Cyprus-Forum.com

[YFred]

whatever the outcome it must be fair for all sides as some tc were in cyprus before 1974

Some TCs? I think there was at least 4. Can you count using more than one hand? perhaps 9 TCs then.

[Get Real!]

whatever the outcome it must be fair for all sides as some tc were in cyprus before 1974

We're all starting to wonder if they ever existed...

[Tony-4497]

What Talat, or rather Turkey, does not realise is that a deal that "screws" the GCs will not last as in 1960, conflict and permanent division will result. Perhaps this is what Turkey wants, they will say "we tried but it didn't work" and the GCs will get the blame. With this in mind Christofias could give way on all issues including guarantees and settlers with the exception of territory. What I'm saying is that, in my view, partition, regrettably, is inevitable and with that in mind the only real issue is one of territory.

Jerry

I agree that any solution along the lines of the Annan plan, which is pretty much what Christofias is currently negotiating, will lead to partition very soon. Only an IDIOT would fail to "plan for the worst" (although I do fear that our leaders are not that clever..).

On this basis, you are right in saying that territory split is key (proportional i.e. as close to 82:18 as possible) - as is the need to secure that the return of land happens AT THE SAME TIME as the signing of the deal i.e. solution is pre-agreed, land returned (or at least given to UN), and THEN the new state of affairs is recognised. Otherwise, Turks will give FUCK ALL back (they will find excuses like "cannot find homes for settlers etc", delay then cause deadlock and partition occurs).

Other crucial issues:
-On-the-ground EU military force and UN-res (under Ch 7 auhtorising force) to protect both communities AND territory split in case of deadlock/ conflict

-Safeguarding our sovereign UN and EU member status in the case of such deadlock/ de facto partition. Papadopoulos's fear was that in this (highly likely) scenario, under the Annan plan, we would be left without this status i.e. just an unrecognised GC community with no voice anywhere (pretty much like the "TRNC" today).

[Nikitas]

"It will be very democratic in each zone.
One man one vote, and we'll even allow the women to vote
What more do you want?"

Well YFred, a federal system as exists in other places in the west, you know, second rate countries like USA, Germany, Switzerland, Canada, Australia, and other such federations.

I note that you put in the qualifier "in each zone" so you can prserve your usual "TCs are a special case" scenario.

The Americans went through a civil war that far exceeds our clashes in terms of casualties, yet no state in the union is considered a special case. Americans vote for their central government via one man one vote system.

This insistence of TCs that they are a special case and therefore there must be a complicated system circumventing democratic principles is sickening.

[Paphitis]

"It will be very democratic in each zone.
One man one vote, and we'll even allow the women to vote
What more do you want?"

Well YFred, a federal system as exists in other places in the west, you know, second rate countries like USA, Germany, Switzerland, Canada, Australia, and other such federations.

I note that you put in the qualifier "in each zone" so you can prserve your usual "TCs are a special case" scenario.

The Americans went through a civil war that far exceeds our clashes in terms of casualties, yet no state in the union is considered a special case. Americans vote for their central government via one man one vote system.

This insistence of TCs that they are a special case and therefore there must be a complicated system circumventing democratic principles is sickening.

A Confederacy such as that in Switzerland may not suit Cyprus because it may just facilitate permanent partition down the track. This may not be such a critical issue provided the territory distribution is fairly allocated in proportion to demographics (82-18).

The constitutions of USA, Canada, Australia and Germany are excellent models that provide for strong central Governance, similar to what you would find in other Republics.

[Me Ed]

Very simple what the TC's said always .......

Bi-zonal ,Bi-communal federal state with equal power sharing .... very simple .....

What a lot of TCs probably do not realise (and come to that most GCs), is that if the UK is anything to go by, in the RoC around 75% of the laws come from Brussels.

What the TCs are also voting for is joining the EU and instruments such as the ECJ and the ECHR.

I hope any solution is just fair and based on mutual respect.

[EPSILON]

Do not rush.

Because of December 2009 EU / Turkey report.

1.Turkey trying to solve Kurds problem
2. Turkish pm visited Prigipos Island alongewith the Greek Patriarch!!
3.Turkey trying to solve Cyprus problem before the end of the year

On Jan 10, 2010 all above will dissapear and Turkish policies will continue as usual/

[Nikitas]

Paphitis said:

".....because it may just facilitate permanent partition down the track."

We are fooling ourselves if we think that de facto partition is not part a) of the final game plan with a total takeover of the island being the ultimate goal. No matter what we do and what the settlement plan says, the turkification of the north has slid past the point of no return. Changes in the demographic makeup of the population, the changes in place names, in the education system and a host of other facets of social organization show this is how things are.

There is no valid reason to think that a settlement will lead to reintegration of one Cyprus. It will simply give Turkey the chance to reinforce and legalise the process while building claims on the whole island. At some point those claims will become louder and no doubt supported by the usual friends and allies, will assume the status of "legal and valid" claims.

.

[Paphitis]

Paphitis said:

".....because it may just facilitate permanent partition down the track."

We are fooling ourselves if we think that de facto partition is not part a) of the final game plan with a total takeover of the island being the ultimate goal. No matter what we do and what the settlement plan says, the turkification of the north has slid past the point of no return. Changes in the demographic makeup of the population, the changes in place names, in the education system and a host of other facets of social organization show this is how things are.

There is no valid reason to think that a settlement will lead to reintegration of one Cyprus. It will simply give Turkey the chance to reinforce and legalise the process while building claims on the whole island. At some point those claims will become louder and no doubt supported by the usual friends and allies, will assume the status of "legal and valid" claims.

.

So true Nikitas!

And the worst thing of all is that our silly leaders have been engaging the Turks and assisting them to legalise their gains...the end result could very well be the loss of the whole island.

And to top it all off, we have the apologists who in the end will be our final destruction, which means the war thesis, at the right time and at the most opportune moment could well be our only chance for salvation and survival on the island.....

Now this is all very easy for someone as far away as Australia to say....but when it comes to the survival of our civilization on the island, I will be over there in a flash...

[MR-from-NG]

Paphitis said:

".....because it may just facilitate permanent partition down the track."

We are fooling ourselves if we think that de facto partition is not part a) of the final game plan with a total takeover of the island being the ultimate goal. No matter what we do and what the settlement plan says, the turkification of the north has slid past the point of no return. Changes in the demographic makeup of the population, the changes in place names, in the education system and a host of other facets of social organization show this is how things are.

There is no valid reason to think that a settlement will lead to reintegration of one Cyprus. It will simply give Turkey the chance to reinforce and legalise the process while building claims on the whole island. At some point those claims will become louder and no doubt supported by the usual friends and allies, will assume the status of "legal and valid" claims.

.

So true Nikitas!

And the worst thing of all is that our silly leaders have been engaging the Turks and assisting them to legalise their gains...the end result could very well be the loss of the whole island.

And to top it all off, we have the apologists who in the end will be our final destruction, which means the war thesis, at the right time and at the most opportune moment could well be our only chance for salvation and survival on the island.....

Now this is all very easy for someone as far away as Australia to say....but when it comes to the survival of our civilization on the island, I will be over there in a flash...

And one ugly fat Greek flies back to Aussieland in a body bag.