Cyprus-Forum.com

[shahmaran]

I'm pretty sure we also have Church's in use on our side, and some in good condition.

I have 2 Church waiting to be fixed in Lefke if anyone is interested

I also remember a Chapel on the way to Lefke which was around for many years and one day it became a roundabout

Shame really, it was a cute one...

Well, I have travelled quite a bit in the north and the only Orthodox church that I have personally witnessed to be in good condition is Agios Mamas in Morphou - which officially is an 'icon museum'. This church is well hidden away and it took me some time to find it. Venetian heritage has fared better and one can encounter churches from this era in the old part of Famagusta. In terms of protecting the religious heritage left behind by the other community, the south - even if not all mosques have survived here - wins hands down in my book. A casual visitor to the north nowadays sees little visible evidence that many Orthodox Christians once inhabited this space. I do not think this is a mere coincidence - it is part of a slow psychological war of attrition that the Turkish deep state has been waging here for decades to remove all traces of Cypriotness and prepare the way for annexation. Contrast this to the experience of the casual visitor to Limassol who strolls along the western end of St Andrew's Street, one of the main shopping streets, and cannot avoid being reminded of the bicommunal past of this city when they catch sight of the minaret of the Grand Mosque.

Tim that is absurd.

Basically what you are saying is that "the number of destroyed and still standing Churches or Mosques" decide whether who is worse?

So if there are more Churches destroyed on the North, that means it is a systematic policy to destroy all the evidence that the Christians used to live there, but when there are less Mosques destroyed in the South, that just means they are old?

What kind of twisted logic is that?

First of all to know for sure we need to know the exact number of Mosques and Churches on both sides and the number of how many still actually exist today, and boil it down to a ratio, and then you can say one side has done more damage.

If you have more Churches and you have lost more Churches, when we have a few Mosques and have lost less Mosques that does not mean one side has destroyed more and more importantly it cannot possibly mean that one side actually has a "policy" to do so and the other side does not.

It just means both sides have been destroying each others heritage and you cannot only blame one side while ignoring the doings of your own side.

Plus there is that other Church in Karpaz up and standing.

You surprise me as one who has recently said:

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... c&start=40

“Long term agenda working like a charm, what more can one ask for?!”

By ‘agenda’ I understand that you are speaking of the campaign that the Turkish deep state has been waging in Cyprus since August 1958. (For more information see the article ‘Othello’nun güzel ülkesi Kıbrıs’ by Turkish historian Ayşe Hür published in Taraf on 27.07.2008 http://www.tumgazeteler.com/?a=3942699
)

Tim, it was just a sarcastic reply to Nikitas who said;

Independence from Turkey. You know, like GCs have established independece from Greece. But I am not too hopeful for you YFred. Erosion of the TC community has gone unchecked for two generations.

I was, of course, talking about the TC community erroding and many GC's being happy to see it.

I hate to believe that I come across as being a GC hater, I have not once made such a remark nor have I once opened a thread that would attack them, unlike %90 of the threads here that are specifically designed to attack us.

I could not possibly hate any group of people simply for their race or ethnicity or anything else, it is a notion that is way beyond my understanding.

[shahmaran]

Tim, as to the rest of what you say, I know there are 2 still standing up in Lefke, very near my house.

Also in Morphou and of course there are a few in Famagusta, although one was turned into a Mosque, these are just the ones I have seen myself, as I was never really curious enough to specifically go out and search.

But I am sure there are more.

If as you say, all this was "systematic" then why have they not destroyed them all?

Even the British symbols still exist, there is one right in the middle of Lefke town center.

[Tim Drayton]

I'm pretty sure we also have Church's in use on our side, and some in good condition.

I have 2 Church waiting to be fixed in Lefke if anyone is interested

I also remember a Chapel on the way to Lefke which was around for many years and one day it became a roundabout

Shame really, it was a cute one...

Well, I have travelled quite a bit in the north and the only Orthodox church that I have personally witnessed to be in good condition is Agios Mamas in Morphou - which officially is an 'icon museum'. This church is well hidden away and it took me some time to find it. Venetian heritage has fared better and one can encounter churches from this era in the old part of Famagusta. In terms of protecting the religious heritage left behind by the other community, the south - even if not all mosques have survived here - wins hands down in my book. A casual visitor to the north nowadays sees little visible evidence that many Orthodox Christians once inhabited this space. I do not think this is a mere coincidence - it is part of a slow psychological war of attrition that the Turkish deep state has been waging here for decades to remove all traces of Cypriotness and prepare the way for annexation. Contrast this to the experience of the casual visitor to Limassol who strolls along the western end of St Andrew's Street, one of the main shopping streets, and cannot avoid being reminded of the bicommunal past of this city when they catch sight of the minaret of the Grand Mosque.

Tim that is absurd.

Basically what you are saying is that "the number of destroyed and still standing Churches or Mosques" decide whether who is worse?

So if there are more Churches destroyed on the North, that means it is a systematic policy to destroy all the evidence that the Christians used to live there, but when there are less Mosques destroyed in the South, that just means they are old?

What kind of twisted logic is that?

First of all to know for sure we need to know the exact number of Mosques and Churches on both sides and the number of how many still actually exist today, and boil it down to a ratio, and then you can say one side has done more damage.

If you have more Churches and you have lost more Churches, when we have a few Mosques and have lost less Mosques that does not mean one side has destroyed more and more importantly it cannot possibly mean that one side actually has a "policy" to do so and the other side does not.

It just means both sides have been destroying each others heritage and you cannot only blame one side while ignoring the doings of your own side.

Plus there is that other Church in Karpaz up and standing.

You surprise me as one who has recently said:

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... c&start=40

“Long term agenda working like a charm, what more can one ask for?!”

By ‘agenda’ I understand that you are speaking of the campaign that the Turkish deep state has been waging in Cyprus since August 1958. (For more information see the article ‘Othello’nun güzel ülkesi Kıbrıs’ by Turkish historian Ayşe Hür published in Taraf on 27.07.2008 http://www.tumgazeteler.com/?a=3942699
)

Tim, it was just a sarcastic reply to Nikitas who said;

Independence from Turkey. You know, like GCs have established independece from Greece. But I am not too hopeful for you YFred. Erosion of the TC community has gone unchecked for two generations.

I was, of course, talking about the TC community erroding and many GC's being happy to see it.

I hate to believe that I come across as being a GC hater, I have not once made such a remark nor have I once opened a thread that would attack them, unlike %90 of the threads here that are specifically designed to attack us.

I could not possibly hate any group of people simply for their race or ethnicity or anything else, it is a notion that is way beyond my understanding.

I do not believe that for a minute. Long term, I only see two alternatives for the TCs: full annexation by Turkey or being part of an independant Cyprus. You are one who supports the first option and is very well aware of what needs to be done to achieve this. As a rational human being, this is your prerogative. I don't have any problem with that.

[Piratis]

I could not possibly hate any group of people simply for their race or ethnicity or anything else, it is a notion that is way beyond my understanding.

So except from a fascist racist, you are also a hypocrite. Congratulations!

You excuse and support the indiscriminate ethnic cleansing of 100s of thousands of innocent people from their homeland and the establishment of some "Turkish Republic" on territory which is the homeland of 5 times more GCs than TCs. Instead of equality of all citizens you support the racist discrimination of people based on their religion and language. You support segregation along ethnic lines, even when you have to ethnically cleanse people from the lands of their forefathers in order to achieve it. You don't accept democracy like it exists in all other democratic countries, including multi-ethnic ones, because GCs are "evil" and while democracy can function fine in all other countries, it can not function with the "evil" GCs...

And then you say you are not racist? Say it again. The only thing that you will prove is that except from racist you are also a hypocrite.

[shahmaran]

I'm pretty sure we also have Church's in use on our side, and some in good condition.

I have 2 Church waiting to be fixed in Lefke if anyone is interested

I also remember a Chapel on the way to Lefke which was around for many years and one day it became a roundabout

Shame really, it was a cute one...

Well, I have travelled quite a bit in the north and the only Orthodox church that I have personally witnessed to be in good condition is Agios Mamas in Morphou - which officially is an 'icon museum'. This church is well hidden away and it took me some time to find it. Venetian heritage has fared better and one can encounter churches from this era in the old part of Famagusta. In terms of protecting the religious heritage left behind by the other community, the south - even if not all mosques have survived here - wins hands down in my book. A casual visitor to the north nowadays sees little visible evidence that many Orthodox Christians once inhabited this space. I do not think this is a mere coincidence - it is part of a slow psychological war of attrition that the Turkish deep state has been waging here for decades to remove all traces of Cypriotness and prepare the way for annexation. Contrast this to the experience of the casual visitor to Limassol who strolls along the western end of St Andrew's Street, one of the main shopping streets, and cannot avoid being reminded of the bicommunal past of this city when they catch sight of the minaret of the Grand Mosque.

Tim that is absurd.

Basically what you are saying is that "the number of destroyed and still standing Churches or Mosques" decide whether who is worse?

So if there are more Churches destroyed on the North, that means it is a systematic policy to destroy all the evidence that the Christians used to live there, but when there are less Mosques destroyed in the South, that just means they are old?

What kind of twisted logic is that?

First of all to know for sure we need to know the exact number of Mosques and Churches on both sides and the number of how many still actually exist today, and boil it down to a ratio, and then you can say one side has done more damage.

If you have more Churches and you have lost more Churches, when we have a few Mosques and have lost less Mosques that does not mean one side has destroyed more and more importantly it cannot possibly mean that one side actually has a "policy" to do so and the other side does not.

It just means both sides have been destroying each others heritage and you cannot only blame one side while ignoring the doings of your own side.

Plus there is that other Church in Karpaz up and standing.

You surprise me as one who has recently said:

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... c&start=40

“Long term agenda working like a charm, what more can one ask for?!”

By ‘agenda’ I understand that you are speaking of the campaign that the Turkish deep state has been waging in Cyprus since August 1958. (For more information see the article ‘Othello’nun güzel ülkesi Kıbrıs’ by Turkish historian Ayşe Hür published in Taraf on 27.07.2008 http://www.tumgazeteler.com/?a=3942699
)

Tim, it was just a sarcastic reply to Nikitas who said;

Independence from Turkey. You know, like GCs have established independece from Greece. But I am not too hopeful for you YFred. Erosion of the TC community has gone unchecked for two generations.

I was, of course, talking about the TC community erroding and many GC's being happy to see it.

I hate to believe that I come across as being a GC hater, I have not once made such a remark nor have I once opened a thread that would attack them, unlike %90 of the threads here that are specifically designed to attack us.

I could not possibly hate any group of people simply for their race or ethnicity or anything else, it is a notion that is way beyond my understanding.

I do not believe that for a minute. Long term, I only see two alternatives for the TCs: full annexation by Turkey or being part of an independant Cyprus. You are one who supports the first option and is very well aware of what needs to be done to achieve this. As a rational human being, this is your prerogative. I don't have any problem with that.

Where have I claimed that I want full annexation by Turkey?

This is where many GC's go wrong, they think that because we don't cave in with their political pressures and isolation's we must be wanting to be a part of Turkey.

This ideology is what perpetuates the conflict.

Turkey does not want Cyprus, and we do not want to be a part of Turkey!

But this does not mean that we want to be a part of your racist government either.

Why is this so hard to see?

[shahmaran]

I could not possibly hate any group of people simply for their race or ethnicity or anything else, it is a notion that is way beyond my understanding.

So except from a fascist racist, you are also a hypocrite. Congratulations!

You excuse and support the indiscriminate ethnic cleansing of 100s of thousands of innocent people from their homeland and the establishment of some "Turkish Republic" on territory which is the homeland of 5 times more GCs than TCs. Instead of equality of all citizens you support the racist discrimination of people based on their religion and language. You support segregation along ethnic lines, even when you have to ethnically cleanse people from the lands of their forefathers in order to achieve it. You don't accept democracy like it exists in all other democratic countries, including multi-ethnic ones, because GCs are "evil" and while democracy can function fine in all other countries, it can not function with the "evil" GCs...

And then you say you are not racist? Say it again. The only thing that you will prove is that except from racist you are also a hypocrite.

This is just your ignorant and pathetic interpretation Piratis, get over it.

When I say I do not want to be a part of the RoC under certain conditions, you immediately assume that I must support everything else you mentioned, so you can start with your typical blame-game.

It is you who is so racist that you would force people to live under your own ethnic dominance, why are you still talking, has this not been made clear enough?!

[Piratis]

This is where many GC's go wrong, they think that because we don't cave in with their political pressures and isolation's we must be wanting to be a part of Turkey.

I never "went wrong" like those "many GCs". I got you right. What you want from Turkey is to just annihilate the majority of Cypriots from north Cyprus, use her military might to enforce partition by violating the sovergnity of RoC, and then just gift to you what she stolen from us and let you do whatever you want with it as if it was yours.

[Piratis]

I could not possibly hate any group of people simply for their race or ethnicity or anything else, it is a notion that is way beyond my understanding.

So except from a fascist racist, you are also a hypocrite. Congratulations!

You excuse and support the indiscriminate ethnic cleansing of 100s of thousands of innocent people from their homeland and the establishment of some "Turkish Republic" on territory which is the homeland of 5 times more GCs than TCs. Instead of equality of all citizens you support the racist discrimination of people based on their religion and language. You support segregation along ethnic lines, even when you have to ethnically cleanse people from the lands of their forefathers in order to achieve it. You don't accept democracy like it exists in all other democratic countries, including multi-ethnic ones, because GCs are "evil" and while democracy can function fine in all other countries, it can not function with the "evil" GCs...

And then you say you are not racist? Say it again. The only thing that you will prove is that except from racist you are also a hypocrite.

This is just your ignorant and pathetic interpretation Piratis, get over it.

When I say I do not want to be a part of the RoC under certain conditions, you immediately assume that I must support everything else you mentioned, so you can start with your typical blame-game.

It is you who is so racist that you would force people to live under your own ethnic dominance, why are you still talking, has this not been made clear enough?!

What "certain conditions" List them. Lets see if they do not include racist things like segregation and racist discrimination.

And when did I force anybody to live under our "ethnic dominance"? What I want is democracy and equality of all citizens as they exist in all other democratic countries, including multi-ethnic ones. Are those other countries "racist" as well? If you have a problem that your ethnic group is a minority in Cyprus then you should blame your ancestors for bringing you here because they are the ones who had (and continue to have) as an aim to dominate us, and not the other way around. Also I hope you are willing to accept the same "conditions" to apply for the Greeks in Turkey. Or do you support double standards?

[Tim Drayton]

Tim, as to the rest of what you say, I know there are 2 still standing up in Lefke, very near my house.

Also in Morphou and of course there are a few in Famagusta, although one was turned into a Mosque, these are just the ones I have seen myself, as I was never really curious enough to specifically go out and search.

But I am sure there are more.

If as you say, all this was "systematic" then why have they not destroyed them all?

Even the British symbols still exist, there is one right in the middle of Lefke town center.

I have been to Lefke. Can you please describe where these churches are and I will make a great effort to find them next time I go there? (Genuine request, no sarcasm involved.)

What I feel to be systematic is the way that a specific image has been created that - yes, the Venetians, the British, the Romans were here - but Orthodox Greek Cypriots were never here. It is harder to find GC relics without making a deliberate effort, without going off the beaten track. Maybe some of the things I have mentioned are pure coincidence. Maybe not. I can't help feeling that it is one tiny plank within a large, long-term plan that is being masterfully executed.

[shahmaran]

Tim, as to the rest of what you say, I know there are 2 still standing up in Lefke, very near my house.

Also in Morphou and of course there are a few in Famagusta, although one was turned into a Mosque, these are just the ones I have seen myself, as I was never really curious enough to specifically go out and search.

But I am sure there are more.

If as you say, all this was "systematic" then why have they not destroyed them all?

Even the British symbols still exist, there is one right in the middle of Lefke town center.

I have been to Lefke. Can you please describe where these churches are and I will make a great effort to find them next time I go there? (Genuine request, no sarcasm involved.)

What I feel to be systematic is the way that a specific image has been created that - yes, the Venetians, the British, the Romans were here - but Orthodox Greek Cypriots were never here. It is harder to find GC relics without making a deliberate effort, without going off the beaten track. Maybe some of the things I have mentioned are pure coincidence. Maybe not. I can't help feeling that it is one tiny plank within a large, long-term plan that is being masterfully executed.

That is funny Tim, because that is exactly what I feel about the GC's and I am not being sarcastic, I always feel the GC's have been pursuing a long term agenda which is very slowly but masterfully executed, in order to get rid of us or have total control over the island.

Anyhow they are just feelings and opinions.

So to come to Lefke, as you know, you would be driving along the sea side and along the remains of CMC mining, you take a left from Gemikonağı (Iksero!?) and as you are driving up towards Lefke, you would cross a roundabout, which is where the old Chapel used to be, was very small but not there anymore.

If you keep driving up and as you enter Lefke you will come to a park, from there you can either continue to drive up into the town center or you can hang a left and drive towards what we call Karşıyaka, which is also the way to Çamlıköy.

On the way to Karşıyaka you will come to a bridge that crosses a riverbed, after you cross the bridge but before you start going up hill again, if you look up you will see 2 Churches, well 1 Church and another building that belongs to it but looks less like a Church.

The constructions are fully there intact, but of course there is nothing else.

If you come some day I would be more than happy to assist you as I would love to know their story as well.