Cyprus-Forum.com

[AWE]

Take a large dollop of Hellenism, mix with 1 5th Turkic and add a dash of Armenian and Lebanese and leave in the Mediterranean sun to stew, it will soon divide up into clumps, turn up the heat after 10 years and it will divide in to two parts...

[YFred]

If you were a british or american thinking up ways to destabalize cyprus wouldnt you use pro west militia groups to do your dirty work its so obvious its oblivious to most.....Eoka and TMT both are virulent anticommunitst groups...with the majority of both sides being left leaning

I am reading through "Getting it Wrong" by Martin Packard, who was the man who put together the tripartite peace making (as opposed to peace keeping) patrols in Cyprus during the first half of 1964. These were patrols with Packard, one Greek and one Turkish officer going around villages in conflict and reconciling the two sides.

His revelations of that period are an eye opener. And he says of the British attitudes to Cyprus:

"Ultimately everyone has lost from Britain's pursuit of its own narrow self interests in Cyprus and its encouragement of Turkish involvement there. Cyprus has been a prime cause for regional division when it might have been a catalyst for convergence between Turkey and Greece, with vast economic benefits for both countries and for all Cypriots."

Packard illustrates how narrow self interest dominated and perverted the course of events and the British failed to realise that doing it the right way might heave yielded more long term benefits to themselves.

It is useful to bear in mind that this was a British naval intelligence officer who served in critical posts before and after the Cyprus posting. He had access to information and people that were key in the first stages of the problem.

But even so, I still cannot see how partition would be better for the British or NATO than a unified state. THe cold war helped and the fixation with the communist party in Cyprus helped. It is no accident that both EOKA and the TMT were virulent anticommunists.

I don't get your drift WC.

EOKA was a paramilitary guerrilla movement fighting the British for self determination. How can you perceive EOKA to be pro west when they were fighting the Brits?

@ Deniz and YFred - if you can't be serious and stop behaving like children, then get off this thread!

Perhaps Bafidis can tell us why Turkey did not stick to the pre-arranged plans and decided to add Louroudjina/Lurucina to the Turkish part of the map? (Yfred is from Lurucina if you had not noticed)

Bafidi knew that on account that his ancestors used to work for my dad as Labourer.
As to the change of the map, we did have one Lurucadi who was in some way related to Turkesh, now that may have been the reason for including Lurucina in the current map, however I can't explain how they decided to take 2.5% more than they should have done!
When I see that individual next time I'll grill him to see if he will divulge any info.

My grandfather was one of the biggest land owners in his village, some of which is now a golf course. We had many workers in the fields at the time, including many TCs.

He did tell me that there was this particularly weird chap that would work in his Y-Fronts on hot days...That wasn't you was it?

No you are showing how stupid you are. If 40 odd Bafidi GCs would come to work for my father, why would any Lurucadi nevermind one of the Yfred clan go to work for GCs in Baf. If there were any available workers in Lurucina, they would have worked for my father.
However the real revelation is why would a bunch of Bafidis' come all the way to Lurucina to work for a TC when there was so much work available in Baf?
Asshole.

[Paphitis]

If you were a british or american thinking up ways to destabalize cyprus wouldnt you use pro west militia groups to do your dirty work its so obvious its oblivious to most.....Eoka and TMT both are virulent anticommunitst groups...with the majority of both sides being left leaning

I am reading through "Getting it Wrong" by Martin Packard, who was the man who put together the tripartite peace making (as opposed to peace keeping) patrols in Cyprus during the first half of 1964. These were patrols with Packard, one Greek and one Turkish officer going around villages in conflict and reconciling the two sides.

His revelations of that period are an eye opener. And he says of the British attitudes to Cyprus:

"Ultimately everyone has lost from Britain's pursuit of its own narrow self interests in Cyprus and its encouragement of Turkish involvement there. Cyprus has been a prime cause for regional division when it might have been a catalyst for convergence between Turkey and Greece, with vast economic benefits for both countries and for all Cypriots."

Packard illustrates how narrow self interest dominated and perverted the course of events and the British failed to realise that doing it the right way might heave yielded more long term benefits to themselves.

It is useful to bear in mind that this was a British naval intelligence officer who served in critical posts before and after the Cyprus posting. He had access to information and people that were key in the first stages of the problem.

But even so, I still cannot see how partition would be better for the British or NATO than a unified state. THe cold war helped and the fixation with the communist party in Cyprus helped. It is no accident that both EOKA and the TMT were virulent anticommunists.

I don't get your drift WC.

EOKA was a paramilitary guerrilla movement fighting the British for self determination. How can you perceive EOKA to be pro west when they were fighting the Brits?

@ Deniz and YFred - if you can't be serious and stop behaving like children, then get off this thread!

Perhaps Bafidis can tell us why Turkey did not stick to the pre-arranged plans and decided to add Louroudjina/Lurucina to the Turkish part of the map? (Yfred is from Lurucina if you had not noticed)

Bafidi knew that on account that his ancestors used to work for my dad as Labourer.
As to the change of the map, we did have one Lurucadi who was in some way related to Turkesh, now that may have been the reason for including Lurucina in the current map, however I can't explain how they decided to take 2.5% more than they should have done!
When I see that individual next time I'll grill him to see if he will divulge any info.

My grandfather was one of the biggest land owners in his village, some of which is now a golf course. We had many workers in the fields at the time, including many TCs.

He did tell me that there was this particularly weird chap that would work in his Y-Fronts on hot days...That wasn't you was it?

No you are showing how stupid you are. If 40 odd Bafidi GCs would come to work for my father, why would any Lurucadi nevermind one of the Yfred clan go to work for GCs in Baf. If there were any available workers in Lurucina, they would have worked for my father.
However the real revelation is why would a bunch of Bafidis' come all the way to Lurucina to work for a TC when there was so much work available in Baf?
Asshole.

Perhaps because you are overstating the Y-Front clan's peasantry.

We all know they were working for a Paphian Vraka in fields which are now a putting green. Next time I go to Cyprus I will place a token statue dedicated to the size 7 Y-Front that use to plough my forebears fields, in honor of your clan's toil.

I thank you from the bottom of my heart Y-Front...

If you are ever hard up, I will let you cut my lawns whenever you are in Australia mate...

[Nikitas]

If you look at the map and see the salient of Lurugina, and assuming you know a little about military thinking you can appreciate why they advanced that far. Because they want to be able to control all roads from Nicosia to all major towns.

This is classic armoured corps officer thinking.

I am still baffled by the attitude of TCs to partition, from way back in the 50s. Did the people of Paphos and Limassolo districts regard as natural a forced moved to Rizokarpaso? Back then the Karpasia region, along with Tylliria, was th butt of jokes as the most backward areas of the island. Was there no contrary voice to this proposal within the TC community? Remember I am referring to the pre 1963 period when no forced evacuation was discussed.

Were there such reliable promises of equal land grants that partition became attractive? Or was the TMT able to impose the idea no matter what?

[denizaksulu]

If you were a british or american thinking up ways to destabalize cyprus wouldnt you use pro west militia groups to do your dirty work its so obvious its oblivious to most.....Eoka and TMT both are virulent anticommunitst groups...with the majority of both sides being left leaning

I am reading through "Getting it Wrong" by Martin Packard, who was the man who put together the tripartite peace making (as opposed to peace keeping) patrols in Cyprus during the first half of 1964. These were patrols with Packard, one Greek and one Turkish officer going around villages in conflict and reconciling the two sides.

His revelations of that period are an eye opener. And he says of the British attitudes to Cyprus:

"Ultimately everyone has lost from Britain's pursuit of its own narrow self interests in Cyprus and its encouragement of Turkish involvement there. Cyprus has been a prime cause for regional division when it might have been a catalyst for convergence between Turkey and Greece, with vast economic benefits for both countries and for all Cypriots."

Packard illustrates how narrow self interest dominated and perverted the course of events and the British failed to realise that doing it the right way might heave yielded more long term benefits to themselves.

It is useful to bear in mind that this was a British naval intelligence officer who served in critical posts before and after the Cyprus posting. He had access to information and people that were key in the first stages of the problem.

But even so, I still cannot see how partition would be better for the British or NATO than a unified state. THe cold war helped and the fixation with the communist party in Cyprus helped. It is no accident that both EOKA and the TMT were virulent anticommunists.

I don't get your drift WC.

EOKA was a paramilitary guerrilla movement fighting the British for self determination. How can you perceive EOKA to be pro west when they were fighting the Brits?

@ Deniz and YFred - if you can't be serious and stop behaving like children, then get off this thread!

Perhaps Bafidis can tell us why Turkey did not stick to the pre-arranged plans and decided to add Louroudjina/Lurucina to the Turkish part of the map? (Yfred is from Lurucina if you had not noticed)

The Turks have no right in Kyrenia let alone Lurucina...

Since when did Britain and Turkey have the right to carve up my homeland? [/quote]


That we agree upon. (in red)

The topic was the map drawn up by the colonial power who decided to carve up my homeland. Then we see it as a stick to the ENOSIS supporters - as I had always maintained. It seems the Enosis supporters bluffed /gambled and lost. Thus we all suffered. Dont you wish they heeded the threat? We wouldnt be in this mess now.

[Nikitas]

The most remarkable passage in Packard's book is his description of his meeting with Nikos Sampson in 1964. Back then Sampson was a member of parliament and publisher of the Mahi (Battle) newspaper.

Packard went to meet him at the Greek Orthodox Association where he found him talking with a Greek officer who was later introduced as Brigadier Ioannides, the man who later started the coup and brought on the current situation in Cyprus. At that time Ioannides was serving in ELDYK.

Interesting, at least I thought so.

I have often remarked that stationing Greek and Turkish troops in Cyprus is a mistake. There will be the newer versions of Ioannides sent to Cyprus to draw up contingency plans, because that is what army officers do, it is their job and they cannot stop themselves.

[YFred]

If you look at the map and see the salient of Lurugina, and assuming you know a little about military thinking you can appreciate why they advanced that far. Because they want to be able to control all roads from Nicosia to all major towns.

This is classic armoured corps officer thinking.

I am still baffled by the attitude of TCs to partition, from way back in the 50s. Did the people of Paphos and Limassolo districts regard as natural a forced moved to Rizokarpaso? Back then the Karpasia region, along with Tylliria, was th butt of jokes as the most backward areas of the island. Was there no contrary voice to this proposal within the TC community? Remember I am referring to the pre 1963 period when no forced evacuation was discussed.

Were there such reliable promises of equal land grants that partition became attractive? Or was the TMT able to impose the idea no matter what?

If you are right, so ho how is it that Turkish Army never got to Lurucina? They connected themselves to the North, with the help of the TAF of course.

[Nikitas]

YFred,

Look at the map and how the Turks occupy the high ground commanding the Nicosia Larnaca road, the old road that existed in 1974. Their main objective was not Lurgina or the inhabitants, but to occupy commanding positions. You can see their fortifications on Google Earth too.

The Turkish high command is very predictable in its choices. It is textbook tactics, and that is how they drew the lines on the Annan plan too.