. You are now trying to turn this into an ethnic/nationality debate it seems. We were talking about religion. I simply refuted your argument that Greek Cypriots are not Greek Orthodox because the Cypriot Church is autocephalous and not part of the Church of Greece.

You look at it from this narrow perspective, and fail to appreciate the history.

The Cypriot wrote:

I fail to appreciate Cypriot history? Please don't insult me. I simply take a different view. I mean, if that's OK with you, your Eminence?

You fail to appreciate the ancient Greek heritage of Cyprus. You look at history from the viewpoint that Cyprus has always been distinct from the rest of the Greeks. This is misinformed, and this is my view, if that's OK with you?

The Greek Orthodox Church refers to several different Churches. The Cypriot Orthodox Church is an ancient Greek Orthodox Church, just like the Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria, or the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch. These are ancient Greek Orthodox Churches that are independent of the Church of Greece.

Here is what is meant by 'Greek Orthodox Church':

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_orthodox_church

The Cypriot wrote:

As I said, Greek is a misnomer. Cypriots are "Greek" Orthodox in the same way as the Irish are "Roman" Catholics. Perhaps Byzantium Orthodox would be a better description, or "Koine" Orthodox, as what we have in common is the use of "Koine" in the liturgy.

You're mixing up your displeasure for the majority of Cypriots identifying as Greek Cypriots with the term 'Greek Orthodox'. Greek Orthodox is not supposed to denote nationality, but just the language and cultural tradition of the particular Orthodox Church. It is a 'misnomer' to you because you apparently dislike anything Greek in Cyprus. I don't really understand your argument with the Roman Catholics. Are you saying Irish Catholics are not Roman, so Greek Orthodox Cypriots are not Greek? If so, I have to say that is total nonsense and doesn't even make sense. The Greek Cypriots identify themselves as Greek not only because of religious links, but many other reasons too.

Greek Orthodox means belonging to the Greek speaking Orthodox Church and share similar cultural traditions. It does not mean you're a part of the national Church of Greece. This is your misunderstanding.

The Cypriot wrote:

By the same token, the church of Ireland used to conduct its liturgy in Latin, thus Irish people were Roman Catholics - or even "Romans". But that doesn't mean they were really Romans. Geddit?

I'm afraid it's you who don't 'geddit'. Are you saying religion determines nationality? I've never argued this. I simply corrected the false impression you had about the Church of Greece, and now you're trying to say that being Greek Orthodox alone doesn't make you ethnically Greek. I never said it did, there are many reasons why Greek Cypriots regard themselves as Greek. The Cypriots were Greek before Christianity appeared in Cyprus, so your argument doesn't make a lot of sense.

The Greeks from the mainland were converted by missionaries just as the Greek Cypriots were. St Paul himself went to Athens. The Church of Greece was established much later once Greece gained independence.

The Cypriot wrote:

Thanks for that. The Church of Cyprus was established as early as 434 AD. Allow me to take some pride in that fact, even if you won't.

You can take all the pride you want. Again, I was simply correcting your false impression.

The Cypriot wrote:

The Orthodox Church of (Thyateira and) Great Britain is not autocephalous and falls under the Patriarchate of Constantinople. It's where UK Cypriots (that way inclined) go for spiritual sustenance.

Yes, which is another Greek Orthodox Church.

The Cypriot wrote:

Yes, they conduct the liturgy in Koine too.

Yes, which means the church is Greek Orthodox. I'm glad you agree.

The Cypriot wrote:

Actually, they speak "Koine", the lingua franca of the eastern Mediterranean. It's the language in which the gospels were written and also in which Saint Paul wrote his famous letters.

"Koine" was/is a form of Greek. The Church of Cyprus speaks Greek the same as the other Greek Orthodox Churches.

The Cypriot wrote:

"Koine" is to modern Greek what Latin is to Italian/Spanish and other Romance languages. The Church of Cyprus speaks "Koine" as the Roman Catholic church conducts (or used to conduct - they've moved with the times) its liturgy in Latin. The misunderstanding stems from the use of the word "Greek" for "Koine".

"Koine" was known and is still known today as Greek. An earlier form of Greek than is spoken today, but Greek all the same. It is far more closely related to modern Greek than what Latin is to the modern European languages. Indeed, some Greeks, especially the ones who can read Katharevousa, would be able to understand Koine.

[The Cypriot]

I don't need to tell you anything. It is an observation from your posts, and I don't need your permission to make observations, OK?

Make observations by all means. Don't tell me what I believe.

The Irish and Roman Catholics are completely irrelevant. You are now trying to turn this into an ethnic/nationality debate it seems. We were talking about religion. I simply refuted your argument that Greek Cypriots are not Greek Orthodox because the Cypriot Church is autocephalous and not part of the Church of Greece.

The analogy with the Irish is entirely relevant. You just don't get it. I didn't expect you to get it but maybe others will. As I said, I'm not out to convert you, Simon.

You fail to appreciate the ancient Greek heritage of Cyprus. You look at history from the viewpoint that Cyprus has always been distinct from the rest of the Greeks. This is misinformed, and this is my view, if that's OK with you?

It's informed certainly. Whether misinformed comes down to one's perspective. I choose to view Cypriot history from a different perspective to you.

You're mixing up your displeasure for the majority of Cypriots identifying as Greek Cypriots with the term 'Greek Orthodox'. Greek Orthodox is not supposed to denote nationality, but just the language and cultural tradition of the particular Orthodox Church. It is a 'misnomer' to you because you apparently dislike anything Greek in Cyprus. I don't really understand your argument with the Roman Catholics. Are you saying Irish Catholics are not Roman, so Greek Orthodox Cypriots are not Greek? If so, I have to say that is total nonsense and doesn't even make sense. The Greek Cypriots identify themselves as Greek not only because of religious links, but many other reasons too.

It's not nonsense at all. It saddens but doesn't surprise me that you refuse to appreciate the very clear analogy.

I'm afraid it's you who don't 'geddit'. Are you saying religion determines nationality? I've never argued this. I simply corrected the false impression you had about the Church of Greece, and now you're trying to say that being Greek Orthodox alone doesn't make you ethnically Greek. I never said it did, there are many reasons why Greek Cypriots regard themselves as Greek. The Cypriots were Greek before Christianity appeared in Cyprus, so your argument doesn't make a lot of sense.

What Cypriots shared with the rest of the eastern Mediterranean world, even before Christianity appeared, was the use of Koine.

An earlier form of Greek than is spoken today, but Greek all the same. It is far more closely related to modern Greek than what Latin is to the modern European languages.

I don't believe you. Common sense tells me that the relationship between Latin and Italian is analogous to the relationship between Koine and modern Greek. Unless you know any dispassionate linguistic historians that can demonstrate how and why the evolution of languages east and west differed markedly then common sense should prevail.

Indeed, some Greeks, especially the ones who can read Katharevousa, would be able to understand Koine.

Some Italians can probably understand Latin.