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[Kifeas]

thats why im saying a bizonal solution is not the answer

GCs will want to go back to their villages and the TCs will be outnumbered again

however, if TCs were to go back to their villages, which usually are grouped together, then a multizonal solution could be ther answer....just a suggestion

Im not trying to be antiTC here, but it is just the truth...

Dhavlos, I see the point you are trying to make with the suggestion of a multi-zonal federation. I do not think that such a concept would ever be acceptable by the TC side. However, a concept of bi-zonal federation with one large area for each constituent state and 1 or 2 smaller areas within the boundaries of each other’s States would have not been a bad idea, in order to facilitate the property and settlement issues. For example, the TC State could have the entire area of Lefka (Lefke,) as a separate canton within the boundaries of the GC State and the GC could have the area of Karpasia (Dipkarpaz,) as a separate canton within the boundaries of the TC State. The same can happen perhaps with another set of such areas.

However, I am sure such ideas would be obstructed by the Turkish military, claiming security reasons. They took this approach before when the return of Karpasia was proposed in one of the early maps of A-plan 1. They also wanted a straighter boundary line between the two Constituent States, etc.

It all boils down to what I have said previously. The TC /Turkish side did not fully digest what the new state of affairs would mean. They somehow try to secure a continuation of what they came down to consider as their earned right as a result of the Turkish invasion and occupation, which is the institutionalization (legalization) of a separate State –be it under the “TRNC” name or under the “TCCS” name. If one reads the Turkish press will realize that immediately. Even when the refer to the post-solution state of affairs, they still refer to the TC state with the existing TRNC name, showing clearly that it practically makes no difference in their perception.

[Dhavlos]

Turkey (( * said:

Wait what do you mean back to their villages, where are these villages be situated?
- And you said "I am not trying to be anti-TC here, but it is just the truth...", did you mean you are an anti-TC but not trying to be one???

What you need to understand is that the TC are not historically only situated in the north. If you look at the map ive posted on 'MY SOLUTION', they are infact spread fairly evenly round cyprus(except for Trodos mountains).

What im saying 'the truth' is, is that the TCs will always be outnumebred because they are not situated historically in one area of cyprus. in the end, GCs will be able to settle in the north, back to their own villages and the TCs will be outnumebred. I feel sorry for the TCs because they are stuck really. If they want complete security in the sense of what i think they would like, then the only solution would be partition, but that is not going to be accepted.

[Viewpoint]

Dhavlos

What you need to understand is that the TC are not historically only situated in the north.

This is the second time you have stated this but you conveniently forget that for 31 years all (TCs) we have known is the north as our country, the older generations may recognize and sense that the south south is also theirs but in reality the majority of TCs will never go back to ancestral lands this is not because we are any less Cypriots it is for the simple reasons of security, language and discrimination. The only solution TCs would even consider is based on a BBF with a limited population of GCs allowed to reside in the TCCS. TCs do not believe in the story of GCs wanting to return to their ancestral lands they still feel it is a line and the real reasons are purely for profit (selling off land or exploiting the greta potential) or moves to saturate and merge the north with the south reducing us into a minority status with no real political weight.

[Dhavlos]

This is the second time you have stated this but you conveniently forget that for 31 years all (TCs) we have known is the north as our country, the older generations may recognize and sense that the south south is also theirs but in reality the majority of TCs will never go back to ancestral lands this is not because we are any less Cypriots it is for the simple reasons of security, language and discrimination. The only solution TCs would even consider is based on a BBF with a limited population of GCs allowed to reside in the TCCS. TCs do not believe in the story of GCs wanting to return to their ancestral lands they still feel it is a line and the real reasons are purely for profit (selling off land or exploiting the greta potential) or moves to saturate and merge the north with the south reducing us into a minority status with no real political weight.

i didnt know that, sorry. I dont think it is wholey 'correct' for you guys to feel the GCs just want their homes back to sell. Im sure there are some, but many, especially my family, would love to be able to go back...if anything, it would be like a second/holiday home for them, rather than something we would sell. It is a part of our history/ancestry, and we are proud of where we are from. We would not sell it just for a profit.

As for others, i cannot say.

As for political weight, i dont know if you have seen my ideas for a government, but basically, at least half+1 of TC deputies and half+1 GC deputies would have to agree for legislation to pass. Look for more on MY CYPRUS SOLUTION....its more in depth there

[metecyp]

They somehow try to secure a continuation of what they came down to consider as their earned right as a result of the Turkish invasion and occupation, which is the institutionalization (legalization) of a separate State –be it under the “TRNC” name or under the “TCCS” name

Kifeas, you're somewhat right and wrong here. You're right because 99% of TC cannot accept nothing but a bizonal federation. Having our own area to administer, having our own police, having our own schools are all very important to us. This mainly stems from the fact that we are officially excluded from these since 1963 simply because GCs were not satisfied with what they signed (or forced to sign as you might say) in 1960 and they wanted to change it without the consent of TCs . Now, in a future agreement, GCs will probably not like it again (simply because it won't be one-man-one-vote) and if GCs want to change the constitution again, we don't want to end up stateless again if the world decides to recognize your side as the legitimate government of the island. So that's where the need for an entity that belongs solely to us comes in and you can't blame us for that because the idea of a bizonal bicommunal federation is a direct result of the exclusion in 1963-1974, Greek coup and the Turkish intervention afterwards. So, yes, we earned this right after the Turkish intervention. So you're right in here.

But you're wrong that we want the continuation of a TRNC like state. We really do not need an independent state on our own. Here, by we, I mean the ordinary people. You might hear some politicians that still favor TRNC but afterall, it's the TC people that will vote for Yes in a future referandum.

We want to have something (TCCS) with some seperation from GCCS in order to feel secure that we won't be kicked out of the government if things don't work out because we'll at least have our own entity and nobody can take that away from us. But the degree of dependance/independance of this state from the GCCS state our the federal Cypriot state is debatable. We're not specific about this but I can tell you for sure that it's definetely not legalized TRNC.

[Kifeas]

Kifeas, you're somewhat right and wrong here. You're right because 99% of TC cannot accept nothing but a bizonal federation. Having our own area to administer, having our own police, having our own schools are all very important to us.

I want to explain something here which stems from the use of the word “own” area that you used. The fact that the TC State will be a federal territory of Cyprus Republic and the fact that there will be a considerable percentage of GCs that will have permanent residence ad political rights in this area, doesn’t make it, in my opinion, so much your own area, in the sense that you are trying to give to the term.

I do not know what you mean precisely, but if this is the approach that the TC side wants to take, then I believe we have a serious problem here. The GCs have historical roots there, as much as they have in the south. The north constitutes an integral part of our historical and cultural identity. There are tens if not hundreds of monuments and historical places that associate themselves with our identity and historical consciousness as a GC community. We have every right to be concerned as to what happens in the north, as much as we have in the south and to simply say that the north (meaning the TCCS) will be considered by the TCs as there “own” area, is very bothersome even as a thought. It is one thing for us to agree or accept that there should be certain arrangements and provisions that will ensure a TC majority in the TCCS, and another thing to accept that this area is not ours any more but it belongs to the TCs.

This mainly stems from the fact that we are officially excluded from these since 1963 simply because GCs were not satisfied with what they signed (or forced to sign as you might say) in 1960 and they wanted to change it without the consent of TCs .

You are not officially excluded but unofficially.

Now, in a future agreement, GCs will probably not like it again (simply because it won't be one-man-one-vote) and if GCs want to change the constitution again, we don't want to end up stateless again if the world decides to recognize your side as the legitimate government of the island.

There is a very critical difference between the 1960 agreements and the present new agreement prospect. There are many more but I will not touch on term now. The Critical difference stems from the fact that the 1960 “agreements” were not the product of negotiations between the two communities and that they have never been approved by any public referendum. They 1960 constitution and the rest of the so-called agreements were the product of negotiations between Greece, Turkey and Britain, with very little consultation and even less consideration of the GC positions. The Present case is substantially different, at least as the GC side is concerned. Greece is simply outside of the process regarding what we negotiate and more importantly what we will agree with in the end. Unfortunately though, the same cannot be said about the TC community, as we all understand the critical role that Turkey plays in the situation. Therefore, as far as the GC are concerned, rest sure that what the people (GCs) will accept in the referendum, will be what we will stick to, unless of course we mutually agree again to change certain parameters in the future.

So that's where the need for an entity that belongs solely to us comes in and you can't blame us for that because the idea of a bizonal bicommunal federation is a direct result of the exclusion in 1963-1974, Greek coup and the Turkish intervention afterwards. So, yes, we earned this right after the Turkish intervention. So you're right in here.

Again this concept of an entity that will solely belong to you! Mete, this is not how we understand it, and I gave my explanations above. If this is how you (TCs) understand and want it to be, then we might as well go for a partition on the basis of 82%-18%. In this way, we will not have to suffer the hassle of disproportionately sharing power with you in any central government and also, we can easily build this 6 meter separating wall around so that we cannot physically see that part of Cyprus any more and eventually (hopefully) forget about it’s existence and consequently remove it from our heart and soul. You have (TCs) to understand one simple issue. For us the north, as well as the south, is not just more properties and houses or just an extra piece of land. It is something far more important. It is part of our soul. It is part of our identity. It is our history.

But you're wrong that we want the continuation of a TRNC like state. We really do not need an independent state on our own. Here, by we, I mean the ordinary people. You might hear some politicians that still favor TRNC but afterall, it's the TC people that will vote for Yes in a future referandum.

But it is the TC politicians and Turkey that will be negotiating. You will say "yes" or "no" in the referendum, upon the product that they will put in frond of you. Your role is more passive than energetic!

We want to have something (TCCS) with some seperation from GCCS in order to feel secure that we won't be kicked out of the government if things don't work out because we'll at least have our own entity and nobody can take that away from us. But the degree of dependance/independance of this state from the GCCS state our the federal Cypriot state is debatable. We're not specific about this but I can tell you for sure that it's definetely not legalized TRNC.

Can you explain to me what percentage of the total population of the -to be- TC State would you accept to originate from the GC community, with full political rights, based on your above assumptions? According to the way you described them, the answer should be none! Zero percent!

[MicAtCyp]

Last post of page 2 and first 7 posts of page 3 are meaningless one line posts that contributed
to nothing. At least one of them does not even make sense. I think I am going to review my decision to turn down admin’s proposal to me.....

*********************

Personally, what makes me fearful of living as a minority in a GC majority is the GC mentality that "We're the majority". This mentality ........

Very well explained Metecyp. The problem is however that your personal opinion contradicts with the opinion of a substantial percentage of TCs. That percentage may not be more than 50% (I estimate it around 40%) but mind you it includes your elitists and all their contacts in Ankara, in the deep state and in the Army. It is a percentage that has more than 80% of the power in all fields!!!

So I wonder if you can reply to the original question of Kifeas on a non personal basis. If yes then I will love to hear you.

If everything goes ok in a BBF, we would eventually turn into a unitary state in the future anyway. I mean if everyone is happy about the situation and if we end up having a true Cypriot nation, then why do we need divisions?

This seems like a logical argument. The problem is that every stabilised situation eventually creates strong interests that opose to any change.So if we eventually have a stabilised BBF system any change from that to a Unitary state would be practically impossible.

Furthermore I don't even think the BBF is a system that can ever get stabilised! Slowly slowly It will evolve to 2 separate states, 2 separate neighbouring societies, two separate economies etc.The existing interest groups will link more and more the Tcs with Turkey and the GCs with Greece.It will be a miracle if this BBF evolves to anything else other than final partition in the end.

The only system imo that can quarantee an evolution to a real united cyprus is one which concentrates ALL the political power (or at lease 80% of it) to one authority.
Be it the Government in a Unitary State or the Central State in a Federal State.I would personally go upto as 50-50 power sharing at the top administrative positions (of a Unitary or Fed State) to achieve this goal.